Non-APA Internship Challenges

[psychip32]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hi all,
I am currently on a post-doctoral residency in neuropsychology at a neurologic rehabilitation center here in Florida. I graduated from an APA accredited institution at the top of my class. Sounds good right? Except in the chaos of internship matching, I got sent to one of my lowest choices who told me after the fact during the year I was one of their top choices. Great, except they were with the Federal Bureau of Prisons and were non-accredited but applying for accreditation. Everyone told me it would be fine, I'd be grandfathered in, unfortunately in lieu of the political climate at the institution, they are one of the few sites in the BOP that remains unaccredited.

Now, I'd like to actually work in civil service with the VA, I have a pretty good specialty and would like to work with the vets coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan who are suffering from TBI's. But I can't, you can't apply without an APA accredited internship unless or attended a VA internship that is undergoing accreditation. I'd like to work with the Army, to do the same type of work. But I can't, same policy. I'd love to work with several federal agencies, but I can't with the current policies.

I was just wondering if there is any place anyone knows of out there where I could advocate for a change in this policy. I thought I did everything right, and had far more than the average number of interviews for internship. I matched in 2008, and was happy and felt lucky to match considering there were many individuals nationwide who had to do clearing house, or wait until the next year. It's very frustrating feeling stuck with no options.

thank you in advance to anyone who has any advice or input I really appreciate it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

MOD NOTE: I changed your title since it was very vague. Let me know if you want it to say something different. -t4c

 

[InUrHead]

Wow, no idea but you would think that a non-accredited APA internship at a FEDERAL location would be at least acceptable to other FEDERAL entities say, over a non-accredited counseling center.

I would wonder if contacting APA or the APS about this to see if they have any advocacy groups.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know of a VA site that started off without APA-acred (needed to go through the site visit, etc), though I'm not sure of the outcome and if the interns were able to still be elligible for VA and other gov't positions that req. an APA internship.

 

[JD7699]

Hi all,
I am currently on a post-doctoral residency in neuropsychology at a neurologic rehabilitation center here in Florida. I graduated from an APA accredited institution at the top of my class. Sounds good right? Except in the chaos of internship matching, I got sent to one of my lowest choices who told me after the fact during the year I was one of their top choices. Great, except they were with the Federal Bureau of Prisons and were non-accredited but applying for accreditation. Everyone told me it would be fine, I'd be grandfathered in, unfortunately in lieu of the political climate at the institution, they are one of the few sites in the BOP that remains unaccredited.

Now, I'd like to actually work in civil service with the VA, I have a pretty good specialty and would like to work with the vets coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan who are suffering from TBI's. But I can't, you can't apply without an APA accredited internship unless or attended a VA internship that is undergoing accreditation. I'd like to work with the Army, to do the same type of work. But I can't, same policy. I'd love to work with several federal agencies, but I can't with the current policies.

I was just wondering if there is any place anyone knows of out there where I could advocate for a change in this policy. I thought I did everything right, and had far more than the average number of interviews for internship. I matched in 2008, and was happy and felt lucky to match considering there were many individuals nationwide who had to do clearing house, or wait until the next year. It's very frustrating feeling stuck with no options.

thank you in advance to anyone who has any advice or input I really appreciate it.

I checked this out about 2 years ago when I was exploring jobs for the future. I contacted someone from the VA and inquired. The response was that there is no way to become a psychologist with the VA without an APA program and internship. Maybe this will change some day. I am unaware of any efforts to change this. Today, there are a high percentage of psychologists who do not complete APA internships for a variety of reasons (location, families, finances, etc.) It is possible to contract with the VA, however (example QTC PTSD evaluations). I would have liked the option, but this is the only limitation I have run into so far in my career.

 

[docma]

I think advocacy drawing attention to this kind of circumstance is always good, especially when you have a desired skill set and good documentation. We need to get a quantum number of young career psychologists with this kind of problem keeping up the pressure in order to get some progress. Working through APS is a good idea. We definitely need work-arounds for students who have had no alternative by non-APA routes, but still are well trained and qualified, especially for public service.

 

[JD7699]

I think advocacy drawing attention to this kind of circumstance is always good, especially when you have a desired skill set and good documentation. We need to get a quantum number of young career psychologists with this kind of problem keeping up the pressure in order to get some progress. Working through APS is a good idea. We definitely need work-arounds for students who have had no alternative by non-APA routes, but still are well trained and qualified, especially for public service.

Some organizations recognize individuals who are listed in the National Register as meeting a high standard. It can aid in lieu of APA internship. Would be nice if the VA would consider some other credentialing standard like the National Register. My guess is that they will continue their current requirements unless they have trouble filling jobs. They probably see this as a way have top candidates.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some organizations recognize individuals who are listed in the National Register as meeting a high standard. It can aid in lieu of APA internship. Would be nice if the VA would consider some other credentialing standard like the National Register. My guess is that they will continue their current requirements unless they have trouble filling jobs. They probably see this as a way have top candidates.

There has been increased competition for VA spots in recent years, though there are still spots available because of some of the hiring lags/red tape. I don't see the VA bending on this though, as there are still plenty of APA-acred. graduates.

 

[Annakei]

I think advocacy drawing attention to this kind of circumstance is always good, especially when you have a desired skill set and good documentation. We need to get a quantum number of young career psychologists with this kind of problem keeping up the pressure in order to get some progress. Working through APS is a good idea. We definitely need work-arounds for students who have had no alternative by non-APA routes, but still are well trained and qualified, especially for public service.

Ditto. I think more of you should be on the APAGS listservs voicing your concerns and forcing action from APA. They are on the listservs and they are listening FYI.

 

[JD7699]

There has been increased competition for VA spots in recent years, though there are still spots available because of some of the hiring lags/red tape. I don't see the VA bending on this though, as there are still plenty of APA-acred. graduates.

Yeah, I am not sure of the VA's vacancy rate for licensed psychologists but overall there are plenty of psychologists out there these days and there are less positions due to many county and state agencies converting psychologist positions to LCSW or MFT slots(at least here in CA).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah, I am not sure of the VA's vacancy rate for licensed psychologists but overall there are plenty of psychologists out there these days and there are less positions due to many county and state agencies converting psychologist positions to LCSW or MFT slots(at least here in CA).

Thankfully in the VA system there are still solid positions for psychologists, though the opportunities can be more geographically limited. There are still good opportunities at more rural VAs, as some have a hard time filling spots, but the VA in/around larger cities usually have a plethora of great candidates to choose from. The other challenge is that many psychologists make a career out of working in the VA, and I'd hazard to guess there is less turnover than your typical hospital/clinic/counseling center. I am a BIG fan of the lifestyle a psychologist can have in a VA, and while I am leaving the system for a training opportunity, I can see myself back in a VA setting once I am established and looking for stability.

 

[JD7699]

Thankfully in the VA system there are still solid positions for psychologists, though the opportunities can be more geographically limited. There are still good opportunities at more rural VAs, as some have a hard time filling spots, but the VA in/around larger cities usually have a plethora of great candidates to choose from. The other challenge is that many psychologists make a career out of working in the VA, and I'd hazard to guess there is less turnover than your typical hospital/clinic/counseling center. I am a BIG fan of the lifestyle a psychologist can have in a VA, and while I am leaving the system for a training opportunity, I can see myself back in a VA setting once I am established and looking for stability.

I think that it is important for people to know that individuals can work with veterans in other settings if they lack the APA internship stamp and have a passion for this population. Some companies are contracted by the VA to provide services.

 

[docma]

It is also possible to work in the VA in non-clinical positions--for example on research projects.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know of a VA site that started off without APA-acred (needed to go through the site visit, etc), though I'm not sure of the outcome and if the interns were able to still be elligible for VA and other gov't positions that req. an APA internship.

Here is the answer, ironically posted by me last year.

Veterans Affairs (VA) hospitals and clinics require a psychologist to be a U.S. Citizen, to have graduated from an APA-accredited doctoral program, and to have completed an APA-accredited internship. CPA-accredited doctoral programs and internships do not qualify. However, under certain circumstances, new VA psychology internship programs that are in the process of applying for APA accreditation are acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement. If you have questions about specific VA internship programs, or about the eligibility requirements for VA employment, please contact Dr. Robert Zeiss at the VA's Office of Academic Affiliations at 202-461-9493 or via e-mail at [email protected].

Pulled from here: http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_1_2_17.html

 

[Drconsiglio]

I understand that the VA won't hire a psychologist that has not attended an APA accredited internship, but does anyone know if it is possible to get hired with a contractor that provides services (ie PTSD evals) to the VA? I am currently in the midst of being credentialed by the VA, for just such a purpose, having been led to believe by the contractor that this was a go, but reading these posts, I have been getting discouraged.

 

[DrGero]

I understand that the VA won't hire a psychologist that has not attended an APA accredited internship, but does anyone know if it is possible to get hired with a contractor that provides services (ie PTSD evals) to the VA? I am currently in the midst of being credentialed by the VA, for just such a purpose, having been led to believe by the contractor that this was a go, but reading these posts, I have been getting discouraged.

Find your local VA and contact their HR department. If the specialist you get connected with doesn't know, ask to be connected to someone who does. It may be worth the info - I understand that the VA tends to have an ongoing need for contractors, such as for Comp. and Pen. evals.

 

[docma]

I know graduates of APPIC, non-APA programs who have been employed in VA/University consortium settings--usually in clinical research/academic roles but often with clinical populations. The VA may also have some varying standards for positions that are not direct clinical services with title of "clinical psychologist"--but related to rehab, etc.

 

[erg923]

Rereading the OP's post, isn't odd that his internship confided to him that he was one of their top choices? I didn't think sites ever revealed that information, even after an applicant matches?

 

[OskarWerner]

I've come across this policy myself, and I have to admit that I feel somewhat frustrated by it. I am a veteran and liked the idea of working with this population. However I had not been able to go through a APA internship because at the time I could not physically relocate. I know that the VA advertises constantly and talking to people working there, even in city areas, speak about how they feel frequently undermanned because of this policy. Recently I thought that I could get around it by contracting, but despite being well qualified was still refused. Mind you, for a position that they have been unable to fill for several months. There is, by the way, no such restriction on the hiring of LCSWs. They need to simply be licensed. The Air Force also has a similar policy and I recently had an application rejected for them. I would like to find an official agency to complain to about this. I have even wondered, along with a friend, if this requirement is a violation of the law against restriction of trade. A last curious note is that I have heard rumor that the VAs themselves have a lot of problems maintaining these programs.

 

[Sanman]

A last curious note is that I have heard rumor that the VAs themselves have a lot of problems maintaining these programs.

Which programs are you referring to?


As for the rest, the VA is a competitive environment for psychology. Almost all of my fellow VA interns/post-docs ended up returning to the VA system or are looking for a way back. I know that I will be looking for a VA position after this year when I settle somewhere with my gf.

 

[erg923]

I've come across this policy myself, and I have to admit that I feel somewhat frustrated by it. I am a veteran and liked the idea of working with this population. However I had not been able to go through a APA internship because at the time I could not physically relocate. I know that the VA advertises constantly and talking to people working there, even in city areas, speak about how they feel frequently undermanned because of this policy. Recently I thought that I could get around it by contracting, but despite being well qualified was still refused. Mind you, for a position that they have been unable to fill for several months. There is, by the way, no such restriction on the hiring of LCSWs. They need to simply be licensed. The Air Force also has a similar policy and I recently had an application rejected for them. I would like to find an official agency to complain to about this. I have even wondered, along with a friend, if this requirement is a violation of the law against restriction of trade. A last curious note is that I have heard rumor that the VAs themselves have a lot of problems maintaining these programs.

Complain? About what? That the VA has a standard for hiring that you don't like cause you dont meet it? Get real, man.

Second, I dont know what VA "program" you are referring to but the VA has NO problems filling psychologist positions in all but the most rural of locations...a problem EVERY profession struggles with in areas like that. So, I would ask you, what incentive do they have to change the policy? What's in it for them?

Lastly, with regards to "restraint of trade," you need to look up the term and how it can and can not be applied. Setting a basic standard (an accredited internship program) that many can and do complete every year is hardly a "restraint of trade..."

 

[voyeurofthemind]

From what I understand, you can still work in the VA system coming from a non-APA internship provided you get boarded by the ABPP. Get your diplomate and you should be fine.

 

[erg923]

From what I understand, you can still work in the VA system coming from a non-APA internship provided you get boarded by the ABPP. Get your diplomate and you should be fine.

No

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

From what I understand, you can still work in the VA system coming from a non-APA internship provided you get boarded by the ABPP. Get your diplomate and you should be fine.

441....eh, just kidding. 😀

This is incorrect.

Here is the exact language from the VA:

(2) Have successfully completed a professional psychology internship training program that has been accredited by APA.
Exceptions:
(1) new VHA psychology internship programs that are in the process of applying for APA accreditation are acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement, provided that such programs were sanctioned by the VHA Central Office Program Director for Psychology and the VHA Central Office of Academic Affiliations at the time that the individual was an intern and
(2) VHA facilities who offered full one-year pre-doctoral internships prior to PL 96-151 (pre-1979) are considered to be acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement. ​

 

[MCParent]

It's not violation of restraint of trade.

The entire field is moving, appropriately, to requiring accreditation at the doctoral ad internship levels.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/06/soe.aspx

 

[edieb]

Which programs are you referring to?


As for the rest, the VA is a competitive environment for psychology. Almost all of my fellow VA interns/post-docs ended up returning to the VA system or are looking for a way back. I know that I will be looking for a VA position after this year when I settle somewhere with my gf.

I think the level of competition to acquire a V.A.position in our field speaks to just how bad things are for clinical and neuropsychology. In other fields, such as medicine (including psychiatry), nursing and OT/PT, the V.A. has a massive problem filling positions but in our field the opposite is true. I think this speaks to how low our pay is in the private sector. And if government is the primary employer, as opposed to the private sector, your field is pretty much screwed

And speaking to the original post, if you didn't want the consequences of a non-APA internshi9p, you shouldn't have ranked one in the first place. People need to learn that there are consequences for their actions

 

[Sanman]

I think the level of competition to acquire a V.A.position in our field speaks to just how bad things are for clinical and neuropsychology. In other fields, such as medicine (including psychiatry), nursing and OT/PT, the V.A. has a massive problem filling positions but in our field the opposite is true. I think this speaks to how low our pay is in the private sector. And if government is the primary employer, as opposed to the private sector, your field is pretty much screwed

It depends on the area of practice. The VA hospitals I have worked at had little trouble keeping generalists, neurologists, rehab medicine, and lower paid specialties on staff. They had tremendous difficulty with surgical specialties and subspecialties like ortho because the VA does not alter pay by specialty as drastically as other places and even the reduced hours don't account for the pay difference. Hence, it is a bum deal for them. As for psychology, The VA offers about the same or a bit less money than a successful private practice while removing some of the headaches and hours involved there.

 

[JeyRo]

It depends on the area of practice. The VA hospitals I have worked at had little trouble keeping generalists, neurologists, rehab medicine, and lower paid specialties on staff. They had tremendous difficulty with surgical specialties and subspecialties like ortho because the VA does not alter pay by specialty as drastically as other places and even the reduced hours don't account for the pay difference. Hence, it is a bum deal for them. As for psychology, The VA offers about the same or a bit less money than a successful private practice while removing some of the headaches and hours involved there.

I believe all psychologists at the VA are paid the same base rate. The only thing that varies is the locality adjustment, which is (supposed to) account for the variability in cost of living (personally, however, I think psychologists working in high cost-of-living areas get a little screwed by the formula).

I think the truth here is somewhere in the middle. My sense is that the VA pays psychologists somewhat less than many successful psychologists make in private practice, but then again, the benefits are quite good and depending on which VA you work at, the work environment (flexibility of schedule, respect, work-life balance, etc) can be exceptional.

I'd say I've been lucky and have the job with an exceptional work environment, although I know there are other psychologists who do the same thing I do in a neighboring VISN who are treated much worse than I (e.g., not respected, hugely overburdened with paperwork and meaningless busywork, etc). So it depends on the VA you work at.