New schools vs Established schools

[MJB]

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Possibly.

But also remember that the people chosen were (for whatever reason) NOT the deans, dept heads, etc at the school they came from.

When PCOM GA opened up they took a lot of people from PCOM Philly campus...but none of them were the "big wigs" up here. They were people who wanted to advance their careers and move up the ladder but didnt necessarily have the opportunity to do so where they were.

When in doubt, go with the school that more people have heard about.

I'm just curious if you've checked out the administration and faculty at DCOM and if you could give your comments.

This has been an excellent thread full of lots of good "morsels" of information to chew on. It is much appreciated.

 

[toothless rufus]

Geez, is it all really this bad? The whole thing is starting to sound like a joke. I am beginning to have serious concerns...

 

[BMW19]

Doc 14220,

Again this may sound cliche, but your clinical education will be what YOU make of it. There will always be whiners and complainers at established, new and even the BEST schools. You don't think there are people that complain about stuff at Hopkins? I can tell you we have top hospitals set up for our clinical rotations. We have top surgeons, oncologists, FP's, IM docs lecturing at our school. Some of them have been written up in the best docs sections of national publications. Some of them have written chapters in excellent textbooks. But we still have our problems. In the end I will be a Doc DO/MD I don't care. I am striving to be a great Emergency Physician and will take the path of least resistance to get there. I don't need Emory or Shock Trauma (although that would be nice!). Just a way to get to my goal. You will do the same. The naysayers on this forum will always be just that. Sorry if we stole faculty from Philly JP but we needed them!

BMW-

Yeaa. I too would chose a branch DO school before caribbean. And my main reason for doing so it because these schools are American Medical Schools.

However, I would also think that as American Medical Schools, ALL of them should have stable rotations/residency systems in place. And as someone who will probably end up going DO, I hope that these schools ARE stable and WILL provide sufficient clinical training.

DO's face a certain stigma as it is, but I have always thought that their training is the equivalent to MD's. But after reading threads like this one (questioning the sufficience of DO clinical education) it makes me feel much less enthusiatic about my plans to pursue the DO pathway

 

[Dr JPH]

Sorry if we stole faculty from Philly JP but we needed them!

Fine with me. TOURO-NV stole some too. Just shows how good the departments are at PCOM when there are faculty leaving to go run departments of other schools.

 

[VaEMTGuy]

...residency based rotations ...preceptor based rotations...

First, I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to an informative and civilized discussion. It has been very interesting to follow.

Second, please excuse me for interrupting the thread to ask a basic question. As a first year student I'm not entirely clear yet on the all the differences between residency based rotations and preceptor based ones are. Could someone please better define them and explain why residency based may be "superior" in some sense?
Thanks

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I'm not entirely clear yet on the all the differences between residency based rotations and preceptor based ones are. Could someone please better define them and explain why residency based may be "superior" in some sense?
Thanks

Residency based rotation = An inpatient, ward based setup where there exist on or more "teams". Teams consist generally of a an attending physician, and cheif/senior resident, a junior resident or intern, and students. Pros consist of being in a structured learning environment with clear expectations of student responsibilities, and exposure to residents. Cons consist of being the low man on the totem pole, and sometimes less attention from the attending.

Preceptor based rotations = Either inpatient or out patient, where it's just the student and the attending (many times in private practice). Pros equal more face time and teaching with the attending, and the possibility of more procedures, deliveries, etc. Cons are the low exposure to academic medicine (the environmet you'll likely get your residency training in), exposure to only that attendings view on medical practice, and being at the mercy of a doctor who is also trying to efficiently see patients (put food on the table) while teaching.

HUGE DISCLAIMER: The above are only generalities. Many exceptions exist.

 

[McDoctor]

DO's face a certain stigma as it is, but I have always thought that their training is the equivalent to MD's.

What stigma do DO's face? And who is stigmatizing them? Maybe you could elaborate on this. I graduated from a DO school in 2003 and I haven't seen or heard of this "stigma" toward myself or other DO's. You're just fear-mongering, whether intentional or not.

The only doctors who are stigmatized by their colleagues are the ones who reject all conventional medicine, or have horrendous bedside manner and poor ethics, or are grossly incompetent. There are MD's and DO's both who fall into this category. There is no debate, or controversy, or stigmatization, or any other distinction worth preserving between MD's and DO's outside of these forums.

 

[BMW19]

As people have said over and over again on this forum. If you have ANY DOUBT that you will be considered as good as your peers for being a DO. Or if you will regret not having the magical letters of MD after your name. DO NOT GO DO!! You will only be miserable. Those of us that chose DO did it for many reasons and will be proud of those two letters. If you won't you will be miserable! For G-D sakes go to St. Georges or Ross and just suck it up, get your MD. I agree with McDoctor the stigma is in YOUR mind and on these forums. Once you get out a hospital/group/office just wants you to be efficient, have a good bedside manner. treat your patients with evidence based medicine and don't kill anyone!

BMW-

What stigma do DO's face? And who is stigmatizing them? Maybe you could elaborate on this. I graduated from a DO school in 2003 and I haven't seen or heard of this "stigma" toward myself or other DO's. You're just fear-mongering, whether intentional or not.

The only doctors who are stigmatized by their colleagues are the ones who reject all conventional medicine, or have horrendous bedside manner and poor ethics, or are grossly incompetent. There are MD's and DO's both who fall into this category. There is no debate, or controversy, or stigmatization, or any other distinction worth preserving between MD's and DO's outside of these forums.

 

[cmeshy]

I still can't believe that no one has said this yet...

There is one simple way to compete with our MD counterparts on their playing field.

Take the USMLE! And you only need to do it once. Step II usually isn't available for review for residency apps so...its just one more exam amoung hundreds of others. TAKE THE DARN EXAM.

Plane and simple. Yes that means taking two exams, total bummer. But this was a draw back a DO student should have understood when accepting a seat at a DO school. I am getting a great education at my DO school and don't think that I would be getting any better anywhere else. Being happy is so much more important. Its always and will always be what you make of it for yourself. Quit having the idea that you are second class med students and that competitive career fields are out of your reach. My class has some very intelligent people in it. They are doing well and want the best. They KNOW they must also take the USMLE in order to get there. And I have no doubt that they won't succeed.

You can get any residency you want. Rock the USMLE I. Oh, and of course get good grades. MD applicants must do the exact same thing!!! Just because they trained at an MD school does not make them more competitive (however I'm sure a few ivy schools are given an edge).

I could be niave, but I feel that programs descriminate on setting a minimum board score when reviewing packets, not whether you went to DO or MD. COMLEX score only...they won't even look at it. Folks! Its that simple. Don't feel sorry for yourself. That is where we give the stigma to our peers that we are "lucky" to have even been given the chance to practice medicine. Take some pride in your education and the uniqueness that sets you apart in being a DO. People hear it in your voice and see it on your face when you say that you had to settle on a DO school cause of your MCAT. QUIT SAYING that. Seriously. Confidence will get you so far and the respect that you think you would have just been given if only your coat said MD instead of DO.

Do not let the MCAT be the end all of your existence. I can count on two hands of personal friends who did subpar on the MCAT but scored >95% on Step I (USMLE). They studied their heads off. If you want Derm, then dammit go for it. Just don't give me the line and feed this crap to overs that they should go MD if they want to specialize cause its impossible as a DO. Also, this other crap that DO schools only teach primary care medicine. CRAP!!!! Medical education your first two years is medical education everywhere. MANY MANY MD schools throw around their intent on filling primary care education as well.

So there it is. This forum sheds such negativity on our CHOSEN profession. No wonder premeds are so skeptical about DOs when every thread is dealing with identity and inferiority complexes. Stand up and freggin smile for once and be proud of what you are doing. I'm having a lot of fun and I wish you all could too. (just take the USMLE...in case you forgot what this rant was all about)

I'm not gonna even get started with the clinical years discussion. Cause I'm pretty ticked just like the rest of us on how up in the air it is. BUT. STEP I USMLE does not have anything to do with that.

Wow. that was interesting.

 

[BMW19]

If we are so proud of our profession (which I am). Why should I have to take their test? I know many people that rocked the COMLEX and got great MD residencies. I agree with 90% of what you said. But you should not also put in pre-meds minds that they will "have to take the MD test". They can do just fine with great grades and great COMLEX scores. Regardless of your USMLE scores to get Derm, Rads, Ortho or any sub-specialized surgery you will have to be at the top of your class. Especially in a DO school. But the nice thing is that we do have DO residencies!

BMW-

I still can't believe that no one has said this yet...

There is one simple way to compete with our MD counterparts on their playing field.

Take the USMLE! And you only need to do it once. Step II usually isn't available for review for residency apps so...its just one more exam amoung hundreds of others. TAKE THE DARN EXAM.

Plane and simple. Yes that means taking two exams, total bummer. But this was a draw back a DO student should have understood when accepting a seat at a DO school. I am getting a great education at my DO school and don't think that I would be getting any better anywhere else. Being happy is so much more important. Its always and will always be what you make of it for yourself. Quit having the idea that you are second class med students and that competitive career fields are out of your reach. My class has some very intelligent people in it. They are doing well and want the best. They KNOW they must also take the USMLE in order to get there. And I have no doubt that they won't succeed.

You can get any residency you want. Rock the USMLE I. Oh, and of course get good grades. MD applicants must do the exact same thing!!! Just because they trained at an MD school does not make them more competitive (however I'm sure a few ivy schools are given an edge).

I could be niave, but I feel that programs descriminate on setting a minimum board score when reviewing packets, not whether you went to DO or MD. COMLEX score only...they won't even look at it. Folks! Its that simple. Don't feel sorry for yourself. That is where we give the stigma to our peers that we are "lucky" to have even been given the chance to practice medicine. Take some pride in your education and the uniqueness that sets you apart in being a DO. People hear it in your voice and see it on your face when you say that you had to settle on a DO school cause of your MCAT. QUIT SAYING that. Seriously. Confidence will get you so far and the respect that you think you would have just been given if only your coat said MD instead of DO.

Do not let the MCAT be the end all of your existence. I can count on two hands of personal friends who did subpar on the MCAT but scored >95% on Step I (USMLE). They studied their heads off. If you want Derm, then dammit go for it. Just don't give me the line and feed this crap to overs that they should go MD if they want to specialize cause its impossible as a DO. Also, this other crap that DO schools only teach primary care medicine. CRAP!!!! Medical education your first two years is medical education everywhere. MANY MANY MD schools throw around their intent on filling primary care education as well.

So there it is. This forum sheds such negativity on our CHOSEN profession. No wonder premeds are so skeptical about DOs when every thread is dealing with identity and inferiority complexes. Stand up and freggin smile for once and be proud of what you are doing. I'm having a lot of fun and I wish you all could too. (just take the USMLE...in case you forgot what this rant was all about)

I'm not gonna even get started with the clinical years discussion. Cause I'm pretty ticked just like the rest of us on how up in the air it is. BUT. STEP I USMLE does not have anything to do with that.

Wow. that was interesting.

 

[P Willi]

I feel that for me I could have done my MSI/II year anywhere and learned as much, because i'm somewhat an independent studier, but a solid MSIII/IV year have been crutial to gaining strong clinical knowledge and experience. As stated by some of the others, I do feel that some of the older schools have more established rotations. Many of the kinks with rotation sites have been worked out to a point. All my rotations were in Chicago, and after talking with others who moved to many locations for clinicals, for me, I definetely feel that it is a plus to rotate in a program where you don't have to move to many cities.

In all reality though, the right answer is the one that works for you and your needs (location, cost, residency options, family...)

Best of luck

 

[Old_Mil]

One of the things that I didn't realize when applying to medical schools was just how different the curricula at different schools would be. My advice when picking a medical school would be to ask detailed questions about the curriculum and pick a school that is a good fit for you. Some of the questions that are worth asking...

- Is class attendance required?
- Is there a dress code?
- (for osteopathic schools) How much OMM (1 year? 2 years)? How is it tested (is everything cumulative, or not?)?
- Are there pop quizzes?
- Does the school do a good job of making sure that material that shouldn't be taught till 3rd and 4th year remains in 3rd and 4th year, or will it start encroaching on your 2nd year at a time you should be passing classes and preparing for step 1?
- What percentages of the lecturers are staff people and what percentages are guest lecturers? In general, the higher the percentage of guest lecturers, the lower the continuity - and quality - of the curriculum.
- If you go to a school that offers multiple programs, are there any situations in which programs are combined and take classes together? (Bad idea).

For me, the right school is one that doesn't require class attendance, doesn't require a dress code, keeps the amount of OMM you have to waste brain space on to a minimum, doesn't have pop quizzes, segregates material properly according to year of study, and has a high percentage of staff people giving lectures. Also, MD/DO students shouldn't be taking classes with PAs, or people from other programs for obvious reasons.

Good luck!

 

[clement]

the program director directly told me, that they only interviewed individuals from school (allopathic and osteopathic) where they felt that the training was strong. The director stated that "there are both good and bad allopathic and osteopathic schools." A lot of the places, program directors were fimiliar with my education because they had previous residents from our school.

Does that mean if your school is totally new that they won't have anyone to compare you to (good or bad)?!

 

[theraball]

My father ran a radiology dept. at a large university hospital in the Midwest for 35 years. He found that his D.O. residents were every bit as good as the MDs, and he's very old school. Residency programs do not view D.O.s as lesser quality. If you have it in you to be a great practitioner it matters not where you went to school; every med school in this country teaches good medicine and it's up to the individual to apply themselves, score well, make solid professional contacts and build a great career. It's like any other field. All this speculation about "stigma" and 2nd class citizens is just that--speculation. A friend of mine went from Kirksville up to Chicago with some buddies on rotations and blew them away up there--the doc said "if this is what they're like at KCOM, I want more of them!"

I would venture to say, a great physician in whatever specialty is going to be great because he (or she) has greatness in him, not because he came out of a whiz-bang program.

Someone who complains about the "waste" of OMM, is thinking about going MD Caribbean to avoid the risks of being a D.O.--that person has a lot of fear about the profession. A top notch physician is not a fearful and timid soul. It takes guts to assume a leadership role in this field.

At a party yesterday, a man in his 70s with a cane walked over to me, said "I hear you're going into osteopathy--my doc is an osteopath and he's the greatest doctor I've ever met." This is what it's all about.

 

[Pansit]

My father ran a radiology dept. at a large university hospital in the Midwest for 35 years. He found that his D.O. residents were every bit as good as the MDs, and he's very old school. Residency programs do not view D.O.s as lesser quality. If you have it in you to be a great practitioner it matters not where you went to school; every med school in this country teaches good medicine and it's up to the individual to apply themselves, score well, make solid professional contacts and build a great career. It's like any other field. All this speculation about "stigma" and 2nd class citizens is just that--speculation. A friend of mine went from Kirksville up to Chicago with some buddies on rotations and blew them away up there--the doc said "if this is what they're like at KCOM, I want more of them!"

I would venture to say, a great physician in whatever specialty is going to be great because he (or she) has greatness in him, not because he came out of a whiz-bang program.

Someone who complains about the "waste" of OMM, is thinking about going MD Caribbean to avoid the risks of being a D.O.--that person has a lot of fear about the profession. A top notch physician is not a fearful and timid soul. It takes guts to assume a leadership role in this field.

At a party yesterday, a man in his 70s with a cane walked over to me, said "I hear you're going into osteopathy--my doc is an osteopath and he's the greatest doctor I've ever met." This is what it's all about.

👍

 

[seinordiggler]

One of the things that I didn't realize when applying to medical schools was just how different the curricula at different schools would be. My advice when picking a medical school would be to ask detailed questions about the curriculum and pick a school that is a good fit for you. Some of the questions that are worth asking...

- Is class attendance required?
- Is there a dress code?
- (for osteopathic schools) How much OMM (1 year? 2 years)? How is it tested (is everything cumulative, or not?)?
- Are there pop quizzes?
- Does the school do a good job of making sure that material that shouldn't be taught till 3rd and 4th year remains in 3rd and 4th year, or will it start encroaching on your 2nd year at a time you should be passing classes and preparing for step 1?
- What percentages of the lecturers are staff people and what percentages are guest lecturers? In general, the higher the percentage of guest lecturers, the lower the continuity - and quality - of the curriculum.
- If you go to a school that offers multiple programs, are there any situations in which programs are combined and take classes together? (Bad idea).

👍 👍

I totally agree!! I attend a semi-new school and this nails it right on the head!! The discontinuity and poor quality of so many of our "guest" clinical faculty is astounding. Additionally, the amount of material that belongs in 3rd/4th year at our school really distracts from our board prep. I advise anyone to talk with as many alumni and senior students from these newer schools as possible. As I'm nearing the end of my pre-clinical ed I am now terrified by reports of the clinical years here. 😡

 

[redsoxfan]

I stick with all the ESTABLISHED schools...some residency program director in the DO residencies and competitive ones like Radiology, Derm, Ophth look at that...I rotate at places where more pull was given to students from established older schools. They could only be in the middle of the class with decent board scores from CCOM, DMU, PCOM, KCOM, KCUMB, OSU, UMDNJ, MSUCOM, TCOM and if they were from the newer schools, those applicants had to be at the top of the class with superb board scores. I know this isn't right, but in the older program directors minds, its whatever goes since they make the decision. I think most of the newer DO schools will prepare you...but just be aware when choosing and applying.

Note: I just heard this when I was rotating and applying to all the different residency and internship programs in the DO world. I didn't apply MD.

why did u leave out UNECOM?

 

[CatsandCradles]

why did u leave out UNECOM?

$10 this thread turns into a turf war...

 

[Onstarr]

$10 this thread turns into a turf war...

*popcorn*

 

[MD/DO ALMOST]

What about a new program started by an established school such as ATSU KCOM ( 114 yrs old)? Is the 'newness' of the program as much of a concern then? I am really torn as to what to do, b/c although it's not the way medicine is traditionally taught, I think it may be great, and the clinical sites for years 2-4 instead of three and 4 will be nice, but does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is a disadvantage? (board exams, res. options, etc) I have the choice, and I may choose to be the 'guinea pig'..........

 

[BMW19]

I don't know. As you can see from my above posts I am a big supporter of new schools as branches of well established/respected schools (or I would not be at one). However, taking away the second didactic year is big. I mean we have learned an insane amount of material this year, and I still don't know if we will ever feel ready for clinicals in June. How can one possibly be ready for the clinics/hospitals after a year of biochem and anatomy? This is one of 2 instances that I would not give the opinion that a branch school is the way to go. The other being the PBL format. Again, we have been taught so much this year by seasoned physicians how can one learn it all from reading Harrison's etc. Maybe do some more research on it first.

BMW-

What about a new program started by an established school such as ATSU KCOM ( 114 yrs old)? Is the 'newness' of the program as much of a concern then? I am really torn as to what to do, b/c although it's not the way medicine is traditionally taught, I think it may be great, and the clinical sites for years 2-4 instead of three and 4 will be nice, but does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is a disadvantage? (board exams, res. options, etc) I have the choice, and I may choose to be the 'guinea pig'..........

 

[Dr JPH]

Your learning grows exponentially once you start seeing patients in the hospital. Much of the clinical education I had in 2nd year didnt really make sense until 3rd and 4th year.

Early clinical exposure with regular lectures is the way to go IMO.

I think that years 2 and 3 should be split 50/50 with didactic and clinical, with 4th year being totally clinical.

 

[MD/DO ALMOST]

thanks everyone... year 1 is 12 straight months of basic science, OMM, etc..., and the second year is a mixture of small group study with a physician instructor combined with the clinical experience that will grow/ take over as we enter third year. I know this is really different, but they will still be doing plenty of the basic sciences, path, OMM, etc.... in year two also. Do you think it will help being in a small group and also being surrounded by practicing physicians all the time? My friend who is the head of family medicine at a major hospital in So Cal says YES- he likes the idea, and admitted that most if not all the learning of how to actually practice medicine is during residency-He also thinks that medicine now is so different that the days of 'old' that a change in the way it is taught is long overdue. I do not agree or disagree, but it was an interesting POV from a very well repected physician. Also, with all the online resources, won't I have access to all the information anyway?.... Thanks for the comments, I really do appreciate it.