New salary numbers

[odyssey2]

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Radiologist $alary Update 2020: Show Me The Money!

One of the most popular posts on The Reading Room is about radiologist compensation (FYI: it’s worth clicking on the link for the title of said blog post alone). Alas, as money still doesn’t grow on trees, it seemed like a good idea to give the post a facelift and update the numbers. Note: the […]

thereadingroom.mrionline.com

Median radiology salary numbers from AMGA and MGMA all around 500k for 2020. Are these numbers accurate?

 

[Dave1980]

How would any random person on the internet know more than that article?

 

[Neopolymath]

Who cares what the average is? As far as I know, the only paycheck number that matters is your own haha.

 

[2brads]

The numbers are legit.

 

[SeisK]

Radiologist $alary Update 2020: Show Me The Money!

One of the most popular posts on The Reading Room is about radiologist compensation (FYI: it’s worth clicking on the link for the title of said blog post alone). Alas, as money still doesn’t grow on trees, it seemed like a good idea to give the post a facelift and update the numbers. Note: the […]

thereadingroom.mrionline.com

Median radiology salary numbers from AMGA and MGMA all around 500k for 2020. Are these numbers accurate?

All of this could change very rapidly downward if congress doesn’t pass it’s medicare budget neutrality waiver.

 

[odyssey2]

All of this could change very rapidly downward if congress doesn’t pass it’s medicare budget neutrality waiver.

How likely is it to pass? Does it tend to be voted along partisan lines?

 

[2brads]

This doesn't seem to be a strongly partisan issue: Industry Groups, Legislators Hope to Reduce Impact of Medicare Budget Neutrality for 2021 – CIPROMS, Inc.

The Final Rule should have been published today in order to meet the 30 day requirement prior to implementation. I'm not sure where to find it though.

EDIT: Nevermind. The fee schedule was finalized without changes to the budget neutrality: CMS finalizes physician fee schedule, including controversial updates to E/M visits

 

[SeisK]

The introduced bill HR 8505 is bipartisan, but that isn't a guarantee of passage. Even still, it's only a 1-year waiver, it doesn't set a new standard budget.

 

[odyssey2]

The introduced bill HR 8505 is bipartisan, but that isn't a guarantee of passage. Even still, it's only a 1-year waiver, it doesn't set a new standard budget.

But the new CMS changes do reflect a new standard budget, yes?

 

[deleted941485]

But the new CMS changes do reflect a new standard budget, yes?

It’s reflects budget neutrality. Which is about a 10% cut.

 

[odyssey2]

So is the 10% cut here to stay?

 

[SeisK]

So is the 10% cut here to stay?

Depends on congress. Best case scenario is they vote for bipartisan budget waiver to pass before January, which seems iffy as it’s been thrown to committee.

Even if it passes, it’s a year-long waiver only. To make sure the standard is maintained will require additional legislation in 2021 be passed to make the 2020 budget the new standard. It may be that they proposed a 1-year waiver to make subsequent legislation more palatable a-la foot-in-the-door. I’m beginning to think that you can look forward to a radiology salary dip 10-20%, and that a lot of techs are gonna get laid off.

 

[Bgladney]

Speaking of incomes, what are starting ranges for a teleradiologist ?

 

[zero0]

Depends on congress. Best case scenario is they vote for bipartisan budget waiver to pass before January, which seems iffy as it’s been thrown to committee.

Even if it passes, it’s a year-long waiver only. To make sure the standard is maintained will require additional legislation in 2021 be passed to make the 2020 budget the new standard. It may be that they proposed a 1-year waiver to make subsequent legislation more palatable a-la foot-in-the-door. I’m beginning to think that you can look forward to a radiology salary dip 10-20%, and that a lot of techs are gonna get laid off.

Looks like midlevels got a nice juicy pay raise, right in line with the growing trend of anti-intellectualism in healthcare. Gotta hand it to the nursing lobby, they're doing it right, albeit with a helping hand from big business and big pharma. Meanwhile the AMA becomes less relevant with each passing day.

 

[2brads]

Nurse anesthetists were cut 9%.

 

[Vandalia]

Looks like midlevels got a nice juicy pay raise, right in line with the growing trend of anti-intellectualism in healthcare. Gotta hand it to the nursing lobby, they're doing it right, albeit with a helping hand from big business and big pharma. Meanwhile the AMA becomes less relevant with each passing day.

Actually, no.

There is no separate "midlevel" compensation. Midlevels get a pay boost since almost all of their billing is E/M codes, and that is where the money is going to boost primary care. There aren't many midlevels billing 33510's for CABGs.

 

[vm26]

Looks like midlevels got a nice juicy pay raise, right in line with the growing trend of anti-intellectualism in healthcare. Gotta hand it to the nursing lobby, they're doing it right, albeit with a helping hand from big business and big pharma. Meanwhile the AMA becomes less relevant with each passing day.

Apparently less than 20% of physicians belong to the AMA. Not quite sure how and why they function...This CMS move was just about re-allocating compensation from fields like Rads to those fields that do outpatient E/M of pt's. I may be wrong but a CRNA is going to take a hit (like the rest of anesthesiology) and so will the ER PA or the Rad PA. The outpatient NP/PA will get a positive bump.

It is disheartening how little control we have over this and I'm pessimistic that these cuts won't eventually happen and be permanent, and will ultimately be followed up by more cuts until we are a single payor system.

 

[maxxor]

Apparently less than 20% of physicians belong to the AMA. Not quite sure how and why they function...

They exist to sell CPT codes to payers and the government.

 

[bronx43]

Apparently less than 20% of physicians belong to the AMA. Not quite sure how and why they function...This CMS move was just about re-allocating compensation from fields like Rads to those fields that do outpatient E/M of pt's. I may be wrong but a CRNA is going to take a hit (like the rest of anesthesiology) and so will the ER PA or the Rad PA. The outpatient NP/PA will get a positive bump.

It is disheartening how little control we have over this and I'm pessimistic that these cuts won't eventually happen and be permanent, and will ultimately be followed up by more cuts until we are a single payor system.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm convinced that the government's strategy was always to make the system so anathema to physicians that we will collectively beg for single payer. I'm a prime beneficiary of these Medicare changes, but I realize this is nothing but a poisoned chalice.

 

[zero0]

Actually, no.

There is no separate "midlevel" compensation. Midlevels get a pay boost since almost all of their billing is E/M codes, and that is where the money is going to boost primary care. There aren't many midlevels billing 33510's for CABGs.

You make it seem like an accident

Granted CRNAs did take a hit, unavoidable for them unfortunately given the CPT-heavy nature of anesthesia

 

[betamale]

Do you guys get paid hourly? Curious. I was a rads resident years ago then switched. I remember the pay was $450k for academics in the east coast. I make $650k now but I work hard. I always wondered if I would have fared better if I stayed in rads.

 

[2brads]

Hourly jobs are usually locums. Some groups have hourly rates for things like moonlighting.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Looks like midlevels got a nice juicy pay raise, right in line with the growing trend of anti-intellectualism in healthcare. Gotta hand it to the nursing lobby, they're doing it right, albeit with a helping hand from big business and big pharma. Meanwhile the AMA becomes less relevant with each passing day.

Pretty sure other specialties got some decent buffs, if I recall, heme onc was a big winner.

 

[chudat]

Do you guys get paid hourly? Curious. I was a rads resident years ago then switched. I remember the pay was $450k for academics in the east coast. I make $650k now but I work hard. I always wondered if I would have fared better if I stayed in rads.

Lol if you make 650 thats more than 80%> of rads.

Def made the right choice switching to whatever it is ure in now.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

Do you guys get paid hourly? Curious. I was a rads resident years ago then switched. I remember the pay was $450k for academics in the east coast. I make $650k now but I work hard. I always wondered if I would have fared better if I stayed in rads.

What did you switch to? GI?

 

[betamale]

What did you switch to? GI?

ER which has a lot of disadvantages. I just wonder if I could've made more money doing IR for the same amount of effort.

 

[chudat]

ER which has a lot of disadvantages. I just wonder if I could've made more money doing IR for the same amount of effort.

For the same amt of effort maybe. But IR guys typically dont make 650 either unless theyre taking on more call or live in rural places.

Never heard of anybody switching from rads to ER. This is my first time.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Lol if you make 650 thats more than 80%> of rads.

are you kidding?

 

[vm26]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm convinced that the government's strategy was always to make the system so anathema to physicians that we will collectively beg for single payer. I'm a prime beneficiary of these Medicare changes, but I realize this is nothing but a poisoned chalice.

It certainly does feel that way. Strict budget neutrality with CMS given the way the govt. spends money on useless cr*p is laughable.

In a way we are already in a single payor (but not universal coverage) given that CMS sets rates and then private insurers follow suit.

HC is a mess but I can't see true reform until the cost of education and the med-malpractice industry are also addressed.

 

[betamale]

For the same amt of effort maybe. But IR guys typically dont make 650 either unless theyre taking on more call or live in rural places.

Never heard of anybody switching from rads to ER. This is my first time.

At least 3 of us did, diff programs

 

[zero0]

ER which has a lot of disadvantages. I just wonder if I could've made more money doing IR for the same amount of effort.

Hold on let me get my camera. I wanna get a picture of this unicorn

 

[chudat]

are you kidding?

Def not. Both real world and mgma numbers to support my post.

Maybe the jobs i've looked at woefully underpaid??!! Asking for a friend.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Def not. Both real world and mgma numbers to support my post.

Maybe the jobs i've looked at woefully underpaid??!! Asking for a friend.

Definetly not 80 percent. I would say 60-70 probs.

 

[SeisK]

Def not. Both real world and mgma numbers to support my post.

Maybe the jobs i've looked at woefully underpaid??!! Asking for a friend.

Distribution is bimodal. Academics is more relaxed with income in the upper 3’s to mid/upper 4’s.

PP 5-7 is typical when partnered.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

Distribution is bimodal. Academics is more relaxed with income in the upper 3’s to mid/upper 4’s.

PP 5-7 is typical when partnered.

Is there a specific area of DR that tends to be the highest paying field in PP? (mammo, body, neuro etc.)

 

[chudat]

Distribution is bimodal. Academics is more relaxed with income in the upper 3’s to mid/upper 4’s.

PP 5-7 is typical when partnered.

The initial poster states that he makes 650 as ER physician which is fact more than 80% of radiologists

 

[SeisK]

Is there a specific area of DR that tends to be the highest paying field in PP? (mammo, body, neuro etc.)

Most radiology practices and departments are set up so that pay is even across subspecialties. The highest paid radiologists are neuro IR docs who are employed by neurosurgery groups who pay them like neurosurgeons.

But you have to realize the training for this is longer than neurosurgery, and the lifestyle is that of neurosurgery... because you’re a neurosurgeon.

 

[mepo12]

Most radiology practices and departments are set up so that pay is even across subspecialties. The highest paid radiologists are neuro IR docs who are employed by neurosurgery groups who pay them like neurosurgeons.

But you have to realize the training for this is longer than neurosurgery, and the lifestyle is that of neurosurgery... because you’re a neurosurgeon.

5 years ir, one year interventional neuro rads fellowship? Not too bad right?

Hours probably bad though as an attending

 

[maxxor]

5 years ir, one year interventional neuro rads fellowship? Not too bad right?

Hours probably bad though as an attending

1 year internship
4 years radiology
1-2 year neuroradiology
1-2 years neuroIR

 

[SeisK]

1 year internship
4 years radiology
1-2 year neuroradiology
1-2 years neuroIR

Fastest you can do it is 4 years IR with mini-fellowship in neuro.

1 year neuro fellowship

2 years neuro IR. Though many will require 3 to build up your neuro ICU experience first.

So you can expect 8 years post med school for your training.

 

[maxxor]

Fastest you can do it is 4 years IR with mini-fellowship in neuro.

1 year neuro fellowship

2 years neuro IR. Though many will require 3 to build up your neuro ICU experience first.

So you can expect 8 years post med school for your training.

I’m confused by what you are trying to say.
There exists no 4 year IR residency. Many of them are categorical with internship+3 years DR+2 years IR=6 years at minimum, before tacking on any additional neuro IR specific training.

if you go to a place like MGH where “minifellowships” are equivalent to fellowships, you can shave a tiny bit of time off depending on where you do neuro IR, but it’s often a wash as the neuroradiology fellowship in those places is 2 years long.

it is faster to enter Neuro IR through DR. In all cases, it’s longer than Neurosurgery at 7 years.

 

[SeisK]

I’m confused by what you are trying to say.
There exists no 4 year IR residency. Many of them are categorical with internship+3 years DR+2 years IR=6 years at minimum, before tacking on any additional neuro IR specific training.

if you go to a place like MGH where “minifellowships” are equivalent to fellowships, you can shave a tiny bit of time off depending on where you do neuro IR, but it’s often a wash as the neuroradiology fellowship in those places is 2 years long.

it is faster to enter Neuro IR through DR. In all cases, it’s longer than Neurosurgery at 7 years.

IR is not a prerequisite for neuro IR. Going IR -> NIR as actually very atypical. It’s usually DR -> neuro -> NIR

You negotiate the length of your fellowship. If you have extensive neuro experience with your R4 elective time most will make your fellowship only 1 year. If you took your elective time to pursue something else, then yes neuro would be 2 years.

nowhere in this scheme is IR a requirement other than what your DR residency requires

 

[fun8stuff]

Most of these salary under estimate true average salary.

EM work harder for their salary than rads. You definitely could make more with better lifestyle in rads.

 

[2brads]

Most of these salary under estimate true average salary.

EM work harder for their salary than rads. You definitely could make more with better lifestyle in rads.

I don’t know about “work harder” but EM definitely works worse hours.

 

[fun8stuff]

Lol. Good point. From my point, they order imaging based on area of body that has symptoms, consult with appropriate specialist, then discharge or admit. Basically the reason the EM market sucks now. Hospitals have learned PAs and NPs can generally do the same for cheaper.

 

[2brads]

At least your EMs have seen the patient. Some of mine just order based on triage notes; like they’re ordering takeout from Uber eats or something.

 

[Vandalia]

I don’t know about “work harder” but EM definitely works worse hours.

I don't know. With "take back the night" radiologists have to provide 24/7 coverage as well.

Someone has to work those night and weekends, and with an improved radiology job market, new hires are saying "no thanks" to jobs if the burden is on them.

 

[2brads]

I don't know. With "take back the night" radiologists have to provide 24/7 coverage as well.

Someone has to work those night and weekends, and with an improved radiology job market, new hires are saying "no thanks" to jobs if the burden is on them.

Yeah. But they’re doing so at home in their underwear with a warm cup of cocoa. Plus a lot of tele rads nights only gigs are week on 2 weeks off. Not sure if EM offers that.

 

[Vandalia]

Yeah. But they’re doing so at home in their underwear with a warm cup of cocoa. Plus a lot of tele rads nights only gigs are week on 2 weeks off. Not sure if EM offers that.

I would file that under "works harder", not "worse hours."

As for "week on 2 weeks off", that is definitely possible if you are (crazy enough) willing to work 7 days in a row.

 

[2brads]

I think 7 on them time off is fairly common for both em and rads. Also, rads shifts are shorter than EM shifts, in my experience.

To get back to the original point. Most rads are working bankers hours. I don’t know any EMs doing that.