not enough vacation time?

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fecalith

fecalith

Trini tuh de bone 🇹🇹
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Are 15 days of vacation ( 2 weeks) and 5 personal/sick days adequate during residency?
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It is the same amount of days throughout the 4 years of residency. Also, I interviewed at 21 programs and the one I matched (rank #4) was the only one that didn't have 3-4 weeks vacation time, hence the reason I feel some kind of way. I guess I would have to suck it up since I really like this program overall.
 
CGM said:
It is the same amount of days throughout the 4 years of residency. Also, I interviewed at 21 programs and the one I matched (rank #4) was the only one that didn't have 3-4 weeks vacation time, hence the reason I feel some kind of way. I guess I would have to suck it up since I really like this program overall.
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15 days is generally considered 3 wks. A lot of programs will get you a weekend on either end of that
 
CGM said:
Are 15 days of vacation and 5 personal/sick days adequate during residency? I feel like I am getting the short stick at this program :/
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4 weeks of vacation/pto is pretty decent... can’t really have more than a month off each year or else it may extend your training per ACGME guidelines...at least for IM and IM sub specialties...even if you get more than 1 month of vacation/pto/sick days.
 
Ok, I said all the other 20 programs I interviewed at had 4 weeks vacation, if the majority had 2 weeks or similar days I would have never questioned it... Did i actually complain about the residency as a whole? I just wanted to see what is the general consensus out there.
Thank you.
 
CGM said:
Ok, I said all the other 20 programs I interviewed at had 4 weeks vacation, if the majority had 2 weeks or similar days I would have never questioned it... Did i actually complain about the residency as a whole? I just wanted to see what is the general consensus out there.
Thank you.
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I agree, everything is always relative. I'd be a bit bummed if I matched to a program that paid less than all the others, or had less vacation than all the others.

What specialty was this for? 4 weeks just sounds unusual to me.

I am guessing those 4 weeks vacation included sick time? As mentioned above, ACGME guidelines only let you miss so many days per year regardless of reason (sick, bereavement, vacation, maternity/paternity, etc.) before you have to make it all up. I don't know if that number is 4 weeks or one month.
 
RangerBob said:
I agree, everything is always relative. I'd be a bit bummed if I matched to a program that paid less than all the others, or had less vacation than all the others.

What specialty was this for? 4 weeks just sounds unusual to me.

I am guessing those 4 weeks vacation included sick time? As mentioned above, ACGME guidelines only let you miss so many days per year regardless of reason (sick, bereavement, vacation, maternity/paternity, etc.) before you have to make it all up. I don't know if that number is 4 weeks or one month.
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This is for AP/CP residency.
Indeed most of them included some educational leave within those 4 weeks but not all.

An example from one of the programs I interviewed at: 'You are eligible for the equivalent of four work weeks with pay. Vacation and/or educational leave must be scheduled by mutual agreement with your program director or designee' 'House staff may take up to five sick days per year at the discretion of their program director. Sick days are not subtracted from vacation time'

I could quote the other 19 to make a point but the picture was similar. It was either 20 days or 4 week wording most of the time in the benefit packages.
 
CGM said:
This is for AP/CP residency.
Indeed most of them included some educational leave within those 4 weeks but not all.

An example from one of the programs I interviewed at: 'You are eligible for the equivalent of four work weeks with pay. Vacation and/or educational leave must be scheduled by mutual agreement with your program director or designee' 'House staff may take up to five sick days per year at the discretion of their program director. Sick days are not subtracted from vacation time'

I could quote the other 19 to make a point but the picture was similar. It was either 20 days or 4 week wording most of the time in the benefit packages.
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Sounds nice. Maybe 4 weeks is standard in psych, but I don’t think it is for most fields. So you could be getting the short stick for your own specialty

However, psych programs are typically much more cush than most other specialties. At my institution psych and PM&R (my specialty) were the ones who regularly worked around 50hrs or less a week after PGY2. Personally, I felt 3 weeks was plenty with my hours.
 
CGM said:
This is for AP/CP residency.
Indeed most of them included some educational leave within those 4 weeks but not all.

An example from one of the programs I interviewed at: 'You are eligible for the equivalent of four work weeks with pay. Vacation and/or educational leave must be scheduled by mutual agreement with your program director or designee' 'House staff may take up to five sick days per year at the discretion of their program director. Sick days are not subtracted from vacation time'

I could quote the other 19 to make a point but the picture was similar. It was either 20 days or 4 week wording most of the time in the benefit packages.
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4 weeks and 20 days are the same since a week is generally 5 business days.
 
rokshana said:
4 weeks and 20 days are the same since a week is generally 5 business days.
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I was thinking more of 2 weeks when i kept reading the 15 days on my programs benefits list. Then i realize it is probably 15 working days so indeed that makes it 3 weeks. But then again when the chief resident asked me to pick up my preferred vacation period, he specified to choose two weeks of any 4 week block. We shall see. 5 days more or less shouldn't be a huge deference.
 
RangerBob said:
Sounds nice. Maybe 4 weeks is standard in psych, but I don’t think it is for most fields. So you could be getting the short stick for your own specialty

However, psych programs are typically much more cush than most other specialties. At my institution psych and PM&R (my specialty) were the ones who regularly worked around 50hrs or less a week after PGY2. Personally, I felt 3 weeks was plenty with my hours.
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I am in Pathology. Maybe it is similar.
 
CGM said:
Are 15 days of vacation and 5 personal/sick days adequate during residency? I feel like I am getting the short stick at this program :/
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It depends on how they allow personal days. If you can use them for routine stuff (take a day off to do errands, doctors appointments, whatever you want), then that's the equivalent of 4 weeks of vacation - among the maximum any program will give.

If they don't allow it used routinely, that's 3 weeks of vacation and a week of sick leave - probably around average.

Some programs go as low as 2 weeks, which is the minimum I've heard of (and I think the minimum allowed - but don't quote me on that).
 
My gen surg program was 2 weeks a year for the junior years, and 3 weeks a year at the senior years. We had to use vacation time for fellowship interviews which is why the extra week was given. We also got an unofficial 5 days off at either Xmas or New Years that didn't count as any of our vacation time. So I guess you could say we got 3 weeks as juniors and 4 as seniors/chiefs.

It varies widely by program. I know of surgery programs that give 4, but at the PGY1+/-2 level, it was just a solid month off that they picked for you.

But anywhere 2-4 is in the normal range.
 
LucidSplash said:
My gen surg program was 2 weeks a year for the junior years, and 3 weeks a year at the senior years. We had to use vacation time for fellowship interviews which is why the extra week was given. We also got an unofficial 5 days off at either Xmas or New Years that didn't count as any of our vacation time. So I guess you could say we got 3 weeks as juniors and 4 as seniors/chiefs.

It varies widely by program. I know of surgery programs that give 4, but at the PGY1+/-2 level, it was just a solid month off that they picked for you.

But anywhere 2-4 is in the normal range.
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My surgery program was 4 weeks/year, max one week off in a row except for your wedding ( 2 weeks) or maternity (4 weeks max, but you got no time off the rest of the year). Did not change based on PGY year.
No personal or sick days given. Fellowship interviews used vacation days.
More than 4 weeks off a year made you board ineligible. They now have a few modest extensions for certain circumstances.
 
Smurfette said:
My surgery program was 4 weeks/year, max one week off in a row except for your wedding ( 2 weeks) or maternity (4 weeks max, but you got no time off the rest of the year). Did not change based on PGY year.
No personal or sick days given. Fellowship interviews used vacation days.
More than 4 weeks off a year made you board ineligible. They now have a few modest extensions for certain circumstances.
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My program had a mandatory research year. But it wasn’t a straight year out. We did research rotations in years 2-4, 4 months each year. So our chiefs were all PGY6. So if someone was preggers, they rearranged to be on research block rotations at the appropriate time. Still wasn’t easy, but easier than getting a 4 week maternity leave.

No personal or sick days, but we kinda just made that work on our individual teams. If someone was really sick, they stayed home and their team mates just covered for them. Intern year I had some kind of terrible URI and my chief/senior sent me to the doctor and then home for a couple days. Mostly because I think they were afraid of catching it lol. I had the flu my Chief year but fortunately was on a community general surgery rotation where there wasn’t really a “service” so I wasn’t missed. Also had to have a kidney bx my chief year and had to have a precautionary overnight stay in the hospital afterwards. Just talked to my PD about it and there wasn’t a problem.

Was fortunate to train at a place where the mantra was to support one another and camaraderie was such that people didn’t take advantage.
 
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LucidSplash said:
My gen surg program was 2 weeks a year for the junior years, and 3 weeks a year at the senior years. We had to use vacation time for fellowship interviews which is why the extra week was given. We also got an unofficial 5 days off at either Xmas or New Years that didn't count as any of our vacation time. So I guess you could say we got 3 weeks as juniors and 4 as seniors/chiefs.

It varies widely by program. I know of surgery programs that give 4, but at the PGY1+/-2 level, it was just a solid month off that they picked for you.

But anywhere 2-4 is in the normal range.
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That's what our program did as well.
 
15 days = 3 weeks. It's all about work days. I'd ask my chief about that if they asked me for 2 weeks because that's inaccurate.

I know you're path, but on the psych side, we often get the most spoiled. It's common for programs to allow for 20 days vacay, 3 - 6 personal days, and anywhere from 5 - 15 sick days.
 
Mass Effect said:
15 days = 3 weeks. It's all about work days. I'd ask my chief about that if they asked me for 2 weeks because that's inaccurate.

I know you're path, but on the psych side, we often get the most spoiled. It's common for programs to allow for 20 days vacay, 3 - 6 personal days, and anywhere from 5 - 15 sick days.
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And you can use all that time and be board eligible?
 
Your chief might be asking you to pick a 2 week block because it might be 2 weeks + 1 week that they give you where ever it fits. Some programs force residents to take vacation as 2w + 1w. My program gives us 3 weeks but only asked us what TWO months I'd want vacation in
 
NVO said:
Your chief might be asking you to pick a 2 week block because it might be 2 weeks + 1 week that they give you where ever it fits. Some programs force residents to take vacation as 2w + 1w. My program gives us 3 weeks but only asked us what TWO months I'd want vacation in
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I read the email from the chief again and it seems like even though GME states 15 vacation days that translates to 2 weeks a year. Makes no sense to me but what can I do...
 
rokshana said:
And you can use all that time and be board eligible?
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Psychiatry requirements are actually super flexible. They practically add up to 36 months of a 48 month residency - the fourth year is basically all electives, and they can be fairly flexible with time off due to that.
 
In my specialty, 2 weeks is on the low side. Most programs I interviewed at were 3, some 4 weeks even, with sick days on top of that. I really hope for your sake its 3 weeks.
 
I just found out that I'm not going to make a single Christmas with my family for the next 5 years based on my program's holiday scheduling, so I'm a little bummed. At least we get a decent amount of vacation, but it still hurts. Christmas is the only time my immediate family gets together, making this even more difficult. Oh wells. Sacrifices, I suppose.
 
CGM said:
I read the email from the chief again and it seems like even though GME states 15 vacation days that translates to 2 weeks a year. Makes no sense to me but what can I do...
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Your chief is mistaken. Ask your PD for clarification on whether you get 10 days off or 15 days off for vacation.

If they meant 2 weeks they would have said 10 days.

15 days = 3 weeks.



My surgical intern year had special months where you couldn't use vacation (probably 6 out of 12 months), and the other ones were on a seniority schedule (if PGY-2/3 were off, you couldn't be off)

I had to use one week of vacation to move cross country as I was apparently supposed to finish intern year June 30th and start my next residency July 1st.

I had to use another week of vacation to figure out where I wanted to live for my follow-up residency. But we did get either Christmas or NYE during a 'holiday' schedule that didn't require vacation, so it could've been worse.
 
augeremt said:
I just found out that I'm not going to make a single Christmas with my family for the next 5 years based on my program's holiday scheduling, so I'm a little bummed. At least we get a decent amount of vacation, but it still hurts. Christmas is the only time my immediate family gets together, making this even more difficult. Oh wells. Sacrifices, I suppose.
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How can that be? Intern year? Sure. PGY 2? Okay. But all 5 years they expect you to work Christmas?
 
Mass Effect said:
How can that be? Intern year? Sure. PGY 2? Okay. But all 5 years they expect you to work Christmas?
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Unless every single resident works every single Christmas, this sounds quite impossible.

My wife's program (Ob/Gyn), they're guaranteed one of the major holidays off each year - Thanksgiving/Christmas/NYE. My program (IM) wasn't quite that explicit, but it usually worked out that way unless you had a particularly rough set of rotations during the winter - and that might happen one year but certainly not all three.
 
Raryn said:
Unless every single resident works every single Christmas, this sounds quite impossible.

My wife's program (Ob/Gyn), they're guaranteed one of the major holidays off each year - Thanksgiving/Christmas/NYE. My program (IM) wasn't quite that explicit, but it usually worked out that way unless you had a particularly rough set of rotations during the winter - and that might happen one year but certainly not all three.
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It might be that their program isn't anywhere near family. I interviewed at a lot of programs that will guarantee one of the major holidays off (the day itself off), which isn't nearly enough time to travel if I'm working the day before and after.
 
Mass Effect said:
How can that be? Intern year? Sure. PGY 2? Okay. But all 5 years they expect you to work Christmas?
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Raryn said:
Unless every single resident works every single Christmas, this sounds quite impossible.

My wife's program (Ob/Gyn), they're guaranteed one of the major holidays off each year - Thanksgiving/Christmas/NYE. My program (IM) wasn't quite that explicit, but it usually worked out that way unless you had a particularly rough set of rotations during the winter - and that might happen one year but certainly not all three.
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You either get off Christmas Day or New Year’s Day, but have to work the day before and after. My family lives more than a few hours of travel away so not possible to see them with only that one day off and making it back to work on time.

And this is for all years. Seniority doesn’t really help. It blows.
 
NVO said:
It might be that their program isn't anywhere near family. I interviewed at a lot of programs that will guarantee one of the major holidays off (the day itself off), which isn't nearly enough time to travel if I'm working the day before and after.
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Beat me to it. Exactly that. In a way, I’m glad to hear my program isn’t the only one that does that. I expected to miss a holiday here and there, but not every Christmas for my entire residency. Seems rather cruel.
 
Raryn said:
Unless every single resident works every single Christmas, this sounds quite impossible.

My wife's program (Ob/Gyn), they're guaranteed one of the major holidays off each year - Thanksgiving/Christmas/NYE. My program (IM) wasn't quite that explicit, but it usually worked out that way unless you had a particularly rough set of rotations during the winter - and that might happen one year but certainly not all three.
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So where I did residency, half the residents worked a week that included Christmas and the other half worked NYD...so had a week off above whatever vacation/pto.

The way they decided who got what week of was as follows

The house staff office posted 2 sheets of paper on the office door...one for interns, the other for residents. It had listed sign up spots for Christmas and New Years.

The house staff office then sent a page out to every intern and resident that the Sign list was up ...

Chaos then ensued as every single intern and resident dropped everything they were doing and ran to the house staff office to be the first to sign up...cuz it was first come first serve...

All three years...it’s the only time I ran...🙂
 
CGM said:
It is the same amount of days throughout the 4 years of residency. Also, I interviewed at 21 programs and the one I matched (rank #4) was the only one that didn't have 3-4 weeks vacation time, hence the reason I feel some kind of way. I guess I would have to suck it up since I really like this program overall.
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15 days of vacation is 3 weeks man...
 
Dave1980 said:
You are kind of all over the place. Every couple days you lose another week of vacation lol?
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Did you read my posts? Chief resident asked me to pick a two week period. Website and benefits package was stating 15 vacation days. After asking the Program coordinator and the same Chief, they both stated it is 2 weeks that we get. So i guess weekends are included in the vacation days.
I never once stated I had more than 2 weeks.
 
rokshana said:
Ouch! I have to admit, I ranked a place lower on my list because they only gave 2 weeks...
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Honestly, when I was ranking places I didn't really think of vacation. Especially, since the majority had 4 weeks and some 3 weeks for first year and 4 weeks for PGY-2,3,4. That's why i ranked this program 4th out of 21 Programs. I am very happy with my match overall.
 
Gotcha...that makes sense.

There is nothing you can do but suck it up unfortunately. During residency we had extra call shifts loaded onto us and we were pissed but ultimately just had to suck it up.

Is this a surgical residency?
 
CGM said:
Honestly, when I was ranking places I didn't really think of vacation. Especially, since the majority had 4 weeks and some 3 weeks for first year and 4 weeks for PGY-2,3,4. That's why i ranked this program 4th out of 21 Programs. I am very happy with my match overall.
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That's seriously messed up. I'd be tempted to put in for vacation from Monday - Friday and tell them you'll be back on Friday night so don't count Saturday and Sunday.
 
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