New clinical question...

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sdn1977

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So - guy comes in with an rx for Mucomyst 20%. Pt to take 600mg orally at 8PM tonight & another 600mg orally at 10PM. Dilute as directed. (written by a cardiologist).

Pt can speak rudimentary english (russian or a dialect primary).

He is due for a procedure tomoroow AM @ 6 (also got an rx for ntg 0.4mg). What is the procedure?

What would the mucomyst do for the procedure?

Would you know how to fill this rx & properly label & counsel the guy?

Just some food for ambulatory folks out there....
 
So - guy comes in with an rx for Mucomyst 20%. Pt to take 600mg orally at 8PM tonight & another 600mg orally at 10PM. Dilute as directed. (written by a cardiologist).

Pt can speak rudimentary english (russian or a dialect primary).

He is due for a procedure tomoroow AM @ 6 (also got an rx for ntg 0.4mg). What is the procedure?

What would the mucomyst do for the procedure?

Would you know how to fill this rx & properly label & counsel the guy?

Just some food for ambulatory folks out there....

Elective cardiac catheterization

Acetylcysteine is used to protect the kidneys from radiocontrast induced nephropathy. It is proposed to be an antioxidant and thus a free radical scavenger. That is an interesting dosing regimen though, as it is not even close to how any of the influential clinical trials that showed a benefit did it (Tepel et. al. NEJM 2000;343:180-84, Marenzi et. al. NEJM 2006;354:2773-82). However, it probably does not matter how you dose it, as the evidence of efficacy is not great. Much more importantly, there should be some hydration strategy for the patient leading up to the procedure, as it is the only proven way to prevent CIN. I am partial to giving this medication orally as opposed to intravenously, as the renoprotective effect may be dependent upon the high first pass metabolism of acetylcysteine where it is converted to another antioxidant, glutathione. Most trials have been performed using the medication via the oral route. And cost, of course

I'm not sold on the strategy, but if someone is going to use it, they should at least follow the "evidence." I have been waiting for a study looking at whether acetylcysteine influences the secretion of creatinine rather than actually conferring some protective effect on the nephron.

Not sure on how you would fill this in the ambulatory setting, but it is 200 mg/mL, so two syringes containing 3 mL of acetylcysteine would be a start.

I would counsel like every other retail pharmacist does out there, send my technician over and have them passively ask the patient if they have any questions with a pen in their hand pointing to the line where he needed to sign......
 
I don't have too much time to type...but I have seen Mucomyst dosed this way (600-1200 mg Q 12 hours for two doses prior to the procedure) for CIN. I guess since it's relatively inexpensive, they figure it's worth the try. I've also seen Theophylline, Aminophylline, diuretics and even ascorbic acid used.

As a pharmacist...it would also be a good idea to review their meds...check and see if they're on any concomitant nephrotoxic meds.

Definitely have to discuss hydration...and administration (i.e. squirting it into some soda/juice)
 
i see this one all the time. cardiac hospital.

i dont know, however, how i would explain to a patient with limited english how to take it and how to warn him about the taste.

how do you say "tastes like death personified" in spanish?
 
I was once told you can mix it with a coke....maybe that will help the taste? 😕
 
Well, I'm getting used to the available resources, but I found this:

http://druginfo.goldstandard.com/direct/getmono.asp?caller=AccPha&option=1&cpNum=7&monoType=full

Info accessed through Accesspharmacy.com. Says you can take with cola or diet cola. Could potentiate nitrates.

Possibly ineffective for cardiac catheterizations as prophylaxis for CIN.
(Coronary Artery Disease "Oral acetylcysteine does not protect renal function from moderate to high doses of intravenous radiographic contrast"
Catheterization and Cardiovascular Interventions
2003 58:336-341)

Depending on which articles you look at, may be it is effective.


Cath and Card article indicates ACE inhibitor usage may be a possible explanation of contradictory findings between their study and the findings of Tepel et al (mentioned in another post), see also http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/5/553
 
Sorry its been so long to get back!

I didn't have the strength the rx was written for so that added another complication (different quantity due to different strength).

This is what I did:

I called a few pharmacists around me who I knew who had pharmacists on staff who spoke russian. I figured if they could speak russian, they could get closer to the "hand gestures" & possible rudimentary education than I could do.

Yes - this is prescribed to protect the kidneys, but if it is effective or not is not the issue the day before the test. Now, I was dealing with the confidence the pt has in the prescriber & the test.

So - I found a pharmacy around who not only had the product (altho a different strength), but one who could speak & give some direction (bad taste & all!!!) & confidence to this patient.

Fortunately, I've been gone long enough that the pt has since had his cc & has a few blockages - none which require emergent tx. Yes - he has communicated this to me in his own way. He will have a stent or two placed, but was very, very grateful I found the drug he needed & someone who could explain it to him.

I guess the bottom line here is - get a network of colleagues who can help you. Even if they are the "competitors" - they can be tremendously helpful & your patient will be grateful & thankful.

Each one has come back to me. I try to help my colleagues as well. We are all in the same situation - helping patients!
 
I'm going to start posting the questions people ask me on rotations that I don't know on here. I just have to dress it up like I'm asking a clinical question just to spur discussion. You people will do my homework for me with a damned smile on your face.
 
I'm going to start posting the questions people ask me on rotations that I don't know on here. I just have to dress it up like I'm asking a clinical question just to spur discussion. You people will do my homework for me with a damned smile on your face.

No problem! Glad to help - after all - we want you out @ 2007.5!!!😀
 
Huh. Ok. You're like the Rho Chi members I used to get notes off of. Yes. Keep enabling me.

Ha!!!! Not a Rho Chi member - did they even have a chapter when I went?????

But,hey - we gotta get you out of school!!! You've got months & counting - the population of WV awaits your clinical skills.....:laugh:
 
I'm going to start posting the questions people ask me on rotations that I don't know on here. I just have to dress it up like I'm asking a clinical question just to spur discussion. You people will do my homework for me with a damned smile on your face.

I don't want to start another thread, but there are some things I have no idea about...

I got a question: ER giving IV dexamethasone orally to a child? I had not heard of that, but it sounds like common practice?

Another one - RN told me a NP told him to give IV zofran to a 2yo child - i asked why not give the odt? that is what he asked the NP, I guess she got another nurse to give it to the kid......
 
I don't want to start another thread, but there are some things I have no idea about...

I got a question: ER giving IV dexamethasone orally to a child? I had not heard of that, but it sounds like common practice?

Another one - RN told me a NP told him to give IV zofran to a 2yo child - i asked why not give the odt? that is what he asked the NP, I guess she got another nurse to give it to the kid......

Go ahead - start another thread - its a different clinical situation.

But, many intravenous forms can be given orally. For dexamethasone, not many hospital pharamcies have the oral solution so its just easier to squirt a bit of the IV stuff into grape juice & down the hatch.

The zofran ODT is very, very expensive. Give the IV to the child orally & be done. A 2 yo is not likely to let the ODT dissolve anyway - its just the nature of that age to chew & swallow....so swallow the cheaper stuff.

Can't do this with all products (augmentin for example...po/chewies/liquid) , but with these - its ok.
 
Ha!!!! Not a Rho Chi member - did they even have a chapter when I went?????

But,hey - we gotta get you out of school!!! You've got months & counting - the population of WV awaits your clinical skills.....:laugh:

I've got 28 more days on the job.

Though the only skills I have involve understanding, describing, and being able to explain complex pharmacology/medicinal chemistry to people - laymen and professionals. I suck at "clinical" stuff because I am disinterested. Now if it involves how the stuff works rather than how you use it....I'm your man. Hell, I actually used my medicinal chemistry knowledge to deduce which opioids are more likely to have cross-sensitivities with morphine just a few days ago. For some damn reason I still remember exactly what morphine looks like...and noted how Demerol, methadone, fentanyl, and sufentinil all are structurally dissimilar without the three linked carbon rings. When I pulled that **** out of my ass in front of the medical team after not saying a word for 1.5 weeks, everybody's head kind of jerks towards me with "WTF?" looks on their faces. The preceptor is like, "Uh....yeah!"

That was some funny ****.

but to be honest...this stuff ain't for me. I hate rounds. They are so lame. I can't fathom how it feels to be a patient with some rudimentary illness, then have 20 white coated people stroll into your room for a looksie. If it were me I'd be like, "What the hell is wrong with me I have 20 people coming to look at me!?! AHH! I'm gonna die!!!!" I hate following patients, too. Something about spending 8 hours looking at med orders and deciding if something is appropriate or optimal is banal to me. It's boring as hell....but, again, that's just me. I understand that many people like this...and for the love of God, I encourage them to persue it so I don't get stuck doing it. I'm starting to think 'ol Dr. Ponte I did acute care at WVU Hospitals with is right...I do need to go to grad school.
 
The zofran ODT is very, very expensive. Give the IV to the child orally & be done. A 2 yo is not likely to let the ODT dissolve anyway - its just the nature of that age to chew & swallow....so swallow the cheaper stuff.

Heck yeah! My uncle used to squirt IV Ativan into his liquor and make an interesting "cocktail". He's dead now. I'm actually not joking at all.
 
But, many intravenous forms can be given orally. For dexamethasone, not many hospital pharamcies have the oral solution so its just easier to squirt a bit of the IV stuff into grape juice & down the hatch.

The zofran ODT is very, very expensive. Give the IV to the child orally & be done. A 2 yo is not likely to let the ODT dissolve anyway - its just the nature of that age to chew & swallow....so swallow the cheaper stuff.

Pharmacoeconomics on a micro level. I used to wonder why we'd send up vanco vials for c-diff pt's without a tube, until I worked retail and found out how much vancocin costs.
 
Heck yeah! My uncle used to squirt IV Ativan into his liquor and make an interesting "cocktail". He's dead now. I'm actually not joking at all.

Where'd he get the IV ativan? That used to be expensive in "the day".

Who knows - he may have died of propylene glycol poisoning. The IV formulation has propylene glycol in it because the drug won't solubilize in an aqueous solution. So - it has just enough propylene glycol in it to keep it soluble - thats why you have to be careful making IV drips out of it.

But, none of that matters if it gets added as a mixter to some whiskey or gin. The drug can "come out" of solution & he just chomps it on down (or did - poor Uncle Ativan, may he rest his soul...). He sounds like my kinda guy:laugh:.
 
Pharmacoeconomics on a micro level. I used to wonder why we'd send up vanco vials for c-diff pt's without a tube, until I worked retail and found out how much vancocin costs.

We still don't have po vancocin capsules in my hospital location. The IV stuff works just fine - tastes like crap, but works.
 
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