No confidence in ACPE - petition

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farm4real

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Silly question guys...why are we petitioning ACPE and not the US Department of Education???


The gist:

ACPE acredited by US Dept of education ->

US DOE states that licensing exams and job placement may be appropriate to accrediting decisions of schools->

Look at Naplex rates and real ( not school reported) employment success->

ACPE standards can be changed, but this may need to be action of the Dept of Education (ACPE has been clear that it refuses to change)



The Proof ( the tl;dr part):

1) Per ACPE website (PharmD Program Accreditation):
ACPE is recognized by the US Department of Education (USDE) for the accreditation and preaccreditation, within the United States, of professional degree programs in pharmacy leading to the degree of Doctor of Pharmacy

2) Per US Dept of Ed (https://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg13.html#RecognitionCriteria):


(1) The agency's accreditation standards effectively address the quality of the institution or program in the following areas:
(i) Success with respect to student achievement in relation to the institution's mission, which may include different standards for different institutions or programs, as established by the institution, including, as appropriate, consideration of course completion, State licensing examination, and job placement rates.


And


(c) If the agency determines, at any point during its systematic program of review, that it needs to make changes to its standards
, the agency must initiate action within 12 months to make the changes and must complete that action within a reasonable period of time. Before finalizing any changes to its standards, the agency must--
(1) Provide notice to all of the agency's relevant constituencies, and other parties who have made their interest known to the agency, of the changes the agency proposes to make;
(2) Give the constituencies and other interested parties adequate opportunity to comment on the proposed changes; and
(3) Take into account any comments on the proposed changes submitted timely by the relevant constituencies and by other interested parties.
(Authority: 20 U.S.C. 1099b)


It can be done....ACPE does not do it because they do not wish to....their excuses are excuses period!!!!
 
Silly question guys...why are we petitioning ACPE and not the US Department of Education???


The gist:

ACPE acredited by US Dept of education ->

US DOE states that licensing exams and job placement may be appropriate to accrediting decisions of schools->

Look at Naplex rates and real ( not school reported) employment success->

ACPE standards can be changed, but this may need to be action of the Dept of Education (ACPE has been clear that it refuses to change)



The Proof ( the tl;dr part):

1) Per ACPE website (PharmD Program Accreditation):
ACPE is recognized by the US Department of Education (USDE) for the accreditation and preaccreditation, within the United States, of professional degree programs in pharmacy leading to the degree of Doctor of Pharmacy

2) Per US Dept of Ed (https://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg13.html#RecognitionCriteria):


(1) The agency's accreditation standards effectively address the quality of the institution or program in the following areas:
(i) Success with respect to student achievement in relation to the institution's mission, which may include different standards for different institutions or programs, as established by the institution, including, as appropriate, consideration of course completion, State licensing examination, and job placement rates.


And


(c) If the agency determines, at any point during its systematic program of review, that it needs to make changes to its standards, the agency must initiate action within 12 months to make the changes and must complete that action within a reasonable period of time. Before finalizing any changes to its standards, the agency must--
(1) Provide notice to all of the agency's relevant constituencies, and other parties who have made their interest known to the agency, of the changes the agency proposes to make;
(2) Give the constituencies and other interested parties adequate opportunity to comment on the proposed changes; and
(3) Take into account any comments on the proposed changes submitted timely by the relevant constituencies and by other interested parties.
(Authority: 20 U.S.C. 1099b)


It can be done....ACPE does not do it because they do not wish to....their excuses are excuses period!!!!

Stop it. Youre making all these money hungry zealots nervous with these facts. We landed on the moon, pearl harbor and 9/11 were not an inside job, earth is a spinning globe and pharmacy is doing perfectly fine! Do not test these with research and facts.
 
(i) Success with respect to student achievement in relation to the institution's mission, which may include different standards for different institutions or programs, as established by the institution, including, as appropriate, consideration of course completion, State licensing examination, and job placement rates.
There are no specified % licensing pass rate or job placement rates for which underperformance would require action. They could easily dismiss such petition. I think we'll have the highest chance of success if we petition for schools to at least publicly publish their job placement rates. Without job placement data available, the above cannot be enforced. Many schools currently send out surveys to graduating students but keep them private. I suggest the survey be made mandatory for all PharmDs upon graduation and again 6 months post-graduation and 1 year post-graduation. I suggest all surveys to be standardized as follow:
1. Practice setting: community pharmacist, hospital pharmacist, unemployed, or other
2. Employment status: Full time, part time, temp, residency, unemployed
3. Salary range: <$50k, 50-75k, 75-100k, 100-120k, >120k
4. Rate position opportunities: very bad, bad, good, excellent
 
You’re probably better off channeling all this pent up energy into getting a better job
 
You’re probably better off channeling all this pent up energy into getting a better job

white that sounds practical, I think that is just selflsh and spineless! (sorry if that is too forward)
 
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Why don’t we all just stop providing rotation sites...probably easier to do that than some fakebook/armchair petition that no one reads.

That is a great idea. But I think schools will be just paying / buying new sites then. Still great to show effort to stop this mad expansion.

IMHO, petitions are not useless either. They would alert and update the public on what has been going on and how those corrupted organizations are responding. (Kudos to those who are doing those petitions).
 
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Stop precepting students...only way to stop this problem
 
People do read them.... the accreditation agency felt the need to respond!

My main point: there is a legal, democratic way to get this done...but through the Dept of Ed ...

A go fund me, with every signer of that petition giving $20, (approx 500000 total?) would pay for a lawyer to sue for reform and demand of the DOE that higher standards be implemented...done


Last rant: if I read that 25000 (?) professionals signed a petition about their concerns and I was thinking of taking $100000 plus loan to join that profession......hmmm that might be a red flag
 
People do read them.... the accreditation agency felt the need to respond!

My main point: there is a legal, democratic way to get this done...but through the Dept of Ed ...

A go fund me, with every signer of that petition giving $20, (approx 500000 total?) would pay for a lawyer to sue for reform and demand of the DOE that higher standards be implemented...done


Last rant: if I read that 25000 (?) professionals signed a petition about their concerns and I was thinking of taking $100000 plus loan to join that profession......hmmm that might be a red flag

That is what I have been saying. Pharmacists and students get together to sue them for damages to the profession. Show them some real teeth.
 
How would this be possible? Don't the schools pay the sites?
Some do and some don't. Now would be a GREAT time to put the squeeze on the schools and demand more money for rotation sites.
 
Some do and some don't. Now would be a GREAT time to put the squeeze on the schools and demand more money for rotation sites.

I thought you said stop precepting, not making more money for rotation sites (which will be just passed onto students). Two different things 🙂

Stop precepting students...only way to stop this problem
 
Some do and some don't. Now would be a GREAT time to put the squeeze on the schools and demand more money for rotation sites.

That would just increase tuition and student loan debt even more...
 
People do read them.... the accreditation agency felt the need to respond!

My main point: there is a legal, democratic way to get this done...but through the Dept of Ed ...

A go fund me, with every signer of that petition giving $20, (approx 500000 total?) would pay for a lawyer to sue for reform and demand of the DOE that higher standards be implemented...done


Last rant: if I read that 25000 (?) professionals signed a petition about their concerns and I was thinking of taking $100000 plus loan to join that profession......hmmm that might be a red flag

start one
 
How would this be possible? Don't the schools pay the sites?

We only precept students from established schools, mostly because we don’t have the bandwidth to take on even more students or the administrative burden of dealing with another institutional agreement.

So sites absolutely have a choice. Students cost more in time than schools reimburse, so unless you’re paying for a full FTE pharmacist, I’m not going to be interested.
 
That would just increase tuition and student loan debt even more...
That is true and also the point. The point to make pharmacy school so unaffordable that only the insane would sign up for it or at least the for-profit schools. If I was a DOP at as hospital, I can't even guess how much I would charge for a P4 rotation but it would be 5 digits or they can find someone else and good luck in this market getting your ACPE mandatory "on-time" graduation rate met. Schools are willing right now to do anything to met that standard so preceptors take advantage while you can.

The bottom line is that you can start petitions but the almighty dollar rules and the faster we can get rid of some of these schools the better. Yes, we may have to even push some people off the edge. I will start with everyone at AACP.
 
We only precept students from established schools, mostly because we don’t have the bandwidth to take on even more students or the administrative burden of dealing with another institutional agreement.

So sites absolutely have a choice. Students cost more in time than schools reimburse, so unless you’re paying for a full FTE pharmacist, I’m not going to be interested.

I’ve been saying the exact same thing. I even take it further, stop allowing students from these schools to attend pharmacy conferences, and don’t hire these students. Of course the chains don’t give a crap as long the they are licensed, If you’re Walgreens a Tech license is even adequate. The irony is the deans of these new schools are typically former pharmacy organization presidents, that’s why I call them sell outs.
 
That is true and also the point. The point to make pharmacy school so unaffordable that only the insane would sign up for it or at least the for-profit schools. If I was a DOP at as hospital, I can't even guess how much I would charge for a P4 rotation but it would be 5 digits or they can find someone else and good luck in this market getting your ACPE mandatory "on-time" graduation rate met. Schools are willing right now to do anything to met that standard so preceptors take advantage while you can.

The bottom line is that you can start petitions but the almighty dollar rules and the faster we can get rid of some of these schools the better. Yes, we may have to even push some people off the edge. I will start with everyone at AACP.

Not really, the average pre-pharms do not consider their cost or future at all. They will take out loans like there's no tomorrow. See this thread.

Not enough money from GradPlus
 
Students are desperate to get a leg up in the Hunger Games so they’ll be willing to pay a premium to complete rotations at the more prestigious rotation sites. How they pay for it? More loans.

Don’t want to pay extra for upgraded rotation sites? Enjoy most of your rotations in retail while you get the worst of all hospital, amb care, etc. sites where you’ll be treated as free labor.
 
IMHO, the pharmacy profession / field got to this point (and potential worse) due to school greed, corruption of power from those accreditation bodies and pharmacy associations, and the lack of resistance / opposition from pharmacists and students (not many want to stand up for themselves).

This situation is not really isolated in pharmacy as I see it in many other fields as well. But it seems that pharmacy got it worse.

Funny thing I see is that those pharmacy professors / schools and associations are lecturing us about altruism, how they are out there serving the community, advancing the profession, and all the nice words to cover up the fact that they are only out trying to make a buck for themselves, taking advantage of the trust of naive students who are trained not to think any different but follow whatever they are taught.
 
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