NY Psychiatry programs

[iqureshi7]

Hi,

I was wondering if someone could help me "rank" the various NY programs. I am more interested in clinical practice than academia. I am aware Columbia, Cornell, and Mt. Sinai are on the top. I'm more interested in hearing about programs besides there. I have read scutwork.com. Woudl appreciate any input. Thanks alot in advance!


Just to refresh the memory:

Albany Medical Center Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Bronx-Lebanon Hospital Center Program
Lincoln Medical and Mental Health Center Program
Brookdale University Hospital and Medical Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
University at Buffalo Program
Nassau University Medical Center Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine (Elmhurst) Program
NSLIJHS-Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Long Island Jewish Medical Center Program**** HILLSIDE
Jamaica Hospital Medical Center Program
NSLIJHS-North Shore University Hospital/NYU School of Medicine Program
Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Beth Israel Medical Center Program
Harlem Hospital Center Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine (Cabrini) Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine (North General) Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program
New York Medical College (Metropolitan) Program
New York Medical College at St Vincent's Hospital and Medical Center of New York Program
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus)/
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Cornell Campus) Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
Creedmoor Psychiatric Center Program
University of Rochester Program
New York Medical College (Richmond) Program
SUNY at Stony Brook Program
SUNY Upstate Medical University Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program

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[worriedwell]

as someone with an admitted bias (and I realize I'm not answering your question), I would submit to you that in fact "on the top" of your list for clinical education by volume and diversity (but maybe not by the number of hours of psychodynamic supervision, if you are into that sort of thing) would be far and away NYU/Bellevue.

And its a huge program, so look into it. It is, however, a highly competitive residency in that it is coveted among many applicants.

 

[whopper]

I doubt you'll get answers to all your questions. Most of us have little experience with any of the programs you mentioned.

Here's what I know: Maimonides (from 2nd hand knowledge): limited patient population-mostly illegal immigrants and European Jews. The European Jews offer some rare but interesting cases because there are cultural specific issues and some rare genetically based disorders. They are tough on residents-all nighter calls and attendings that pimp residents and medstudents.

SUNY at Stony Brook Program: (from 2nd hand knowledge and an interview): extremely diverse patient population-they service an entire county. Wide range of stuff, e.g. a floor devoted specifically to eating disorder patients-you'll rarely see stuff like that in most other programs. This program has an entire floor for them. Also big on research.

New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program: Don't know much about the program, but this area of NY is very very dead. Its funny because its right outside of NYC which is too busy for my tastes, but Westchester is too dead.

Mount Sinai School of Medicine (North General) Program: again, a limited patient population focused mostly on immigrants from the the West Indies and several urban patients.

From my take in general, most city programs have a limited patient exposure. E.g. you only see specific case types. For example, if you're in Newark--you'll see a lot of homeless, substance abuse, dual diagnosis stuff, but you rarely see eating disorders, mood disorder 2ndary to interpersonal conflict, psychiatric disorders seen in stable rural families etc. So if you want to go into a city program, see what they offer outside the city. You want to get a good diversity.

 

[sga430]

how is north general??

 

[whopper]

I interviewed there.

The only info I can tell is you from what I gathered from the interview.

The hospital is located in Harlem, and there's a strong African American cultural theme there. For example, a grand rounds held there was done by a prominent AA that was almost on the order of a gospel sermon. Not that this was bad.
Patient population is heavy with drug abusers & homeless. Racial profiles run the gamut, but the biggest block appeared to be African Americans, and plenty of people from the West Indies.
The psyche unit was physically smaller compared to most I've seen at other hospitals, but I don't have any numbers to compare. I don't remember the number of beds.
The program is IMG friendly--almost the entire program are IMGs. In fact, it has a reputation for being IMG friendly, so a lot of IMGs get real competitive in getting into this program. Some IMG candidates I saw there were so scared of not getting into a program, they were asking the residents for any edge they could get. They saw NG as their last hope of getting into a program. I had not seen this fear happen in other programs, even IMG friendly ones.

The call schedule there seemed horrendous. When I interviewed-they said first year they were on call Q3, did all nighter calls, and worked 6 days a week. In my own program, first year I was on call Q5-6, calls ended at 10pm and I worked 5 days a week (actually 3.5 because 1.5 days were in protected lecture time--we just sat and had open discussions).

The area didn't particularly seem like NYC's nicest. There was a Turkish bath house (with a big sign--MALES ONLY) just 2 blocks outside the hospital. However it didn't seem dangerous.

 

[foster]

First of all, apply broadly. If you're going into clinical practice and are interested in becomming a competent therapist, I'd suggest going to a program that has a good amount of psychotherapy supervision and less "volume and diversity" (i.e. a nice way of saying "we have lots of patients and you teach yourself"). Obviously you should always aim for the top, but if you're not interested in academia, theres no sense in going to a "big name" program if you know you're better suited for something else. Basically what Im trying to say is don't be seduced by the name of a program. Some of the most inept, socially awkward psychiatrists I've ever met/worked with trained at Harvard, Columbia, and NYU. Obviously that is not a blanket statemtent by any means, but just take it for what it's worth. If you get a chance to interview at any of the aformentioned places I'm almost certain you'll understand the point I'm attempting to get across here.

 

[sga430]

thanks for the info. i guess i got overexcited for it being in manhattan. sounds like an IMG sweatshop. with 33 interviews i am not worried about not getting in. however it will be tough choice between the 1 horse town friendly easy progs and the big apple sweatshops. i figure i should find somthing better than either.

 

[worriedwell]

Regarding foster's post, which clearly is in response to my comment about NYU and its volume and diversity, I would say the following...

The reason NYU is one of if not the best clinical program by reputation and by training in New york is because you see a large volume of very ill patients in the psych ER and on the inpatient unit during years one and two at Bellevue. You see higher economic status patients with slightly different illness spectrums at Lennox Hill and at Tisch. You also have access to the most heinous and high profile forensics cases as Bellevue has a prison and a court INSIDE it. Either way, years one and two, which in every program dedicates to seriously mentally ill, inpatient care, is diverse culturally, by disease spectrum (with an admitted high volume of very psychotic people), by various locations, and by educators.

Years 3 and 4 which are outpatient based, then provide significant supervision and outpatient psychotherapy and medication management. Again, this is high volume relatively speaking but not at the expense of supervision per se, but with the understanding that you have long days as an NYU resident.

My comment on supervision geared towards Columbia is that they have a TON of supervision, to the point that some of the residents that I spoke to when I interviewed there mentioned that they were sick of talking through the psychodynamics about each one of their patient's. Some may feel this large "volume" but not large "diversity" of supervision is what makes someone clinically competent but I don't agree.

I believe that seeing a lot of patients in diverse clinical settings, under well supervised settings, including psychopharm, psychodynamics, cbt, c/l, addictions, inpatient, and emergency room settings is what provides someone with strong clinical foundations.

With the exception of CBT (last time I checked), and I don't know a ton about their C/L service, NYU has exceptional exposure to all the other applications of clinical psychiatry. Most of its graduating residents go on to robust clinical practices in manhattan and do extremely well.

I have met some very awkward and crappy doctors who trained at every institution. Nobody is saying that you are guaranteed to be a great clinician if you go to Columbia, Harvard, or NYU. But lets not give the impression that these places, particularly NYU which I just spoke about, don't provide tremendous academic AND clinical environments for training in psychiatry.

 

[foster]

Yes, NYU, Columbia, and Harvard are the top of the top, without a doubt. But it is the opinion of some in the academic community that these aforementioned schools overwork their residents due to the high patient load to a point far beyond what is furthering their education. It is also RUMORED that residents at these programs are overly competitive with each other for attending's adoration, patient assignments, etc. It is also a fact that Bellevue will indeed expose residents to some cases that you simply will not see anywhere else. It is a phenomenal training facility indeed. I wasn't putting these programs down in any way. I was just trying to shed some light on the fact that (1) going to these schools does NOT make you a better shrink that someone from Stanford, Yale, Hopkins, etc. and (2) the fact of the matter is the reason why the NY schools are as competitive as they are has a lot to do with these "robust" (i.e. $300+/hr) Park Ave practices that many graduates find themselves in, and not so much with the criminally insane at Bellevue.


Again, this is not a dig at anyone or any program. I just don't agree with the deification of the NY residency programs. Believe it or not, you can practice psychiatry outside of Manhattan.

 

[worriedwell]

Touche. BTW, I left Manhattan for residency and I'm thrilled about it. Mostly for not wanting to only think in psychodynamic glasses, but also for personal reasons (and the long work hours at NYU did factor in, especially because, like you mentioned, I didn't feel I was giving up that much by not going there).

I took your post as a dig on "top notch residencies" but when you gave examples like Stanford and Hopkins, I realized it wasn't about your disdain for academic places, but rather for New York academic places (which certainly seem to be the most competitive to get into regardless of how they compare to non-New York places).

 

[JMD]

(and the long work hours at NYU did factor in, especially because, like you mentioned, I didn't feel I was giving up that much by not going there)

Can anyone comment on just how long "the long work hours" are at NYU? Are they pretty bad for all four years?

Sounds like you get great experience there, but I'm not sure it's worth killing myself both financially and work-wise to go there (if it worked out that way, of course) when I could get excellent training at a more resident-friendly program.

 

[billydoc]

I interviewed there.

The only info I can tell is you from what I gathered from the interview.

The hospital is located in Harlem, and there's a strong African American cultural theme there. For example, a grand rounds held there was done by a prominent AA that was almost on the order of a gospel sermon. Not that this was bad.
Patient population is heavy with drug abusers & homeless. Racial profiles run the gamut, but the biggest block appeared to be African Americans, and plenty of people from the West Indies.
The psyche unit was physically smaller compared to most I've seen at other hospitals, but I don't have any numbers to compare. I don't remember the number of beds.
The program is IMG friendly--almost the entire program are IMGs. In fact, it has a reputation for being IMG friendly, so a lot of IMGs get real competitive in getting into this program. Some IMG candidates I saw there were so scared of not getting into a program, they were asking the residents for any edge they could get. They saw NG as their last hope of getting into a program. I had not seen this fear happen in other programs, even IMG friendly ones.

The call schedule there seemed horrendous. When I interviewed-they said first year they were on call Q3, did all nighter calls, and worked 6 days a week. In my own program, first year I was on call Q5-6, calls ended at 10pm and I worked 5 days a week (actually 3.5 because 1.5 days were in protected lecture time--we just sat and had open discussions).

The area didn't particularly seem like NYC's nicest. There was a Turkish bath house (with a big sign--MALES ONLY) just 2 blocks outside the hospital. However it didn't seem dangerous.

Sorry, couldn't help but notice the IMG thing. Do you know if those were foreign nationals, on a working visa, or the U.S citizens IMGs from Caribbean, Israili, or European schools?

Thanks

 

[foster]

Touche. BTW, I left Manhattan for residency and I'm thrilled about it. Mostly for not wanting to only think in psychodynamic glasses, but also for personal reasons (and the long work hours at NYU did factor in, especially because, like you mentioned, I didn't feel I was giving up that much by not going there).

I took your post as a dig on "top notch residencies" but when you gave examples like Stanford and Hopkins, I realized it wasn't about your disdain for academic places, but rather for New York academic places (which certainly seem to be the most competitive to get into regardless of how they compare to non-New York places).

Definitely not a dig on academic places. From all I've read, pound for pound, Hopkins is still the place to beat for pretty much any graduate medical training, psych being no different. And I really like the program (at least on paper), maybe minus the 8 weeks of q3 call in the ICU. But yes, I personally just didnt mesh with the whole NYC psych vibe. But I agree they are definitely very competitive, largely because of their location and regional rep.

 

[PittBoo50]

Anybody with insight about the Cornell program? What are the program's particular strengths? How is the addictions psych training? Do the residents mingle much with the Columbia residency program? Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[zen76]

I did a sub-i at Columbia last year, one of the MD/PhD students at Columbia who was doing his psychiatry rotatopm on the same unit I was working on was married to a psych resident at Cornell. He liked Columbia and was staying there, and I think his wife did her med school there, but I forget. The long and the short was, Cornell did a lot of good research, not as broad or robust as Columbia. I can't speak to their addiction service, but after interviewing with a few people who have trained at Cornell, as well as what this MD/PhD student's better half thought, Cornell was the most "psychotherapy" oriented of all the NYC programs. You still get appropriate biological/psychopharm training, but the atmosphere was the most talk therapy, psychodynamically oriented program in the city. Only hearsay, I'm sure someone from Cornell could give you a better idea of the ins and outs. But definitely one of the top NYC programs, along with NYU, Columbia, and Mt. Sinai.

 

[tomato]

Zen's comments ring true with what I know. Psychotherapy seems to be something particularly emphasized at Cornell, consistent with its reputation. Although I understand they also have a number of experts in psychopharm and the classes are solid, so they don't skimp on pharm education. If research is your interest you could be better supported at Columbia given that they have the NYSPI, Lieberman and a lot of research funds. Cornell has a division in Westchester where they focus on personality disorders that is as far as I know not duplicated elsewhere. Addicitions is off site at a center downtown and a MMP attached to the hospital. Lots of dual diagnosis patients during PGY2 and thereafter. Not too much mingling with Columbia other than the occasional married couple as Zen mentioned.

 

[sga430]

actually no nite calls 1st and 4th year. however short calls 1st year is q3 which is not good either. so far one of the least busiest of the ny sweatshops which is not saying much. creedmoor may be less busy but it seems dull.

I interviewed there.

The only info I can tell is you from what I gathered from the interview.

The hospital is located in Harlem, and there's a strong African American cultural theme there. For example, a grand rounds held there was done by a prominent AA that was almost on the order of a gospel sermon. Not that this was bad.
Patient population is heavy with drug abusers & homeless. Racial profiles run the gamut, but the biggest block appeared to be African Americans, and plenty of people from the West Indies.
The psyche unit was physically smaller compared to most I've seen at other hospitals, but I don't have any numbers to compare. I don't remember the number of beds.
The program is IMG friendly--almost the entire program are IMGs. In fact, it has a reputation for being IMG friendly, so a lot of IMGs get real competitive in getting into this program. Some IMG candidates I saw there were so scared of not getting into a program, they were asking the residents for any edge they could get. They saw NG as their last hope of getting into a program. I had not seen this fear happen in other programs, even IMG friendly ones.

The call schedule there seemed horrendous. When I interviewed-they said first year they were on call Q3, did all nighter calls, and worked 6 days a week. In my own program, first year I was on call Q5-6, calls ended at 10pm and I worked 5 days a week (actually 3.5 because 1.5 days were in protected lecture time--we just sat and had open discussions).

The area didn't particularly seem like NYC's nicest. There was a Turkish bath house (with a big sign--MALES ONLY) just 2 blocks outside the hospital. However it didn't seem dangerous.