NYU IM

[MattSmith45]

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Why does NYU IM's program accept international medical grads (10% of their program is composed of them) but does not accept DOs? What is the logic behind this b/c I thought going to a DO school gives you an edge over a school abroad?

i guess i'm just confused on NYU's thought process on this matter. anyone care to elaborate?

 

[22031 Alum]

Not at NYU, but at a program that does not accept DOs, in favor of IMG MDs. It is just bias, pure and simple. You are at an advantage overall, just not with certain programs.

 

[Wolverines83]

Snobbery. Pure and simple. Imgs have MD after there name. That's all.

 

[22031 Alum]

Snobbery. Pure and simple. Imgs have MD after there name. That's all.

I don't think it's snobbery as much as a fundamental misunderstanding of the medical school applicant pool now vs. 30 years ago. I had colleagues genuinely surprised when I said that it's considered a wise move for someone who misses out on MD admission, to try for DO first. I guess in the 80s (maybe 90s), it was more common to just skip over DO schools in favor of going abroad to get the right letters.

 

[Wolverines83]

Eh, potato potahhto.

 

[preDoGuy24]

I think it needs to be stated that all FMGs are not created equal, there is a huge difference between Ross/AUC and any of the medical schools in say England...I can name several top programs that routinely take people from these schools I wouldn't even consider them an 'fmg" in the context that it is typically used but they are seen as that on the website.

100% agree that US MD>US DO>FMG/IMG for the most part...

 

[meliora27]

Why does NYU IM's program accept international medical grads (10% of their program is composed of them) but does not accept DOs? What is the logic behind this b/c I thought going to a DO school gives you an edge over a school abroad?

i guess i'm just confused on NYU's thought process on this matter. anyone care to elaborate?

Why not email the PD and ask? Worst that happens is they don't write back.

Besides, I'm sure that many here on the forum would be curious to know what response they put in writing...

 

[Kniveschau29]

I have met great and horrible DO and FMG students, residents and attendings. Same goes with US MD.

I think the big difference is that you'll rarely see an 18-22 MCAT student at a DO whereas they exist in significant numbers at Caribbean schools. However, there might be more 28-32 MCAT students at Caribbean schools but who knows...Just commenting on my own experience

I am a DO student and am very happy with my decision. I ended up in my home state and residency worked out for me. Others may feel differently on either side...

 

[NurWollen]

I've often wondered if some MD programs put more stock in DOs' use of OMM than DOs do and fear that by taking a DO they'll either get residents who don't understand science-based medicine or that they'll broadcast a sense that the residency isn't heavy-science oriented.

Both of which are ridiculous because anyone who has spent time with DOs know that for the most part they're just as science-oriented or not as their MD counterparts.

Then again, DO applicants as a whole probably have less researchy CVs than a lot of foreign grads. Especially the foreign grads programs like NYU take... people who were the absolute best and brightest in hate ver country they came from.

 

[MattSmith45]

Im going to email one of the PDs

 

[Butterfly23]

not just NYU, COlumbia and Mt.Sinai, Montefiore(they picked one DO few years ago), Northshore LIJ do not pick DOs in their IM programs.
These big NYC/Long Island IM programs simply do not accept DOs 🙁

 

[Butterfly23]

I might be wrong with North Shore LIJ but they have their own allopathic medical schools so they will take their owns. A lot of downstate people match there

 

[hallowmann]

I might be wrong with North Shore LIJ but they have their own allopathic medical schools so they will take their owns. A lot of downstate people match there

The annoying thing is that before Hofstra-LIJ opened, that was a big DO hospital with some solid DO residencies. Now they don't touch DOs. Kind of ridiculous considering how quickly their policies changed.

 

[NurWollen]

The annoying thing is that before Hofstra-LIJ opened, that was a big DO hospital with some solid DO residencies. Now they don't touch DOs. Kind of ridiculous considering how quickly their policies changed.

This is the worst kind of thing right here. Obviously they know DOs are capable physicians, since in the past they employed them before. One can only conclude that they made a conscious decision to no longer accept DOs, because they fear accepting DOs will make them look weak. I don't know how those kind of people can stand themselves.

Edit: Also, what is it about MD schools that a brand new one from a university of average reputation can swoop in and hospitals be all, 'let's screw over all our existing affiliates and get with these guys.'

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Nevermind

 

[Kniveschau29]

not just NYU, COlumbia and Mt.Sinai, Montefiore(they picked one DO few years ago), Northshore LIJ do not pick DOs in their IM programs.
These big NYC/Long Island IM programs simply do not accept DOs 🙁

Not entirely true. Interviewed for GS at Monte, NSLIJ and Icahn Beth Israel (not main Sinai)

 

[JimmyB123]

The annoying thing is that before Hofstra-LIJ opened, that was a big DO hospital with some solid DO residencies. Now they don't touch DOs. Kind of ridiculous considering how quickly their policies changed.

Hofstra isn't elite in any measure. How can they manage to stay selective like that?

 

[meliora27]

Hofstra isn't elite in any measure. How can they manage to stay selective like that?

Supply and Demand.

Lots of people want be in NY

 

[TopTomato]

Supply and Demand.

Lots of people want be in NY

Kind of ironic, I remember seeing some post about NYC being the worst place to be a physician

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Kind of ironic, I remember seeing some post about NYC being the worst place to be a physician

There's an old joke about a Columbia dean, trying to advise one of his students. This student was a little bit of a weaker applicant, and the dean said "you need to broaden your school list".

The student replies: "Oh, I did. I added programs in Long Island and New Jersey."

 

[NurWollen]

There's an old joke about a Columbia dean, trying to advise one of his students. This student was a little bit of a weaker applicant, and the dean said "you need to broaden your school list".

The student replies: "Oh, I did. I added programs in Long Island and New Jersey."

It always amazes me how many people on here consider New York and California to be the only habitable states. I've seen people refer to Tucson, Arizona as a 'small town' and express surprise that KCOM students have access to broadband internet.

 

[235009]

Why does NYU IM's program accept international medical grads (10% of their program is composed of them) but does not accept DOs? What is the logic behind this b/c I thought going to a DO school gives you an edge over a school abroad?

i guess i'm just confused on NYU's thought process on this matter. anyone care to elaborate?

Not at NYU, but at a program that does not accept DOs, in favor of IMG MDs. It is just bias, pure and simple. You are at an advantage overall, just not with certain programs.

Snobbery. Pure and simple. Imgs have MD after there name. That's all.

I don't think it's snobbery as much as a fundamental misunderstanding of the medical school applicant pool now vs. 30 years ago. I had colleagues genuinely surprised when I said that it's considered a wise move for someone who misses out on MD admission, to try for DO first. I guess in the 80s (maybe 90s), it was more common to just skip over DO schools in favor of going abroad to get the right letters.

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

 

[22031 Alum]

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

I was speaking about my own current program which is not NYU. Here it is bias. My colleagues here were under the sincere impression that better applicants skip over DO in favor of the Caribbean to get an MD. Sorry for inserting an example irrelevant to the original topic.

 

[Wolverines83]

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

Thanks for proving my point! 🙂 👍

Since we're actually debating the definition of the word snob...As per the Oxford English Dictionary:

Snob: A person with an exaggerated respect for high social position. A person who seeks to associate with social superiors and dislikes people or activities regarded as lower class.

Tell me again how only accepting people from places they deem appropriate is not snobbery? Now if they had honestly taken a hard look at each and every candidate as an individual and decided to not go with DOs, you're right, that's not snobbery. But ignoring them based on a perceived sense of inferiority based on their institution? Well, that's literally the textbook definition of snobbery.

 

[diesel2101]

Kind of ironic, I remember seeing some post about NYC being the worst place to be a physician

Hofstra-NSLIJ is not really NYC. It's located roughly midway between NYC and the tree-lined suburban streets of Long Island.

 

[MattSmith45]

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

I think you're overstating the facts. Look at NYU's neurology program for instance. Both IMG and FMG grads in the program, approx equal proportions. I don't think they are only recruiting the best and the brightest. They obviously are bringing in carribean grads at the same rate, no offense to them. But what they don't bring in are DOs. And I'm sure this translates to other NYU residency programs.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't really buy the whole ' all the foreign grads went to elite institutions, are very impressive, fantastic MCAT scores, blah blah blah.'

 

[NontradCA]

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

Why would a PD care about MCAT scores?

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Tell me again how only accepting people from places they deem appropriate is not snobbery?.

.....it isnt. Thats what programs are supposed to do.

 

[NurWollen]

Let's get some things straight because the only fundamental misunderstanding is from the above posters in this thread. The PD of that program and the several others that do this know exactly what they're doing, they're not being biased nor are they snobs. The foreign grads at these programs are not coming from the Caribbean. They went to elite institutions around the world and are typically foreign nationals. They have very extensive and impressive acedemic accomplishments and fantastic MCAT scores. They didn't have the opportunity to get into a US MD school but would easily have if they weren't biased against foreign nationals.

This is probably partially true for NYU. They are an elite program and can have their pick. So they only take the very best IMGs.
Why then, do they have a stated policy that prevents them from taking the very best DOs?

 

[Wolverines83]

.....it isnt. Thats what programs are supposed to do.

Perhaps you're arguing that some programs should be snobs.

That's fine. Snobs are gonna snob....what can ya do?

But let's be grown ups here and call it what it is. Disregarding someone specifically based on where they come from is....snobbery.

Sorry

 

[Kniveschau29]

This is probably partially true for NYU. They are an elite program and can have their pick. So they only take the very best IMGs.
Why then, do they have a stated policy that prevents them from taking the very best DOs?

On the IM residency website it specifically says we do not take osteopathic graduates

 

[NurWollen]

On the IM residency website it specifically says we do not take osteopathic graduates

Yeah I know. I am wondering how MeatTornado thinks that the fact that they only take superb FMG applicants mitigates the fact that they officially discriminate against DOs. If they only took superb FMGs and superb DOs, that would be one thing (because let's face it, they only take superb US MD applicants too.)

As it is right now, they basically say "some foreign graduates are good enough for us, but no DO is good enough for us."

That's discrimination. No way around it.

 

[Sileni]

Yeah I know. I am wondering how MeatTornado thinks that the fact that they only take superb FMG applicants mitigates the fact that they officially discriminate against DOs. If they only took superb FMGs and superb DOs, that would be one thing (because let's face it, they only take superb US MD applicants too.)

As it is right now, they basically say "some foreign graduates are good enough for us, but no DO is good enough for us."

That's discrimination. No way around it.

Discrimination? There's no discrimination in picking someone who is better qualified. FMGs are not Caribbean. These are people who are physicians in their home country, and probably much more qualified than most other people in their class.

Picking someone with a US MD or even an FMG over a DO isn't discrimination any more than picking a Harvard Business school grad over a University of Phoenix grad is discrimination. Before anyone asks - no, I am not comparing DO schools to UofPhoenix, just a simple analogy -- but there is a for-profit DO school so...

 

[NurWollen]

Discrimination? There's no discrimination in picking someone who is better qualified. FMGs are not Caribbean. These are people who are physicians in their home country, and probably much more qualified than most other people in their class.

Picking someone with a US MD or even an FMG over a DO isn't discrimination any more than picking a Harvard Business school grad over a University of Phoenix grad is discrimination. Before anyone asks - no, I am not comparing DO schools to UofPhoenix, just a simple analogy -- but there is a for-profit DO school so...

But they are saying there is no way a DO can be qualified enough for them... no matter their medical knowledge, GPA, clerkship grades, USMLE scores, research publicantions, and so on.

Of course, the truth is, they worry that allowing DOs into their program will dilute their brand, or at least the perception of their brand.

 

[Sileni]

But they are saying there is no way a DO can be qualified enough for them... no matter their medical knowledge, GPA, clerkship grades, USMLE scores, research publicantions, and so on.

Of course, the truth is, they worry that allowing DOs into their program will dilute their brand, or at least the perception of their brand.

No they are simply stating their hiring requirements don't encompass the Doctor of Osteopathy degree. That's not discrimination. Discrimination is not hiring someone because they're black/female/gay/jewish. Not because they don't meet the educational qualifications of your institution.

Also, DO is a factor much like USMLE scores, research, etc. and just as some programs care more about research than others - some programs care about the school/degree more than others.

 

[NurWollen]

No they are simply stating their hiring requirements don't encompass the Doctor of Osteopathy degree. That's not discrimination. Discrimination is not hiring someone because they're black/female/gay/jewish. Not because they don't meet the educational qualifications of your institution.

Also, DO is a factor much like USMLE scores, research, etc. and just as some programs care more about research than others - some programs care about the school/degree more than others.

It's discriminatory in spirit. I'm not trying to sound entitled. I, for example, have no business applying to their program. But I have classmates who are insanely brilliant, dedicated, and who will blow the average MD away when it comes to board scores as well as real-life medical knowledge. They deserve a shot.

 

[Sileni]

It's discriminatory in spirit. I'm not trying to sound entitled. I, for example, have no business applying to their program. But I have classmates who are insanely brilliant, dedicated, and who will blow the average MD away when it comes to board scores as well as real-life medical knowledge. They deserve a shot.

scores aren't everything - scoring well on the USMLE doesn't make you a competent physician. Residencies often like known values. LCME schools are known quantities. Sure a DO may have 280/280 Step 1/2 great letters, but there is so much more that goes into that. What's the quality of their third year rotations, etc. LCME guarantees a minimum, COCA has failed to provide the same with so many walmart schools popping up, even for-profit programs.

 

[Malcolm X]

I can agree with that point ^ however do carib schools have LCME rotations?

MD rotation quality > DO >>>>>>Carib

Also how can you justify DO students being selected in equally competitive programs all across the Country but excluded from NYU IM

For example, There was a uc Davis derm resident who is a DO


How can you account for the fact that DOs are slowly eroding the DO bias all over the country, but at this particular program there is still an attempt to block DOs from entering this residency



I would agree with you 100% if your argument was valid, but your logic has some holes in it

 

[Sileni]

I can agree with that point ^ however do carib schools have LCME rotations?

MD rotation quality > DO >>>>>>Carib

Also how can you justify DO students being selected in equally competitive programs all across the Country but excluded from NYU IM

For example, There was a uc Davis derm resident who is a DO


How can you account for the fact that DOs are slowly eroding the DO bias all over the country, but at this particular program there is still a clear distinct bias

Caribbean Schools are not LCME accreditted and their rotations are questionable at best. Anecdotal evidence is great, but unless UCD is consistently taking DOs I'm more inclined to believe they knew someone. DOs are getting access to more mid-tier programs, but top tier programs are still passing on their applications en mass. Even many mid-tier programs like NYU pass on DOs because there is simply a plethora of US MDs who want those spots. MD >> DO >>>>>(x10000000000) Caribbean "MD"

Unfortunately, many US MDs use the number of DOs/Caribbeans as a de facto sign of program quality. I am also going to summon @MeatTornado to back me up on this.

 

[Malcolm X]

Caribbean Schools are not LCME accreditted and their rotations are questionable at best. Anecdotal evidence is great, but unless UCD is consistently taking DOs I'm more inclined to believe they knew someone. DOs are getting access to more mid-tier programs, but top tier programs are still passing on their applications en mass. Even many mid-tier programs like NYU pass on DOs because there is simply a plethora of US MDs who want those spots. MD >> DO >>>>>(x10000000000) Caribbean "MD"

Okay cool

But why does NYU take US FMG/IMG then???

They have simply indicated they're ignoring the well accepted notion that U.S. MD>DO> Caribbean

 

[Sileni]

Okay cool

But why does NYU take US FMG/IMG then???

They have simply indicated they're ignoring the well accepted notion that U.S. MD>DO> Caribbean

To my knowledge they take no IMGs, they do take FMGs. IMG = Caribbean "MD"

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Perhaps you're arguing that some programs should be snobs.

That's fine. Snobs are gonna snob....what can ya do?

But let's be grown ups here and call it what it is. Disregarding someone specifically based on where they come from is....snobbery.

Sorry

You are being a hypocritical little bitch about this. You are perfectly OK when programs choose DOs over IMGs, but when the situation is reversed its "snobby".

Lets actually be grown ups here.

 

[Wolverines83]

You are being a hypocritical little bitch about this. You are perfectly OK when programs choose DOs over IMGs, but when the situation is reversed its "snobby".

Lets actually be grown ups here.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Never said I was OK with that at all.

Name calling is very grown up. Keep up the good work!

 

[the argus]

MD rotation quality > DO >>>>>>Carib

MD >> DO >>>>>(x10000000000) Caribbean "MD".

I'm a caribbean "MD". Every single clinical rotation I did in medical school was alongside US allopathic or osteopathic medical students. You should not talk about things that you actually know nothing about.

If you need to crap on caribbean medical students to make yourself feel better, that's fine, just know that what you are saying has no basis in reality. DO outcomes in the NRMP are much more similar to IMGs than USMDs, which is why they are grouped with "independent applicants" in the data reports rather than with US allopathic students.

The fact of the matter is that DOs are treated like second class applicants because they are. Most DO students would have gone to an allopathic medical school if they could have got in. Whether right or wrong, labels stick with people through medical school and into residency.

 

[Wolverines83]

But now this is getting personal so I'm calling it quits. Not interested in flaming each other. I'm sure you're not either

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

The argus (the guy who had to apply to over 100 programs to find a match) is back to tell us about how IMGs are comparable to DOs. So I too am out

Edit: i apologize @Wolverines83 ...I was being a jerk.
I especially didn't mean to wake the argus.

 

[NurWollen]

I'm a caribbean "MD". Every single clinical rotation I did in medical school was alongside US allopathic or osteopathic medical students. You should not talk about things that you actually know nothing about.

If you need to crap on caribbean medical students to make yourself feel better, that's fine, just know that what you are saying has no basis in reality. DO outcomes in the NRMP are much more similar to IMGs than USMDs, which is why they are grouped with "independent applicants" in the data reports rather than with US allopathic students.

The fact of the matter is that DOs are treated like second class applicants because they are. Most DO students would have gone to an allopathic medical school if they could have got in. Whether right or wrong, labels stick with people through medical school and into residency.

You make a great point. Obviously if I'm against DO discrimination then its only consistent that I oppose IMG discrimination as well. Its not that I dont think where you go to school matters or that the caliber of your school shouldn't be taken in to account. I just wish programs would actually consider individuals based on their own merits, rather than dismissing a whole class of applicants without thought. What you guys go though in the match sucks. Medicine as a whole would be a lot better environment if we all would stop crapping on other educational routes, other specialties, other schools, etc and support each other instead. I look forward to working with US MDs, DOs, IMGs and FMGs as a resident and as an attending.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

You make a great point. Obviously if I'm against DO discrimination then its only consistent that I oppose IMG discrimination as well. Its not that I dont think where you go to school matters or that the caliber of your school shouldn't be taken in to account. I just wish programs would actually consider individuals based on their own merits, rather than dismissing a whole class of applicants without thought. What you guys go though in the match sucks. Medicine as a whole would be a lot better environment if we all would stop crapping on other educational routes, other specialties, other schools, etc and support each other instead. I look forward to working with US MDs, DOs, IMGs and FMGs as a resident and as an attending.

I look forward to a perfectly fair world too. Thats not how the world exists though.

Its not discrimination. Just like its not "discrimination" when you compare the Commonwealth Medical school to Harvard Medical school.

 

[the argus]

The argus (the guy who had to apply to over 100 programs to find a match) is back to tell us about how IMGs are comparable to DOs. So I too am out

Edit: i apologize @Wolverines83 ...I was being a jerk.
I especially didn't mean to wake the argus.

Is this supposed to be an insult? I matched into my top choice university program, where I will work alongside with USMDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and foreign-IMGs.

People seemed baffled as to why DOs are treated as less than USMDs, and I was just pointing out the obvious (and correcting the nonsense that was being presented as fact)

 

[Sileni]

Is this supposed to be an insult? I matched into my top choice university program, where I will work alongside with USMDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and foreign-IMGs.

People seemed baffled as to why DOs are treated as less than USMDs, and I was just pointing out the obvious (and correcting the nonsense that was being presented as fact)

Saying you matched into a university program means nothing. There are lots of IMG-riddled university programs where US MDs wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. In addition, just because your school may pay hospitals to have your students rotate within proximity to US MD students doesn't mean your rotating with them. LCME programs have requirements well beyond just showing up and taking an exam at the end of a rotation.