Nonverbal learning disability Dxed @ 3rd yr

[Nanecci]

I am a 3rd year medical student who has struggled through medical school secondary to standardized exams. In high school I graduated with honors and in college (Tulane) I graduated Magna Cum Laude. Despite these academic successes I've performed poorly on every standardized exam from SATs to MCATs.

I am currently on probation at my medical school for failing a shelf exam. I recently took a battery of exams to address the discrepancy b/w my academic performances and my performance on standardized exams.

The tests demonstrated that, in fact, I have a LD called Nonverbal Learning Disability. While I was relieved to understand that I had a LD all along, I was surprised and very upset at the neuropsychologist's recommendations:

1. That I qualify for extended time in exams (that was cool)
2. THE PT'S DEFICITS WILL LIKELY HINDER HER ABILITY TO SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE MED SCHOOL AND THAT SHE SHOULD LOOK TO ALTERNATIVE VOCATIONAL CHOICES W/ A CAREER COUNSELOR. WTF!!!😕

She painted it as if it were so easy to move on from medical school after sacrificing 10 years of my life (I'm 30) for a career that I feel needed Dr.s w/ actual empathy (this has to do w/ horrible experiences I've experienced by Dr. at my poor father's expense, who recently passed). Not only that, I'm already 200 grand in the hole and have no way of paying it back should I leave (I'm not rich).

I just want to know if I am doomed as she says, if there are others that share similar problems, if I should get a second opinion, etc...

I am very distraught...

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[leahmaria]

It seems to me that you've already successfully completed much of med school--and the standardized exams may continue to be a struggle, but test taking skills aren't what's really needed in medical practice, anyways.

I have no idea about your condition, but perhaps w/ a diagnosis you can now tailor your standardized test preparation to how you learn best.

Certainly don't let anyone decide for you how you're going to live your life 🙂

 

[Nanecci]

Thanks Leah for the support, I am really upset about this....

Blessings!

 

[OncoCaP]

I am a 3rd year medical student who has struggled through medical school secondary to standardized exams. In high school I graduated with honors and in college (Tulane) I graduated Magna Cum Laude. Despite these academic successes I've performed poorly on every standardized exam from SATs to MCATs.

I am currently on probation at my medical school for failing a shelf exam. I recently took a battery of exams to address the discrepancy b/w my academic performances and my performance on standardized exams.

The tests demonstrated that, in fact, I have a LD called Nonverbal Learning Disability. While I was relieved to understand that I had a LD all along, I was surprised and very upset at the neuropsychologist's recommendations:

1. That I qualify for extended time in exams (that was cool)
2. THE PT'S DEFICITS WILL LIKELY HINDER HER ABILITY TO SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE MED SCHOOL AND THAT SHE SHOULD LOOK TO ALTERNATIVE VOCATIONAL CHOICES W/ A CAREER COUNSELOR. WTF!!!😕

She painted it as if it were so easy to move on from medical school after sacrificing 10 years of my life (I'm 30) for a career that I feel needed Dr.s w/ actual empathy (this has to do w/ horrible experiences I've experienced by Dr. at my poor father's expense, who recently passed). Not only that, I'm already 200 grand in the hole and have no way of paying it back should I leave (I'm not rich).

I just want to know if I am doomed as she says, if there are others that share similar problems, if I should get a second opinion, etc...

I am very distraught...

1. Make a follow-up appt with the neuropsychologist and/or a different therapist and try to work through the issues with this diagnosis and/or get more advice or another perspective on what this diagnosis means. Maybe getting a second opinion will help clarify the diagnosis and what it means.

2. Get help from a support group for Nonverbal Learning Disability.

3. Try to figure out if there are study and test taking strategies you can use to pass medical school with your learning disability. Maybe getting more time will be enough help you pass. Try to compensate in acceptable ways.

 

[Nanecci]

1. Make a follow-up appt with the neuropsychologist and/or a different therapist and try to work through the issues with this diagnosis and/or get more advice or another perspective on what this diagnosis means. Maybe getting a second opinion will help clarify the diagnosis and what it means.

2. Get help from a support group for Nonverbal Learning Disability.

3. Try to figure out if there are study and test taking strategies you can use to pass medical school with your learning disability. Maybe getting more time will be enough help you pass. Try to compensate in acceptable ways.

I have, in fact a therapist, and of course plan on seeing him STAT. As far as test taking strategies are concerned I have tried them all ever since the SAT year. As far as compensating in acceptable ways, I don't understand. Thus far, I've been getting high marks in my rotation evaluations from attendings and residents (which is a big chunk of our grade). However, these standardized exams are what is killing me and for the neuropsychologist to suggest that I quit med school knowing all this is very depressing.

 

[WellWornLad]

How did you make it through the first 2 years of med school only to have problems now? Do you feel like this latest failure was a one-off event (anyone, LD or not, can fail a test in med school), or do you have some perspective on what is different now from the past two years?

As far as debt, I'd ask your school about disability insurance. I believe that that all medical schools are required to provide coverage for students up to $200K (raised recently from $160K) to pay for loans in the event of disability. I'd think that your condition may qualify if you're truly forced to leave, but what do I know. If I were in your shoes, that would be among the first things I check out, however.

 

[Nanecci]

Thanks WellWorn...I just received the results today and have to send them to the ADA. I will most certainly address the Disability aid! Thanks for the tip! 👍

 

[njbmd]

I am a 3rd year medical student who has struggled through medical school secondary to standardized exams. In high school I graduated with honors and in college (Tulane) I graduated Magna Cum Laude. Despite these academic successes I've performed poorly on every standardized exam from SATs to MCATs.

I am currently on probation at my medical school for failing a shelf exam. I recently took a battery of exams to address the discrepancy b/w my academic performances and my performance on standardized exams.

The tests demonstrated that, in fact, I have a LD called Nonverbal Learning Disability. While I was relieved to understand that I had a LD all along, I was surprised and very upset at the neuropsychologist's recommendations:

1. That I qualify for extended time in exams (that was cool)
2. THE PT'S DEFICITS WILL LIKELY HINDER HER ABILITY TO SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE MED SCHOOL AND THAT SHE SHOULD LOOK TO ALTERNATIVE VOCATIONAL CHOICES W/ A CAREER COUNSELOR. WTF!!!😕

She painted it as if it were so easy to move on from medical school after sacrificing 10 years of my life (I'm 30) for a career that I feel needed Dr.s w/ actual empathy (this has to do w/ horrible experiences I've experienced by Dr. at my poor father's expense, who recently passed). Not only that, I'm already 200 grand in the hole and have no way of paying it back should I leave (I'm not rich).

I just want to know if I am doomed as she says, if there are others that share similar problems, if I should get a second opinion, etc...

I am very distraught...

First of all, you have a diagnosis, now get busy and find a program that will give you the tools that you need to get your medical school work done within your diagnosis. There are programs out there that assist professional students who have your type of problem (Bowman Gray has a program). Rather than being distraught, do some problem-solving and get what you need. That last statement was one person's opinion and you seem to have allowed it to stick to you like glue. That person used the word "likely" not the words "for sure" so do something "unlikely" and get yourself beyond this. Others have completed medical school with hundreds of different kinds of learning disabilities.

 

[confuse]

Nanecci,
It doesn't matter what the psychologist thinks, it only matters what you think. Do you think you can complete med school? You should try to learn all that you can about your diagnosis and ways to work around it. I think you should also do a self assessment as to why you're not doing well on these exams. The psychologist is there to help you understand yourself so if you also on your own try to gain a better understanding of yourself, you're already 1 step ahead.

 

[rachmoninov3]

To the OP:

In my experience, many neuropsychologists can give you a diagnosis, but they don't know how to treat. That happened to me in high school after successful surgical treatment for temporal lobe epilepsy. I was told I'd never excell in math or science and to not even try. Luckilly I'm extremely stubborn, and did what I always do when someone tells me I can't: I work harder, and eventually I found a way.

Now not knowing what this diagnosis they gave you is, or what study methods you have tried, please take my reccomendations with a gain a salt:

Usually not doing well on multiple choice tests comes from: A) not knowing the material well enough. B) Going too fast and not fully reading the questions. C) Over thinking.
So review the material more until you have a firmer grip on it. You've gotten through most of medical school, so I presume you know how to study. Also, read the question stem a few times until you are certain you know what they are asking (I still have problems with this). As for overthinking, usually if you overthink something it's not an answer.

Finally, while extra time may sound like a great thing, when I was actually taking the accomodations granted by the ADA and having extra time on exams, I found that in fact it hindered me because I believed the neuropsych people that it would help, and I didn't study hard enough. Extra time became a crutch rather than something that helped me.

Best of luck, and don't believe too much of what some high and mighty neuropsych d-bags say.

 

[Nanecci]

First of all, you have a diagnosis, now get busy and find a program that will give you the tools that you need to get your medical school work done within your diagnosis. There are programs out there that assist professional students who have your type of problem (Bowman Gray has a program). Rather than being distraught, do some problem-solving and get what you need. That last statement was one person's opinion and you seem to have allowed it to stick to you like glue. That person used the word "likely" not the words "for sure" so do something "unlikely" and get yourself beyond this. Others have completed medical school with hundreds of different kinds of learning disabilities.

😕

 

[Nanecci]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So I'm currently in my psych rotation (which is what I want to do) and spoke to my attending about the LD report. She said that I am subpar to the previous med students that have rotated (she moved her from Cali recently and has seen only 5) and said I shouldn't go into psych b/c I lack concentration, have to have things repeated, am "slow" (HELLO....that is why I got evaluated for an LD), and b/c (this is my favorite) I am too...friendly or so with the pts (I'm a very jovial person - not now obviously - and like to smile. And most of these pts have been though so much it breaks my heart and I feel they need a little smile..so sue me). She suggested that I speak with the clerkship director so I went to his office but he wasn't there. However, another high ranking faculty member in psychiatry was there. He said that my chances were "slim" of succeeding in med school and tried to convince me to seek other vocations like social work😱
I have nothing against social workers, they do work hard, but I have busted my butt for 10 years, graduated magna cum laude at Tulane and have shelled in too much $$$ for this. I'm starting to wonder (no, it's not a delusion 😉) that the school is trying to get rid of me bc it feels I am some kind of liability (long story).
Bottom line...I've told 2 psychiatrists about my LD and they basically said I should find another career! They didn't even pay attn to the part that I may have ADHD, for which adderall is prescribed to improve the aforementioned problems.

B/c of this I have looked into and emailed 3 law firms this evening that practice educational law to look into this...


.

 

[Nanecci]

I usually just work harder at stuff when it gets hard. I do not just quit and cry. I use my determination and non-laziness and work, work my tail off! Sounds like you could /should do the same since you do not want to leave I am assuming??

Well Spinal Tap, good for you! You are right...I'm lazy, have no determination and don't work my tail off....
You're insensitive reply is the same thing I hear people tell people with major depression to "just get over it."
I do work hard - HARDER than others to make up for it...but your right...I must be lazy b/c i read slow and have problems filling in bubbles...
I really hope you do not become one of those insensitive docs that actually INSPIRED me to go into medicine....

 

[Nanecci]

I do not remember saying you were anything. Did you read my post or make stuff up. I merely gave advice of which I do when things get hard. I talked only of myself never mentioning anyone. Anyone can either take my advice that I gave and improve their lives or not take it and stay how they are. But it is pretty clear that I am not the one needing help. Please grow up!

Uh, my dear, I didn't make anything up...you must have problems reading your own quotes! Besides do you really think that "advice" is really new? or helpful?? All you said was not to be lazy...you probably have been blessed with test taking skills that are legendary....
And by the way....I'm much more mature than you in spades...don't go there, really don't go there... I wanted you to see how your comment in this thread is not helpful and immature.

"If you don't have anything good to say...don't say it"

 

[ZagDoc]

Just making sure I understand this correctly... a neuropsychologist is telling you that you don't have the skills necessary to be a physician, after you've successfully gotten through the years where the gross majority of standardized testing occurs?

Sounds like the orange is trying to tell the apple that is has a worm. I agree you should seek a second opinion, preferably from an MD who specializes in these things (not an attending who is currently evaluating you) who knows what it means that you've come as far as you have, that you score well on clinical evals, and knows how much time and energy you've invested up to this point. I say that not from an elitist point of view, but yeah, you can't really understand the point you are at or how far you've come unless you've done it yourself.

 

[iambic]

I would ignore the neuropsych's recommendations. After all it is just one person's professional opinion, if even that. It seems as though your neuropsych was overstepping his/her boundaries. While he/she can provide a diagnosis and offer some insight into your NLD, going as far as to suggesting an alternative career path is somewhat inappropriate. A NLD diagnosis is not the end of the world and there are plenty of people like you who have gone on to become successful in what they do.

If you are a third year I am not sure why they would doubt your ability to complete the rest of the program unless there is other compelling evidence that was taken during your intake that might suggest otherwise. Obviously we don't have the full story so it is hard to really know whether all these people discounting you have any merit. However, now that you qualify for extended time you may be able to perform better on exams. You do seem to have taken what the neuropsych and the two psychiatrists said to heart. I would worry less about what these people say. If you have emotional regulation issues judging from the tone of your posts however then psychiatry might not be the best specialty for you. Your jovial personality might suit pediatrics better.

 

[Bonesaw45]

OP,

Don't worry too much, you're a 3rd year so clearly you passed the boards. The test that I as a first year hear is "the worst test of your life". You have for the most part gotten through the hardest part of school, again what I heard second and third hand. But what you need to realize most is that even if they think you would be a subpar doc (which is how I'm feeling today after doing my first physical so I'm feeling you) you still will benefit financially from completeing medical school and getting your MD. You will get paid more at the entry level than many other people and likely end up making a higher salary at cap. So their beliefs be damned, if you've gotten this far you are more than capable of completing it seeing as how 4th year is less stress and you have 1.5 years left. Complete school, try to match and if you can't at least you tried. Don't worry about being 200K in the hole because in the end you'll have the means to make it up just as well if not better than if you were a practicing physician.

Good Luck : )

 

[coldweatherblue]

If you've taken/passed Step 1, you've probably already gotten past the most academically rigorous part of med school. If a LD would prevent you from becoming an MD I would expect the pre-clinical years and Step 1 to be the crux of the problem. Now that you've passed that point you should be able to pass the remaining exams if you use the system that's worked in the past.

x2 on the peds recommendation...

 

[WellWornLad]

I usually just work harder at stuff when it gets hard. I do not just quit and cry. I use my determination and non-laziness and work, work my tail off! Sounds like you could /should do the same since you do not want to leave I am assuming??

By saying that you "do not just quit and cry," you are implying that that is what the OP is doing - about a 7-8 on the obnoxious scale. I also agree that "work harder" is fairly trite advice. Everyone on this forum is working as hard as they can, or at least understands the relationship between work and results. The OP's problem is a little deeper than that, don't you think?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So I'm currently in my psych rotation (which is what I want to do) and spoke to my attending about the LD report. She said that I am subpar to the previous med students that have rotated...Bottom line...I've told 2 psychiatrists about my LD and they basically said I should find another career! They didn't even pay attn to the part that I may have ADHD, for which adderall is prescribed to improve the aforementioned problems..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

.You should have asked for an assessment before bringing up the LD diagnosis. That sort of thing tends to color any evaluation.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

B/c of this I have looked into and emailed 3 law firms this evening that practice educational law to look into this...

.Are you being forced out by your school?

 

[WellWornLad]

I actually implied nothing about the OP. I said what I do. If the OP interpreted it that way, which indicates a truth then thats his problem.

More to the point, you said what you don't do. There are many things you undoubtedly don't do when faced with hardship (e.g., ride a unicycle, go spelunking, get drunk). To choose one or two examples from the infinite list of things you don't do implies that such an example is relevant to the OP. If there were no implied association, it would make as much sense as bringing up the fact that you don't unicycle in response to difficultly.

The whole point of language is to communicate ideas. If you have no care over how your language is interpreted by others, it is most definitely going to be your problem.

 

[typeB-md]

The "I don't do well on standardized tests" argument is bunk. What it really means is that your achievements are moreso the result of hardwork rather than gifted intelligence. Being able to perform tasks and memorize is different than applying knowledge in a given amount of time; hence, the discrepancy between your grades and test scores.

Also, I'm fairly sure we all know what type of medical student you are. You're the one whose ego is only superceded by her heart. If social work had paid better and had more prestige, you'd be there in a flash. I bet none of your classmates have the same amount of empathy that you have 🙄

Whatever specialty you go into, though, please do everyone a favor and stay out of academics or politics. For whatever reason, personality types like yourself seem disproportionately drawn to positions of "leadership" where you can (mis)mold future generations of thinkers.

EDIT: I don't think I made it clear, though, that you'll be fine to graduate medical school. Don't listen to some quack neuropsych idiot. Medical school is much more about hardwork than innate intelligence or standardized test performance. This really shouldnt' have to be explained to you, though. You got into medical school despite this "disability," so don't go all "woe is me" trying to get pity. How much of a disability can it be if you graduated with honors from undergrad. Welcome to the big league where the best becomes the average. Work hard, whine less and you'll be fine just as you were in your previous academic years.

 

[alwaysaangel]

While I think you need a second opinion you also need to consider that standardized tests are a way of life for physicians. You will have them constantly throughout your career. If they are a problem for you then its not going away after medical school/residency.

 

[WellWornLad]

Sorry I do not engage in arguments with children.

You're just telling us more of what you don't do, right? I suppose I can assume this has no implied or real association with anything or anyone we're discussing.

Here's one more thing you don't do: apologize for snarky, unconstructive comments.

 

[sirus_virus]

The only thing I picked up fro this thread is that OP is not the only one with serious issues. Medicine sure does attract some weirdos.

 

[coldweatherblue]

The only thing I picked up fro this thread is that OP is not the only one with serious issues. Medicine sure does attract some weirdos.

x2. cracks me up but it's a bit scary..

 

[45408]

The "I don't do well on standardized tests" argument is bunk. What it really means is that your achievements are moreso the result of hardwork rather than gifted intelligence. Being able to perform tasks and memorize is different than applying knowledge in a given amount of time; hence, the discrepancy between your grades and test scores.

Also, I'm fairly sure we all know what type of medical student you are. You're the one whose ego is only superceded by her heart. If social work had paid better and had more prestige, you'd be there in a flash. I bet none of your classmates have the same amount of empathy that you have 🙄

Whatever specialty you go into, though, please do everyone a favor and stay out of academics or politics. For whatever reason, personality types like yourself seem disproportionately drawn to positions of "leadership" where you can (mis)mold future generations of thinkers.

EDIT: I don't think I made it clear, though, that you'll be fine to graduate medical school. Don't listen to some quack neuropsych idiot. Medical school is much more about hardwork than innate intelligence or standardized test performance. This really shouldnt' have to be explained to you, though. You got into medical school despite this "disability," so don't go all "woe is me" trying to get pity. How much of a disability can it be if you graduated with honors from undergrad. Welcome to the big league where the best becomes the average. Work hard, whine less and you'll be fine just as you were in your previous academic years.

figured you'd wait a year before you came back from retirement, huh?

 

[Blues003]

Go for it. Work your ass off. You already did what was the hardest. Just keep at it.

Think about it. In the future, when you get to have a wife and kids, you can look into the past and say "I managed, I did that. And now, I am saving people." There's nothing better than that.

 

[eforest]

The workplace is a difficult place for those with non verbal learning disability. The hallmarks include inability to see the big picture (getting caught on tiny details), misreading people (much of communication is nonverbal), and attentional problems. These people also have trouble with transitions from one setting to another.

This makes the clinical years difficult as you need to see the big picture, focus is important, good communication is important, and you're constantly asked to switch settings and then perform well.

To help with some of these things you could-
1. Get detailed information on your rotations before doing them. With this learning disabilty, you may have trouble picking things up that others pick up automatically. And unfamiliar environments may be difficult. So ask classmates about everything before a particular rotation including the layout of the hospital (those with NVLD get lost easily), the computer systems, the layout of the day... Take a tour of the ward before actually starting so you don't get lost.

2.Elicit feedback from those around you; those with NVLD may miss cues, social signals-- have others be explicit

3. Try to get the big picture. The patient threw up at 1:05, again at 1:10, then ate three pieces of chicken and four pees, then threw up right afterwards. The patient drank three sips of ginger ale and threw up again... He had a bowel movement at exactly 2:01, he had another at 2:15.... Those are the details- what's the big picture? That the patient has vomiting and diarrhea and isn't tolerating fluids. What does this mean? Gastroenteritis is on the differential.

Hope this helps

 

[Nanecci]

Haha, Type B...Don't worry, love, I will NOT go into academics or WORSE politics, lol - I want to help people, not screw them up, lol

I actually like the comment about my ego being superceded by my heart. I wasn't offended - I understood your point. However, it's too late and too $$$ for me not to try and finish...As many have said on this thread I've come too far to quit.

I admit I am thankful for my stubbornness...I'm not really upset (OK, I'm LESS upset, lol), but rather determined to do my best - GRADUATE - and get my diploma with my middle finger in the air, lol (I'm joking on this last bit for anyone who cannot read the sarcasm - for clarification)

 

[Nanecci]

x2. cracks me up but it's a bit scary..

The workplace is a difficult place for those with non verbal learning disability. The hallmarks include inability to see the big picture (getting caught on tiny details), misreading people (much of communication is nonverbal), and attentional problems. These people also have trouble with transitions from one setting to another.

This makes the clinical years difficult as you need to see the big picture, focus is important, good communication is important, and you're constantly asked to switch settings and then perform well.

To help with some of these things you could-
1. Get detailed information on your rotations before doing them. With this learning disabilty, you may have trouble picking things up that others pick up automatically. And unfamiliar environments may be difficult. So ask classmates about everything before a particular rotation including the layout of the hospital (those with NVLD get lost easily), the computer systems, the layout of the day... Take a tour of the ward before actually starting so you don't get lost.

2.Elicit feedback from those around you; those with NVLD may miss cues, social signals-- have others be explicit

3. Try to get the big picture. The patient threw up at 1:05, again at 1:10, then ate three pieces of chicken and four pees, then threw up right afterwards. The patient drank three sips of ginger ale and threw up again... He had a bowel movement at exactly 2:01, he had another at 2:15.... Those are the details- what's the big picture? That the patient has vomiting and diarrhea and isn't tolerating fluids. What does this mean? Gastroenteritis is on the differential.

Hope this helps

I understand and agree..mind you, I didn't know what my problem was, noe that such a thing existed, until I got tested literally 2 wks ago and received the report a few d ago. By the way, I don't have a prob with SOAP notes, 😉. Ironically enough surgery was the easiest rotation wrt evals and such (Shelf was postponed bc the school wanted me to get checked for any underlying LD, which...SURPRISE!...I have - there must be some sort of accolade for oldest person discovered to have an LD, lol. And I really am considering getting a 2nd opinion on that test. For one, I do have a learning type - visual (I know that b/c that's how I retain things and, well b/c I know me!). Also, which made me sorta laugh at the report...I'm a social butterfly and reading people has always been my forte'...Though it true that I pick things up slower than others (esp when insructions are given verbally) and that attn/concentration is a prob...however, i started on adderall this week and will see how things go...

Wish me luck folks...ya'll have been incredibly supportive...I feel relief in knowing that a wave of compassionate, non-judgmental (most of ya'll anyway, lol) doctors are slowly replacing the ones who never should have been...

Thanks from the heart...😍