NO clinical experience?

[orrghead16]

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I am currently a Jr. looking to apply this coming cycle for MD/PhD with one major flaw. I have absolutely 0 clinical experience. No hospital volunteering, no shadowing. The closest thing that comes to it is that my lab is in a hospital and I work with medically relevant pathogens.

Is there a quick way to get a decent dosage of clinical experience relatively quickly? Moreover, would it be worth it to just accumulate a little clinical experience by this summer, even if it is not very substantial?

After reading through threads, it looks like there are opinions suggesting it matters a lot to it doesn't matter at all. But, there seems to be schools where it tends to matter more. Any ideas which schools would immediately flag you because of a complete lack of clinical experience? Or would all schools look me over with a fine tooth comb if I come to the table with a goose egg in clinical experience?

Other than the lack of clinical experience, my profile fits any standard pre-MD/PhD. Lots of research, good GPA, plenty of volunteer service (albeit outside clinical), more research, and MCATs should be decent. I guess I have just always felt that time spent in a clinical setting is a rather wasteful way to prove you are interested in MD/PhD and is, simply put, time which is much better spent in the lab.

At best, it illustrates my desire to be a much more research oriented physican-scientist as opposed to vice versa.

 

[tiamat360]

You do still have to explain why you want the MD, on top of the PhD. That means you have to demonstrate in some way that you know what you're getting into, which clinical experience can allow you to do. Remember that to gain admittance to many MD/PhD programs, you need to get into the med school associated with the program. Although you don't need nearly the level of clinical experience that someone applying MD-only might, you do still need some.

Yes, it is worth it to get in a little experience before the summer and even during the application cycle. You work in a hospital; it might be possible for you to shadow one or more physicians who work there.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=592736&highlight=clinical+experience

 

[gstrub]

I have interviewed several candidates with excellent research resumes but no clinical work. None were accepted.

IMO, the best way to gain valuable clinical experience and have it look impressive on your application is to take an EMT class, then volunteer at a rescue squad, if you have time. This will demonstrate commitment, clinical skill development, and volunteer work. It is also a lot of fun.

 

[fastrandstrongr]

im not your run-of-the-mill md/phd but i had no clinical experience and was accepted to a top-20. my gpa is crap and mcat was unimpressive, though i was able to justify my lack of clinical experience with my commitment to my research. i dont recommend not having clinical research, though, as it will certainly help your case.

 

[orrghead16]

Yes, it is worth it to get in a little experience before the summer and even during the application cycle. You work in a hospital; it might be possible for you to shadow one or more physicians who work there.

I have plenty of connections within the hospital, so it shouldn't be a problem lining up a few shadows to do in between now and June. Would multiple doc shadowing experiences and as many hospital volunteer hours as I can get in by June (prob 40-50?) suffice given above average research? Or enough to get by on interviews? The "100 hrs" was thrown around on the other thread D&G posted as standard, but I just don't see myself getting there by June when I submit, maybe by fall or secondaries? Would increasing clinical experience between original AMCAS submission and secondary or even interviews help my case much?

The one fear I have is fitting this all in given prior commitments to research, classes, MCAT, and free-time. Shouldn't have saved it all for last. 😱 Luckily, I only have 12 hours to manage this semester and next before I am done, thank god.

D&G- Thanks, I missed the link earlier. It was very helpful.

 

[GliaGirl]

Before you write yourself off as having NO experience, are you part of any community service organizations? With my greek organization, I volunteer at nursing homes a lot and do medical supply sorting to be shipped over seas. These kind of things can count if spun the right way. Just get started now and you'll be fine. Other than those "clinical" experiences, all I had was 50 hours volunteering in a hospital during high school, and I got by alright. Do 50 hours of shadowing, and increase that number to 100 before interviews and you'll be fine. They just need to know that you care enough to put forth effort. Some schools will probably pass you over, but from what I understand most won't, so don't sweat it.

 

[Vader]

The main issue for yourself both in terms of career path and application/interview is the question of "Why MD?", as others here have alluded to. If you have solid reasons, you can probably get by at some MD/PhD programs if the rest of your application is outstanding. However, it would only benefit you to have some clinical experience under your belt, and provide tangible evidence of your committment to the combined pathway. It is not that difficult to do a minimum of clinical shadowing or volunteer work (only a few hours per week will get you to goal). Otherwise, the question in my mind (and any interviewer's) will be "with such a stellar research background, why are you intent on pursuing the combined degree pathway, as opposed to a research-only pathway?"

I'm sure you have good reasons--just be sure to explain them fully in your application and that you are prepared to answer this during interviews!

Good luck!

 

[marctam86]

im proof it can be done, though i did manage to get a quite a few rejections that i suspect i might not have gotten had i a stronger clinical background.

 

[fairalexfield]

I recommend doing something, anything to answer the 'how do you know about the MD side of things.' When I applied last year, I feel that many of my rejections were because of a complete lack of clinical experience (especially at UWash). This year, I was able to do some quick shadowing and although it wasn't much, I was able to say something when they asked about clinical experience instead of, 'well, I don't have any specific experiences...'

 

[alacast]

This thread has freaked me out a bit, I'm afraid. 😀 I, too, am in the 2010 application cycle and have 0 clinical experience. While I'm strong everywhere else, I don't want to jeopardize my chances at the few places I'm presently very interested in (which also happen to be medical heavy, such as UCSF and UofChicago).

So now I'm trying to figure out how to do some meaningful clinical experience before mid June, when the primary app can start being submitted. I seriously looked at the EMT route, which sounded awesome, but it's just not feasible in the time frame. Does anyone have a better idea than 50-100 hours of shadowing? At this point, is that much even necessary/feasible? Are hospitals the gold standard, or are smaller practices sensible, too?

Now that I've been thinking about it, it WOULD be interesting to see what it's actually like doctoring 😛

Cheers!

 

[imbored]

This thread has freaked me out a bit, I'm afraid. 😀 I, too, am in the 2010 application cycle and have 0 clinical experience. While I'm strong everywhere else, I don't want to jeopardize my chances at the few places I'm presently very interested in (which also happen to be medical heavy, such as UCSF and UofChicago).

So now I'm trying to figure out how to do some meaningful clinical experience before mid June, when the primary app can start being submitted. I seriously looked at the EMT route, which sounded awesome, but it's just not feasible in the time frame. Does anyone have a better idea than 50-100 hours of shadowing? At this point, is that much even necessary/feasible? Are hospitals the gold standard, or are smaller practices sensible, too?

Now that I've been thinking about it, it WOULD be interesting to see what it's actually like doctoring 😛

Cheers!

What is your field of research in? For me, I do neuro research, and I asked my PI a few years ago if he knew any doctors that I could shadow, and he put me in contact with a neurosurgeon. I have been shadowing him ever since. So you might want to consider doing something like that.

 

[dl2dp2]

something else to consider is participation in an outcome study/clinical research, in addition to lab research, as a form of clinical experience.

I never had formal shadowing experience, but did follow a physician @ JHU for an outcome study, and followed the rounds @ the ICU, and analyzed data for his paper. This ends up being a good story when the questions were popped at the interview. One of my research project was in the pediatric epilepsy unit, and thus I saw some patients with my PI. Again another good story at interviews.

I don't think any "formal" and "sustained" clinical experience is important. For instance, I think it's a waste of time for a MD/PhD candidate to shadow a primary care physician in an outpatient clinic.

However, it's really for your sake to know a little bit about how *academic* medicine works before nosedive into it: what does a physician scientist PI do a day to day basis, how does a hospital work, attending lifestyle, how is basic research/clinical research integrated, etc. This shouldn't necessarily take months and months. Whatever limited exposure I had of medicine I really liked, and this is important. I think there is a case to be made for people to go into MD/PhD even if they don't want to do a residency. But there's no point if one completely abhors medicine. And that possibility can be tested out with a little bit of clinic time. Remember the whole point of MD/PhD is to train you to become a scholar in medicine, and every part of your application should give a coherent story about how you are most qualified to become a scholar. One shan't think of the application as a laundry list of requirements that you check off.

 

[gbwillner]

My 2c as someone who's been through it already.....

As an MSTP applicant, you may or may not have to be first accepted to the MD program. Some programs work this way, others you go straight to MSTP people. If so you will have much more leeway without any clinical exposure.

However, you should have some taste of what you are getting yourself into, as others have suggested. I don't recommend becoming an EMT or taking courses or volunteering in the ER. 1st, those experiences are NOTHING like being an MD, 2nd, they are filled with scutwork and are very time consuming, and 3rd, they really won't help you much. There is nothing you can really do to know what you are getting yourself into and it really is a leap of faith. You just have to hope you like it when you get there.

That being said, there are things I would recommend doing. First is shadowing. You can follow your family doc or whoever once, twice, three times. it doesn't matter and it all counts, especially if they write you an LOR. Probably the best thing overall to do is join the pre-med honorary group at your school. It was AED at my undergrad. This kills multiple birds with one stone- you are forced to do community service, you get to shadow docs, and you can be in leadership positions... all requiring about an hour of your time per week (on average). This basically took care of all the necessary extracurriculars for me (aside from research, of course). This was my only "clinical" exposure, and I didn't even have a "comittee" letter or what have you.

 

[orrghead16]

sluox and gb,

I think those perspectives help me out a lot. I was more stuck up on hours spent vs. a few meaningful experiences. Sounds like I will do some shadowing in the coming months and see what else I can get myself into. Thanks for the help all!