Nontrad that could *really* use expert advice

[nontrad314]

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Hello to all you sdn-ers!
Here's the deal: I could really use some input! First I'm going to lay out some some stuff about my background, and then I have some specific questions.

My sit. is (maybe) unusual: 32 yrs old. Hold a PhD in a science from a competitive program in a competitive field. For 4 years worked as an applied math guy, wich led to some recognition (invited talks in foreign places), publications, a good job, competitive offers for post docs, so on. I live comfortably and
could be more so if I wanted. Work's good: autonomous, interesting, challenging, growing, bla bla.

Crucially, I find my work (which threatens to become my life's
work) doesn't satisfy in terms of contributing in a meaningful way (which i've learned has become more important to me over the years ). In u-grad + grad I liked teaching (taught 100's of stdnts over about 10 years) for related reasons.
Similarly, research (which I've done alot of) isn't for me due to its associated impact (or lack thereof).

In my extended family 4 attended med school and 3 practiced happily. Others pursued nursing, dentistry, and vet. med.
Friends from u-grad are now finishing their residencies and report
extreme satisfaction. As with most on the forum,
medicine was always something on the horizon for me (whispered in the ear and contemplated as seriously as a teenager can contemplate such things). But instead of med,
I went down a road I found challenging and interesting, met with success, and followed it to where I am now, which actually is good ground to be on.

But, for alot of reasons, about a year ago I *definitively* decided to pursue medicine. (That choice came out of alot of homework and some long conversations with physicians in the family etc). So here I am now in the app process, trying to get a bearing.

Before taking my premed courses I took the mcat and got a 30. I'm pretty sure that if I took it again (having now studied bio, chem, and ochem) I could do better maybe get a couple more points maybe more. My gpa is a 3.42 u-grad and a 3.88 grad. Both science. I minored in humanities; e.g., the western canon and all that. I volunteer on the weekends in an er (sat nights for
about the last 6 mo, which I really like for alot of reasons). So those are my `numbers'.

Otherwise, I have traveled a bit (middle east and europe; lived in europe for 10 years as a child where I aquired a first hand experience with socialized medicine / came close to being killed by it). Worked for a summer in the Alaskan commercial fishery as a deck hand in russia, in another summer worked on a ranch in the southwest. I run marathons, hike, bicycle, swim, etc. So, I'm sort of outdoorsy: A t-shirt and jeans `guy' that would rather be outside and probably says `dude' and `man' more than he should.

Anway, I threw together the above into amcas applications and mailed to 6 schools really late in the process (around Nov). I knew I was late, but decided to take the shot anyway. When I sent I had no idea what my mcat was and I had no idea about residency requirements. My safety was my state school, where I interviewed (badly: crisis in the family the
night before being 1 explanation). At best I'm now waitlisted there, which as far as I'm concerned means rejected. I did get 2 outright rejections (a UC and UW), which were attributed to residency. Silence from the 2 others I take to be rejects due at
least to lateness in applying (or maybe something more which I cannot see at this point).

So, now I'm now down to 1. I take that to mean I'll be applying again in May (early this time!) for 2005.

That's the background.

Here's my question for the expert sdn'ers that know about these kinds of things:

Given that I have extensive teaching / research / hard science (=PhD), with a 30 mcat and am of the `outdoorsy' variety, do you

a. Have any recommendations for schools I should apply to or
b. ways I should present myself based on this or
c. gaps I need to work on going in to this next round (and possibly the one after that)?

Here's the thing, whether I'm right or not, I truly believe deep down that I can be a good physician. So I'm wondering: What I have to do to get the admin folks to see that too?

I have more questions (about whether or not to take the mcat again, whether or not to move to a state to establishe residence etc etc, but for now I'll just stick to those above.)

I know this one is sort of weird, but many thanks before hand to all or any input!

 

[ATPase]

I'm impressed that you got a 30 on the MCAT without taking any prereqs. Seems like you could take it again and probably score higher. Maybe the schools expect you to have a really high MCAT (not that a 30 is bad or anything) since you have a PhD in the sciences, I don't know.

Do you have community service activities? That always helps.

If you don't end up getting in off the waitlist, why not speak with the adcoms or deans at the schools you applied to and ask them what you could do to strengthen your application?

 

[nontrad314]

ATPase

thanks!

yes exactly: what does an mcat score mean if you have a phd already? should i communicate that that score comes without
having taken chem / ochem or bio? does a phd mean you have to score super high or what? should i invest my time on learning how to take the mcat or should i invest my time in learning med; e.g, phys, anat, pharm, path etc.

i *really* don't know the answers to these questions.

but in terms of talking to the admin folks, do you know how i can go about doing that? just call?

thanks again

nontrad314

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by nontrad314
Friends from u-grad are now finishing their residencies and report
extreme satisfaction.

"report extreme satisfaction"

Spoken like a true PhD in applied math!


Anyhow, first off, it will be quite difficult obtain residency in any state in time to make a difference in your upcoming application save moving at this exact moment. Most states require to you to be domicile in the borders of the state in a non-academic capacity for 12 months prior to your application for it to be considered as in state (of course you can move there now and pay in state tuition AFTER you get accepted, but your app will still be an out of state app).

I think your main problem was the lateness of your app. I dont see any reason why you wont be more successfull next year if you apply to more schools, and early. Consider schools that are known to be non-traditional friendly. You might be suprised which schools are interested in you. One way would be to look up the average age of students at a given school. Another would be to call up the schools and see how receptive they are to non-trads. Again, apply to MANY more schools the second time around, and send it in EARLY. good luck.

 

[Chirurgien]

Hey nontrad! I just wanted to say that I admire your brave decision about pursuing a medical career over your current job. It seems like you've given this a lot of thought. Sorry about the lack of acceptances from med schools but remember that the process is still not over by a long shot. Your waitlist can very well turn into an acceptance over the next few months and you may also get more interview offers! So keep your hope and enthusiasm alive! If you do have to apply again next cycle, I would do a few things:

1. If you really feel that you can do MUCH better on the MCAT, then I would go for it. But remember that med schools will still see all your MCAT scores from the April 2003 exam on. I would only re-take it if I felt that I could do A LOT better than my current score.

2. Apply to more schools - generally between 10 and 20 to help increase your chances of an acceptance. There are A LOT of qualified, mature, smart applicants out there and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw that the admissions committees happen to pick one over another.

3. Maybe do some more volunteer work in other departments of the hospital, maybe try working at a clinic, etc to expose you to the different faces of medicine.

Best of luck to you!

 

[taehong81]

I think that you have a unique and strong application and you can do much better if you apply early next year. If you had the time, it would be good idea to retake the MCAT and see how you can do after you have studied for it (even without retaking the MCAT I think you have a great chance of being accepted). Just apply early to wide variety of schools. From the schools that I applied to, Case Western Reserve seems to accept lots of non-traditional students. Good luck!

 

[ATPase]

I think exmike is right about the timing of your app. Getting it in early (i.e. June/July) would help next time around, I think.

As for the MCAT, I really don't know what they'd expect of you as a PhD. I was just trying to think of possible reasons for the rejections/waitlists. However, I tend to agree with exmike's interpretation, so maybe you'll be okay without retaking the MCAT. A 30 is by no means a bad score.

If you are outdoorsy, Dartmouth is a good school to apply to (assuming you like cold weather.) I think they like nontrads. But they seem to place heavy emphasis on community service extracurricular activities - not sure if you have those or not. They also like to compile a class of diverse students, and you definitely have a diverse background of experiences.

 

[greggth]

nontrad314,

My experience is similar to yours. (PhD in sciences, older applicant, only recently decided to enter medicine.)
I applied and got a bunch of interviews and got into one school (so far). I will tell you which schools I interviewed at, if you private-message me.

As far as the MCAT goes, I'd guess you could get a 35 or better by retaking it, if you were to prepare using a Kaplan course and Examkrackers books and Audio Osmosis. It may be worth it, since it doesn't sound like your Ph.D. work was in biological sciences.
Also get the free AAMC study guide for the MCAT at
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/studentmanual/fullstudentmanual.pdf
But then again, you already have a Ph.D. and got a 30, so I don't know if it's that important.

The adcoms will ask, why do you want the MD degree? Are you just collecting degrees? Are you in it for the money? Do you really know what the daily life of a physician is like? To answer these questions better, it might help if you had more medical experience - ambulance, and non-emergency-room experience in the hospital.

You ought to get an advisor. Find a professor at a med school who is willing to advise you about what you need to do to improve your record. You can also try presenting your case to directors of admissions and get their feedback. I know of one nice person who might help-- ask in your private message to me.

 

[Petitpois]

ditto on applying to Dartmouth. Two other schools that are outdoorsy and like non-trads are OHSU and Univ. of Vermont. Both of these schools also take a large amount of their students from out of state (no residency requirements). Especially with Oregon, life experience, which you seem to have in spades, appears to be highly regarded. 🙂

 

[skypilot]

Seconding what everyone said. Get some hands on clinical experience. Apply in June and include lots of less prestigious expensive private schools in your list of 15 schools to apply to and you will get in somewhere no problem.

 

[CanIBeMe??]

I definitely agree with what everyone has posted!! In addition, I also say do not give up hope yet on that waitlist position. Many state schools go deep into their waitlist. A former co-worker of mine recieved a call about two weeks before the semester started, left us that afternoon to go find housing and plan a move about 8 hours away.

Can you find out where you are on the waitlist? If it is an institution that you are seriously interested in attending is there anything else you can do to update your file?? Like a letter of intent?

Also, I agree with the Greggth in regards to your clinical experience. Most people like the drama and adrenline rush of the ER, but it is not what the "typical" physican experiences. Perhaps try shadowing a Primary Care or Family Doctor or even a specialist in which a doctor-patient relationship is developed over more than 15 minutes, where there is a follow-up with the patient......etc For non-trads, providing evidence of this is what you want and you know what to expect is very important. Diversifying your clinical experiences shows the adcom that you are aware of the diversity in the field......and not just the specialty that eveyone watches on TV.

GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[nontrad314]

exmike:
* You sussed me out re: a-math!
* Re: residency. Your right. But, it's possible for me to pull up stakes and relocate now if necessary. Bit extreme and would prefer not to do so. Thanks for the tip tho.

*Thanks for the tip on timing!
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Chirurgien:
* Thanks for the shot on the arm!
* Check on mcat
* Check on sample size
* Check on clinical exp
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taehong81
* Thanks for the endorsement! Seriously, all outside views are appreciated.
* Check on timing
* Check on mcat.
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ATPase
* Check on timing
* Ok on mcat
* Many thanks for the Dartmouth tip! Exactly what I was looking for.
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greggh
* I'll pm
* Thanks for the tips re mcat
* Re `collecting degrees'. I hear you there! The thing is, I've cut so much bait at this point that all I want to do is fish for the rest of my life. *But* since med school is only 2 yrs `in class' and 2
clinical I can grin and bear it. 2 yrs never hurt anyone.
----------------------
Petitpois
* Thanks for the Vermont + Oregon tips! Excellent!
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skypilot
* Thanks for the endorsement
* Thanks for the tips re private schools. Do you have any names in mind? PM if you like (I think I have it active)
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CanIBeMe
*Hmm. The co-worker input is interesting.
*I am interested in family practice. Had a relative GP who practiced in rural areas in the Dakotas. For related reasons, am interested in Alaska's family practice residency. The shadowing you mention is then excellent input. Many thanks!

 

[Tezzie]

Hey nontrad. I have a question. Does the 314 refer to the STL area code? Just curious 😛

Anyway i think you got great advice. I was just wondering what is your state of residency. The process is not over yet and even if you had a bad interview it doesn't matter. My worst interviews lead to acceptances (my JHU interview was by far the worst and still got accepted).

I think you still are a very strong applicant. Agreed on the whole shadowing issue. It can help you a lot.

Do you think you are ready to take the April MCAT this time around? If yes then go ahead and do so and then apply as early as possible this year.

It seems that what killed you in the process was the timing of your application. Anyway if you are to re apply take a look into Dartmouth, SLU, Loyola, Yeshiva, Ohio State, Jeff, etc. I think with your scores and your great ECs you should receive multiple acceptances if you apply early.

Good luck!

 

[Amy B]

Hi and welcome to SDN.

I really don't think anything is wrong with your application. I must agree that it must be due to the late date. I would get in touch with the rejection school and ask them to go over your application and give you a reason for the rejection. They are willing to do this for an applicant.

I would also get in touch with the other schools and see what your application status is with them.

I would also wonder..... how does your essay sound? Is it sincere, does it come clear as to the reason you want to become a doctor? Is it a personable sounding essay?

Other than those suggestions, I would say apply again if you don't get in and apply to more schools this time. Make sure your stats are in the range for the schools you are applying to.

Good luck and don't forget to check out the sister site to SDN for older prepmeds.
http://www.oldpremeds.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=

 

[tofurious]

PMed you.

 

[nontrad314]

tezzie:
*first i picked nontrad as my userid, but someone has that one. so i picked a no. (pi) and stuck it on the end.
*many thanks for the schools and the confidence. both are seriously appreciated.
------------------------
amy:
*Ok. Many thanks for the link, the tip on the rejects, and the timing.
* The PS. Yes indeed. I would have no problem pm-ing that to someone with 2000+ posts such as yourself. Infact, i would appreciate some feedback on what I said. But, I also understand the imposition involved with that sort of thing.

nontrad314

 

[gschl1234]

Originally posted by nontrad314
yes exactly: what does an mcat score mean if you have a phd already? should i communicate that that score comes without
having taken chem / ochem or bio?

I did something similar to you but realized during my Master's that my chosen field wasn't right for me for the same reason as yours. I hadn't had any bio before taking the MCAT but the issue is moot because when you fill out your primary application, you have to list out all the courses you have taken and are about to take. It will be obvious that you have yet to take gen chem/o-chem/bio. I've been to one interview where the interviewers had seen my entire application and the subject of MCAT/GPA never even came up. Your grades/MCAT as they stand are fine so if you get past the initial screener in the admissions office it probably won't be an issue at all. I would think that at the interviews they may ask more about "why did you change careers now?" etc...By the way, I am currently taking gen. bio and it is a complete waste of time. Nothing in there will help on the MCAT. For the biological sciences section taking biochem/human physiology/cell biology will probably help a lot more.

 

[elias514]

Here's some advice for you:

1. Retake the MCAT and ace it--i.e., score at or above the 95th percentile (around a 34 I believe). In light of the fact that you earned a 30 without having taken the prerequisites, it is highly likely that you could boost your score into this percentile with targeted, intense preparation. The best preparation for the MCAT is to take as many practice tests as you possibly can; additionally, it's crucial that you UNDERSTAND rather than memorize, which shouldn't be a problem, since you have a PhD (thus, you already have an inquisitive mind prone to asking "why is this the way it is?").
It's much harder to turn down a candidate with your credentials who has a truly extraordinary MCAT score than one with a 30, which is competitive but not exemplary. Make the admissions committees think twice before they cut you.

2. Treat your life experience, including your age, as an asset rather than a liability. From a statistical vantage point, the rate of admission for applicants over 30 years old is relatively abysmal, and consequently many nontraditional applicants in this age bracket treat their age as a barrier to admission. Don't do that. Age--life experience--is a wonderful asset to have in the admissions process. Think about how much you've learned in the past 10 years, how much wiser you are, how much better you've become at dealing with people around you and coping with difficult situations. A tremendous amount of personal growth can occur in 10 years. This personal growth borne from life experience is a crucial component of excellent doctoring--it enables the physician to connect with patients. Let me put it this way: if you had to choose between a physician in his mid twenties or a physician in his mid-thirties, and both physicians were equally competent, which one would you choose?

3. Apply as early as possible this cycle. Get your AMCAS application on June 1st. Send out your secondary applications as soon as possible (July, most likely).

4. In your personal statement capture the essential motivation underlying your decision to study medicine. Preferably, this motivation should be anecdotal--doctors like anecdotal stuff. Also, capitalize on what makes you unique as an applicant. What personal quality separates you from the vast majority of applicants out there, and how will this quality make you an excellent physician? You have plenty to choose from. The fact that you have a PhD in science, means that you'll be more inclined to practice scientifically based medicine and better able to evaluate medical literature (the surest way to grasp the import of other individuals' research is to do research yourself). Your life experience will enable you to connect with a wide variety of patients. The fact that you run marathons means that you're fully capable of "staying the course" in trials of endurance, which medical school and residency training most definitely will be.

5. Be able to thoroughly address the question of why you're changing careers and why medicine. If you have a family, be prepared for questions in regards to balancing the demands of medical education and family. How are you going to do it? Is your marriage strong enough to withstand the trials and tribulations of medical education? If you have kids, how do you feel about the prospect of hardly seeing them for 3+ years as resident? Keep in mind that becoming a doctor is a very selfish enterprise. Be prepared to address the pitfalls of this selfish endeavor in the context of family.

6. Apply to at least 20 schools and research the schools beforehand. Definitely apply to schools in the state where you are a legal resident. Most state schools are obligated to offer 90% of their spots to residents, which means that your best chance of admission lies at the state school(s) where you are a resident. Private schools often have arrangements with state governments in which the former agree to offer around 70% of their spots to residents; in exchange, the schools receive funding from the state. It's good to apply to a private school of this sort in your state.
I know of two schools that are known to be "non-trad friendly": Case Western Reserve and Dartmouth. Both are excellent schools. Dartmouth, in particular, is the ideal place for an outdoorsy-type person. The landscape there is absolutely beautiful--definitely one of the most gorgeous places I've ever visited, and I've traveled a lot. So definitely apply to these schools. Both are private.

Hope this helps, and best of luck in the pursuit of your dream!

 

[hobs]

i don't really have much to add in the advice realm, but i just wanted to say good luck! numbers shouldn't be a problem for you, but motivation might. in that sense, seconding what amyB and elias suggested with the personal statement, you may want to make sure that your statement fully and clearly addresses the story of your shift from math to medicine.


hobs

 

[evescadeceus]

One non trad to another. You've got an interesting background, and seem to have thought your decision through carefully. Keep up the good work, and don't give up. You should have some good answers prepared for the hard questions that will come your way during interviews, as one previous post suggested.

I am going to disagree with the prevailing opinion on this post so far, and tell you that they do expect to see a higher mcat than a 30 from a science phD, period. You should communicate that you received that score without studying, and all the necessary prereqs. And you should study your butt off and retake it. It will alleviate a lot of other concerns about your nontrad applicancy, and put you on a stronger footing altogether as you go into interviews.

I can only speak for app cycle at OSU, because so many of my acquaintances and I are going through it right now. Applicants with 30 mcats are getting rejected there. I know of 1 who is waitlisted. Word of mouth suggests that phD's all had scores higher than 33 (in other words, I don't know or know of specific individuals, but I have heard talk, for whatever that's worth).

Wish ya luck
eve

 

[velouria]

Hi, also a non-trad. It sounds like you might have rushed your app a bit (even though you got it in late). If you need to apply again (waitlist isn't necessarily a rejection at this point!) I would suggest spending lots of time on your personal statement.

It's especially important for non-trads to provide a *compelling* argument. You've got tons of interesting accomplishments/hobbies/etc. to talk about, but I would focus more on the WHY, and especially WHY NOW. Maybe you have access to an editor at work or among your friends. Also, have everyone read it and provide comments - parents, family (esp. since you have medical backgrounds in your family), co-workers if possible. My stats were pretty average (31 mcat, 3.5 gpa, 3.3 science gpa) but I was told that my personal statement was excellent, and I think that's probably why I got the responses I did.

Anyway, good luck! It sounds like you're a great applicant!