No Honors in Clerkships, does it really matter?

[Cheyf]

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Hi all,

I am from a middle tier school in the South, and I think I want to match into Diagnostic Rads, particularly in the Midwest (Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland). My fiancee (who wants to do ophtho with a score of 241) and I aren't too picky about which city nor which program, though obviously we are looking at middle tier programs (not the U of M's, but like Henry Ford, Wayne State, etc).

I got a 219 on step 1. I have been getting a mix of passes and high passes, but I haven't gotten any honors yet on any rotations. Does this really reflect that poorly on my application, or is that respectable and around average? Really, I just want to get a feel of where I stand. Of course I will continue to try to improve my shelf scores and my Step 2 CK, but how does just middle of the pack grades look or even just all passes? Thanks for any advice 🙂

 

[Psai]

Below average but rads is much easier than it was even 3 years ago

 

[J ROD]

I think you need to get a strong CK more than anything. And doing couples match is harder overall and usually requires strong apps to both get in the same place. And both fields are competitive.

So, you are behind.......time to start peddling....

 

[seminoma]

We have P/F clerkships at my school and people match to big name programs in competitive specialties every year. Based on that alone I like to think the importance of honors in clerkships thing is overblown. My school has a pretty good reputation, but not like Yale or Harvard where the name might help significantly.

 

[Ismet]

We have P/F clerkships at my school and people match to big name programs in competitive specialties every year. Based on that alone I like to think the importance of honors in clerkships thing is overblown. My school has a pretty good reputation, but not like Yale or Harvard where the name might help significantly.

Yeah but how much of that is due to residency programs knowing that Honors is not even an option at your school? Your MSPE has a breakdown of the scoring. You're not going to be judged for not having Honors or High Pass if that wasn't even a possibility.

 

[qwerty89]

Below average but rads is much easier than it was even 3 years ago

Eh. Based on the rads thread it looks like there has been an increase in the # of apps this year. Given that the # of med schools has been increasing this was only a matter of time (even if the proportion of all students applying rads declines). It appears last year was the bottom of competitiveness.

That said those cities are top of the list of undesirable cities which makes them less competitive than you would expect given their caliber. OP will be fine.

 

[Cheyf]

Thanks for the replies! Glad to know all this. I am trying hard to get at least high pass in medicine and to score above average on Step 2.

 

[seminoma]

Yeah but how much of that is due to residency programs knowing that Honors is not even an option at your school? Your MSPE has a breakdown of the scoring. You're not going to be judged for not having Honors or High Pass if that wasn't even a possibility.

The MSPE samples they provided to us do not have a breakdown of scoring. I'm sure some PDs out there know, from experience with my school, that we have P/F only, but I doubt the majority are aware. Of course the MSPE samples could just be incomplete.

Either way it seems a little unfair (to students from H/HP/P/F schools) that the weight of "P" has significant variability. In other words, a "P"-quality student at a H/HP/P/F school could be exactly the same as a "P"-quality student at a P/F school, but based on what you're saying the PDs don't look down on my P as much because I simply can't get Honors.

 

[Jabbed]

The MSPE samples they provided to us do not have a breakdown of scoring. I'm sure some PDs out there know, from experience with my school, that we have P/F only, but I doubt the majority are aware. Of course the MSPE samples could just be incomplete.

Either way it seems a little unfair (to students from H/HP/P/F schools) that the weight of "P" has significant variability. In other words, a "P"-quality student at a H/HP/P/F school could be exactly the same as a "P"-quality student at a P/F school, but based on what you're saying the PDs don't look down on my P as much because I simply can't get Honors.

Clinical clerkships are P/F unranked at your program??

 

[seminoma]

Clinical clerkships are P/F unranked at your program??

P/F yes. Ranking specifics are complicated, but there is no internal or published ranking for each clerkship or for M3 overall.

 

[Ismet]

The MSPE samples they provided to us do not have a breakdown of scoring. I'm sure some PDs out there know, from experience with my school, that we have P/F only, but I doubt the majority are aware. Of course the MSPE samples could just be incomplete.

Either way it seems a little unfair (to students from H/HP/P/F schools) that the weight of "P" has significant variability. In other words, a "P"-quality student at a H/HP/P/F school could be exactly the same as a "P"-quality student at a P/F school, but based on what you're saying the PDs don't look down on my P as much because I simply can't get Honors.

Did your sample MSPE have an appendix? That's where they put information about grading.

There is significant variability even between H/HP/P schools. At many schools, the majority get HP and you have to be pretty bad to get P. At others, P is the default and you have to be 4th year or intern level to get Honors. Or get lucky and not have any attendings who limit the number of Honors they give out. Or not have an attending who just gives you a pass because you're a new 3rd year. There definitely needs to be more standardization, but it's difficult to standardize subjective grades.

 

[psychmdhopeful]

.

 

[dartmed]

OP, I go to a mid-tier program. It's almost nearly impossible to H at my school. For instance, our strict cut off for H is a 94% overall. It means H on every single evaluation of your clerkship along with scoring at least above the 80th percentile on your SHELF. It's almost impossible. Oh well. But, our Deans assured us that most programs will take into account that we only award a couple H/HP. We shall see.

 

[general admission]

OP, I go to a mid-tier program. It's almost nearly impossible to H at my school. For instance, our strict cut off for H is a 94% overall. It means H on every single evaluation of your clerkship along with scoring at least above the 80th percentile on your SHELF. It's almost impossible. Oh well. But, our Deans assured us that most programs will take into account that we only award a couple H/HP. We shall see.

Sorry, but that's straight up horse****. When you're reviewing hundreds of apps, you're not going to take the time to sift through the detailed breakdowns buried in the MSPE, unless you're very familiar with that particular school. Your school is screwing you with this policy, and there's no two ways about it. Other schools literally have 75% shelf (and with few or little "Honors" evals) as Honors criteria - just fyi.

 

[username456789]

Sorry, but that's straight up horse****. When you're reviewing hundreds of apps, you're not going to take the time to sift through the detailed breakdowns buried in the MSPE, unless you're very familiar with that particular school. Your school is screwing you with this policy, and there's no two ways about it. Other schools literally have 75% shelf (and with few or little "Honors" evals) as Honors criteria - just fyi.

There's a big colorful chart they get that makes it super easy. Shows the overall distribution of grades, and a quick glance can tell you whether the student goes to one of the many schools with grade inflation or one that treats "honors" as something only a few attain.

The chart actually came up in conversation a few times when I was interviewing for residency (and each time it was handed to me to look at).

 

[charmiedermie]

Sorry, but that's straight up horse****. When you're reviewing hundreds of apps, you're not going to take the time to sift through the detailed breakdowns buried in the MSPE, unless you're very familiar with that particular school. Your school is screwing you with this policy, and there's no two ways about it. Other schools literally have 75% shelf (and with few or little "Honors" evals) as Honors criteria - just fyi.

Your MSPE has bar graphs at the end that shows the percent of people who got H, HP, and so on with an arrow showing which grade you got and the bar you fall into. They don't have to sift thru them. They just have to flip thru the end. I don't know any school that makes the shelf worth 75% of your grade, or no one would care about clinical evals.

 

[dartmed]

Sorry, but that's straight up horse****. When you're reviewing hundreds of apps, you're not going to take the time to sift through the detailed breakdowns buried in the MSPE, unless you're very familiar with that particular school. Your school is screwing you with this policy, and there's no two ways about it. Other schools literally have 75% shelf (and with few or little "Honors" evals) as Honors criteria - just fyi.

It's frustrating to say the least especially when you get an 89% overall in a Clerkship and you are not even remotely close to at least a HP. Oh well. I will say that I feel more competent clinically than the students at a different medical school down the street (it's an MD school as well). Is it because we as an institution try so hard because we have such a tough grading policy? Is it because we are better trained clinically? No one knows.

 

[seminoma]

Did your sample MSPE have an appendix? That's where they put information about grading.

There is significant variability even between H/HP/P schools. At many schools, the majority get HP and you have to be pretty bad to get P. At others, P is the default and you have to be 4th year or intern level to get Honors. Or get lucky and not have any attendings who limit the number of Honors they give out. Or not have an attending who just gives you a pass because you're a new 3rd year. There definitely needs to be more standardization, but it's difficult to standardize subjective grades.

Nope, no appendix. It's just a single page document that looks just like a college transcript with comments from each clerkships evaluation.

 

[Ismet]

Nope, no appendix. It's just a single page document that looks just like a college transcript with comments from each clerkships evaluation.

Either they didn't show you the full MSPE or your school is doing you a huge disservice. Ours have like 1.5 pages of a description of who we are and comments of support, then clerkship evals, then an appendix. Whether or not PDs read the whole thing is another thing, but it's a pretty good snapshot of who we are since our respective deans get to know us pretty well over 3 years.

 

[operaman]

Ours had an appendix too. I believe most if not all do. Our sample ones didn't include it because there's no real need to explain the grading and curriculum to those of us who just went through it. They were very open that one was included though; I had asked because some of our courses and rotations were strictly p/f while others had h/p/f.

I don't have the link handy, but there was a great paper in a radiology journal not long ago that dealt with decoding the mspe. Interesting to see all the different approaches.

 

[Jabbed]

Ours had an appendix too. I believe most if not all do. Our sample ones didn't include it because there's no real need to explain the grading and curriculum to those of us who just went through it. They were very open that one was included though; I had asked because some of our courses and rotations were strictly p/f while others had h/p/f.

I don't have the link handy, but there was a great paper in a radiology journal not long ago that dealt with decoding the mspe. Interesting to see all the different approaches.

http://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(13)00767-9/addons

 

[psychMDhopefully]

And all this time I didn't think class rank was reported or that it mattered. So if you are in the bottom 25%, 10%, is that explicitly stated, or will the letter just say something like bottom 50%?

 

[Ismet]

And all this time I didn't think class rank was reported or that it mattered. So if you are in the bottom 25%, 10%, is that explicitly stated, or will the letter just say something like bottom 50%?

Your MSPE may have "code words" that are all positive but subtly hint at your rank. Like "outstanding" for top to "strong" or something. Talk to your advisor/whoever writes your MSPE.

 

[Cheyf]

Update: pass in medicine and pass in family med. 🙁

Now I'm on surgery and less than 5% of people have gotten anything but a pass at my school.

The distribution is usually 20% honors, 25% high pass, rest is pass at my school. I'm always just slightly below average on everything. My shelf grades are like always 45th percentile. 🙁 so depressing

 

[TBV]

OP, I go to a mid-tier program. It's almost nearly impossible to H at my school. For instance, our strict cut off for H is a 94% overall. It means H on every single evaluation of your clerkship along with scoring at least above the 80th percentile on your SHELF. It's almost impossible. Oh well. But, our Deans assured us that most programs will take into account that we only award a couple H/HP. We shall see.

Wow what a crock of ****. I don't get why a school would willingly buttf*ck their students under a facade of being tough or strict and then lie to your faces wow

 

[chipwhitley]

It does matter, and no they don't really care to look at your school's distribution and figure out how hard it is to get an H. If your school isn't giving out Hs, then they're basically screwing you.

 

[CheA]

Thanks for the replies! Glad to know all this. I am trying hard to get at least high pass in medicine and to score above average on Step 2.

Don't aim to score "above average" on Step 2. Aim to get 250+ and studying accordingly. You may not get 250, but you may end up with a higher score than you would have expected otherwise.

Don't mean to sound politically incorrect, but if you are a female in radiology applicant pool, the odds will be in your favor compared to male applicants with similar stats, especially at programs that have had a recent streak of male-only classes.

 

[dartmed]

Wow what a crock of ****. I don't get why a school would willingly buttf*ck their students under a facade of being tough or strict and then lie to your faces wow

Essentially. If my grades were transferred to the neighboring school, I would have Honored every single Core. Instead, I HP one Core and passed the rest. That said, our match list has been impressive this year. We sent so many students to Mayo. So many. Haha.