Ok tell me, what path will net more $$$ than medicine?

[Norm0cephalic]

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If you are talented enough to get into medicine, you are talented enough to make big money in a business career better suited to your interests/motivation. Sure there are plenty of people barely making it in business but they wouldn't have gotten into med school /residency either.

I really hate this notion. My friends with business careers have completely different qualities and personal attributes than I do. They are much better at their job than I would ever be and they aren't even the ones making big money. I don't think success in one path necessarily translates into or entitles you to success in the other. Maybe this is just N=1, but I'd personally find it much more difficult to make it to "big money" in a business career than getting into medical school.

 

[Simpson]

The problem with all these specialties is that the chances of you making bank in them are very low. Sure the top make tons of money but the vast majority don't-many don't even have jobs.
As a doctor your essentially promised a high salary and that you'll have a job

Nope, I know plenty of doctors(MD's) who get paid 32$ per hour for measly 50k salaries a year. Hospitalists.

 

[musicalscientists]

Go into business in wall street. Seriously. I know people making 100k a bit way out of college being analysts for JP Morgan Chase. Succeed and become an exec. You'll make millions if you work your way up.

Or go into medicine and then go to wall street working for a hedge fund specializing in healthcare or biotech.

 

[Simpson]

Go into business in wall street. Seriously. I know people making 100k a bit way out of college being analysts for JP Morgan Chase. Succeed and become an exec. You'll make millions if you work your way up.

If... Plus, you would never even have the chance to make billions in medicine.

 

[musicalscientists]

If... Plus, you would never even have the chance to make billions in medicine.

I edited my post while you typed this haha!

Yeah medicine itself wouldn't net you billions, but working on wall street might. If you got an MD, there would be opportunity somewhere for ya.

Carl Icahn went to med school but dropped out soon after. Now he's one of the richest people in the world.

 

[Simpson]

I edited my post while you typed this haha!

Yeah medicine itself wouldn't net you billions, but working on wall street might. If you got an MD, there would be opportunity somewhere for ya.

Carl Icahn went to med school but dropped out soon after. Now he's one of the richest people in the world.

and how many other people did this work out for? besides Carl Icahn....lets talk about Joe's chances.

 

[shouldvestudied]

I really hate this notion. My friends with business careers have completely different qualities and personal attributes than I do. They are much better at their job than I would ever be and they aren't even the ones making big money. I don't think success in one path necessarily translates into or entitles you to success in the other. Maybe this is just N=1, but I'd personally find it much more difficult to make it to "big money" in a business career than getting into medical school.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I was surprised to see LizzyM serving this particular brand of Kool-Aid.

 

[musicalscientists]

.

 

[Simpson]

It should be obvious that it's slim for anyone. A part of it is being in the right place at the right time. Anyone can learn how to invest, but not everyone can successfully start a company that results in enormous wealth. I've tried both, and the former is much more doable. I failed with the latter partly because I didn't have the proper experience, and largely because I would have been forced to take out a loan to start a company. It was a good idea, and I discussed it with a colleague of mine who had experience in the matter. I stuck with investing because I've been actively involved with it since I was about 16. It's safer in my opinion if you know how to do it right 😛

Agreed.

 

[volcomx]

Consulting. You can break into it as a bio major. Starts off at 75k. 5 years of work+MBA and you'll be making 150k. If you put in the work, you have a very good chance to make it up to director/principal where you make 200-300k by your early 30s. Partner is much harder to make, but if you do you'll take in 500k-several million. Lots of people drop out of consulting because it's very demanding and people realize making 100k at a job you like is a lot better than making 200k at a job you hate. Lots of travel, and the work doesn't end when you leave the office. As an entry level consultant, you'll constantly be called at midnight to finish up an analysis or double check a presentation. As a manager/principal, you'll be the one calling your team making sure they're set for the important presentation the following day and you'll be making sure your clients are satisfied.

If you are insane, investment banking is the surest way to make disgusting amounts of money, but you'll have to put in 100 hr weeks. I've got a few friends grinding away that plan on retiring from IB in their early 30s with a few mil in their bank. Not a terrible strategy I guess...

 

[WingedOx]

Agreed wholeheartedly. I was surprised to see LizzyM serving this particular brand of Kool-Aid.

Neither @LizzyM nor @Norm0cephalic are wrong, but they're both talking about different things.

 

[LizzyM]

I really hate this notion. My friends with business careers have completely different qualities and personal attributes than I do. They are much better at their job than I would ever be and they aren't even the ones making big money. I don't think success in one path necessarily translates into or entitles you to success in the other. Maybe this is just N=1, but I'd personally find it much more difficult to make it to "big money" in a business career than getting into medical school.

You have an interest in something other than making gobs of money and you have native intelligence that, I would guess, puts you in the top 5% of the US population. I'm saying that people with smarts and work ethic/time management can succeed in their chosen profession. If that profession is business, it is possible to achieve an income at or above the median for physicians.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Which is like telling someone to go to medical school to get rich as a doctor?

Either way, one has to work hard.

I've heard of starving artists and starving authors.

I've never heard of a starving doctor.

 

[Upwardtrendfornow]

I feel like with medicine, the basement is great in the sense that most doctors make six figures but the ceilings are not as high as they are with finance or law. With law, the basement is awful but the ceilings are sky high.

As for pro sports, I laughed at that idea. The truth is that if you do not have the potential, experience, statistics, game tape, and talent by the age of 18, you will never be a pro athlete in your entire life.

 

[somedudehere]

Go into business in wall street. Seriously. I know people making 100k a bit way out of college being analysts for JP Morgan Chase. Succeed and become an exec. You'll make millions if you work your way up.

Or go into medicine and then go to wall street working for a hedge fund specializing in healthcare or biotech.

You're saying this like it's easy to just get a an analyst position at an IB and "work your way up". Medicine isn't the only competitive field. You have to be at the TOP of your game for any IB positions as well.

 

[Goro]

I've ever heard of a starving hedge fund mgr or stockbroker either.

I've heard of starving artists and starving authors.

I've never heard of a starving doctor.

 

[NeuResurgens]

"Don't go into medicine if all you want to do is make money" -every pre-med ad infinitum.

You know, actual doctors say this too. You need to enjoy whatever it is you're doing - I think making money as the solitary focus of your career is a pretty good track to dissatisfaction regardless of what you end up doing. It's not just doctors who say that money shouldn't be your primary motivation.

 

[deleted577188]

You know, actual doctors say this too. You need to enjoy whatever it is you're doing - I think making money as the solitary focus of your career is a pretty good track to dissatisfaction regardless of what you end up doing. It's not just doctors who say that money shouldn't be your primary motivation.

For every 7 doctors who aren't in it for money, I would bet there's 1 who did it not because he/she was an altruistic pre-med, but because he/she had the patience and smarts to know that working as a physician would guarantee him 3 meals a day and a very comfortable lifestyle. Whether that means "doing it for money" or not, I'll never know. I'm sure many doctors don't admit this when it is the case.

 

[Aerus]

I really hate this notion. My friends with business careers have completely different qualities and personal attributes than I do. They are much better at their job than I would ever be and they aren't even the ones making big money. I don't think success in one path necessarily translates into or entitles you to success in the other. Maybe this is just N=1, but I'd personally find it much more difficult to make it to "big money" in a business career than getting into medical school.

Probably because you're not passionate about what your friends do. The thing about business is you turn your passion into a venture to make money. It requires a certain drive and intelligence, which people who have what it takes to become a doctor presumably have.

 

[medicalCPA]

Summary of this thread:

"Don't go into medicine if all you care about is money. There are easier ways of making money than becoming a doctor."

OP: "I'm going into medicine for the money. Could you tell me which professions I could pursue to make a comparable income?"

Answer: "Medicine."

 

[resiroth]

To everyone saying the ceiling in medicine is low...consider that a non-trivial amount of ophthalmologists make 7 figures. There are some UCSF pathologists making 1.5 million. Plenty of surgeons sell their practice for millions.

Note in all these cases people had to take risks and run a business. While IB has essentially an unlimited ceiling, it's also arguably the least fulfilling profession. It's honestly the only profession I can think of where you don't actually help more people than you hurt. It's a 0 sum game.

You'll also note that most doctors are okay with their 200-500k salaries and don't feel the need to open a practice and hustle incredibly hard (most doctors work 40-60, not 80+). Those that do reap financial reward, but studies have shown 70k is about the limit where more money doesn't make you happier.

While I think 70k is probably a bit on the low end, I also think many of the people on Wall Street have an unhealthy relationship to money. Icahn is a good example. Despite being so old he could die at any moment and having more money than he could spend, he continues to try and claw more money out of the system.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/opinion/sunday/for-the-love-of-money.html?referrer=

If you really want 7 figures in medicine you get achieve it, but I honestly think it's unhealthy to focus so much on money. There will always be someone with more than you, until there isn't and then you don't want to lose your title of "wealthiest man/woman"

I think what people are saying is that while it's not easier to make money in IB, it is a profession more suited to it.

 

[WingedOx]

I know a couple Ophtho guys making 7 figures. An empire built on years of triple digit number of operations per week, farming out the followup and pre-op to optometrists. It's not particularly ethical.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

If I weren't passionate about my field, I'd choose a job with less chance of coming home with bodily fluids on my clothes after having been awake for 36 hours straight. Just saying.

 

[packersfans]

I realized something about myself. All I really care about is if I make money in a reasonably ethical fashion.

I'm not sure what the point of you post is, however I do want to comment on the above. Good for you for realizing that. I feel the same way. If you head out into the workforce you will be shocked by how many people will do insanely unethical things to get just a little more money, even when they are raking it in by the boatload.

BTW non-petroleum engineers can make $100k first year out of college, not mid-career. YMMV

 

[packersfans]

I realized after having a job and actually working 50 hours that I was probably spending close to 25-30 in undergrad on my studies.

LOL QFT

 

[LizzyM]

IB isn't the only business and neither is being a stock broker.

There are people who run companies. They manage companies that manufacture things, that bring products to the marketplace whether it is a nutritional product, a medical device, a drug, or something like an "app" or a service. There are companies that make and sell things unrelated to health and medicine.

You are going to start low, work hard and build up to a big compensation package but it is possible. I think it is very highly probable if you are smart and work smart at something you love.

 

[Doudline]

Agree with LizzyM.

Some of you are strongly overestimating the capacities needed to succeed in business.
Sure, very few are going to make 8+ figures a year, but a few hundred Ks to a few millions? If you have a sound mind and are patient, it's achievable by anyone - no luck involved (besides being born in a wealthy country, decent family, having been educated, etc).

 

[WingedOx]

To add on to that, peoples' "personal qualities" adapt to the requirements in front of them, both in medicine and otherwise. A survey showing the most commonly listed qualities that make someone cut out for medicine given between pre-meds and attending physicians is likely to give wildly differing results.

 

[puglet]

To everyone saying the ceiling in medicine is low...consider that a non-trivial amount of ophthalmologists make 7 figures. There are some UCSF pathologists making 1.5 million. Plenty of surgeons sell their practice for millions.

These people are the exception rather than the rule. Not sure what you mean by "non-trivial" and "plenty" but the two dermatopathologists making 7 figures at UCSF are highly renowned in their field and are sought out for their expertise. They are definitely exceptions.

If you really want 7 figures in medicine you get achieve it

Someone would need a significant amount of luck, talent, and hard work in order to achieve a 7-figure salary in medicine. It's not realistic to go into medicine and expect to make a 7-figure salary, even with a lot of hard work. Many doctors work very hard all their lives and don't achieve those figures. And who knows how reimbursement will change down the line?

Ultimately, I agree with @LizzyM that people should choose their careers based on what interests them most and what they would love doing. Rising to the top in any field is going to require work. If superficial factors were less of a factor in choosing careers, perhaps a larger number of physicians would be more satisfied with their careers.

 

[resiroth]

These people are the exception rather than the rule. Not sure what you mean by "non-trivial" and "plenty" but the two dermatopathologists making 7 figures at UCSF are highly renowned in their field and are sought out for their expertise. They are definitely exceptions.


Someone would need a significant amount of luck, talent, and hard work in order to achieve a 7-figure salary in medicine. It's not realistic to go into medicine and expect to make a 7-figure salary, even with a lot of hard work. Many doctors work very hard all their lives and don't achieve those figures. And who knows how reimbursement will change down the line?

Ultimately, I agree with @LizzyM that people should choose their careers based on what interests them most and what they would love doing. Rising to the top in any field is going to require work. If superficial factors were less of a factor in choosing careers, perhaps a larger number of physicians would be more satisfied with their careers.

"Someone would need a significant amount of luck, talent, and hard work in order to achieve a 7-figure salary in business. It's not realistic to go into business and expect to make a 7-figure salary, even with a lot of hard work. Many MBAs work very hard all their lives and don't achieve those figures. And who knows how your company will change down the line?"

Yes, those pathologists are famous, but any leader in their field will be paid well. There are a few opthalmologists at UCs making >1 million. There are a ton of opthalmologists making >1 million in private practice. You know what they have? a bit of luck, a lot of people skills, a desire to take risks and a willingness to work hard. Exactly what you need to make it work in business.

 

[puglet]

There are a ton of opthalmologists making >1 million in private practice.

Where are you getting these "stats"? Oh yeah, you're making them up.

 

[NeuResurgens]

For every 7 doctors who aren't in it for money, I would bet there's 1 who did it not because he/she was an altruistic pre-med, but because he/she had the patience and smarts to know that working as a physician would guarantee him 3 meals a day and a very comfortable lifestyle. Whether that means "doing it for money" or not, I'll never know. I'm sure many doctors don't admit this when it is the case.

I'm not talking about wanting to make a decent living here.

 

[resiroth]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...grads-with-something-positive-to-say.1134817/
"Most of my colleagues around here (comprehensive or retina), ~5 years out of fellowship, are making high-6 figures or 7 figures. So yes, there are some positive stories out there attachFull192232"

Are you all that surprised that doctors are unwilling to disclose their salaries? Every week you see a "WOW DOCTORS MAKE A LOT OF MONEY" articles.

Note: I didn't say you're going to make a million in LA. You're going to have to live in an area that isn't filled with other doctors...

Given that the median salary for spine surgeons is 700k, are you really all that surprised that people make over a million?

 

[medicaldestroyer]

If we're going off posts this is also a post about salaries in ophthalmology on sdn: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ophthalmologist-salary.1044953/#post-16062604

I posted this reply in another thread on SDN, but it looks like it might be useful here too. I'm an Ophthalmology Recruiter, so I thought I'd throw some real world experience and numbers out there. Following applies for young ophthalmologists straight out of training- not subspecialists or experienced Ophths.

Salary year 1: $175 plus or minus 15%

Salary year 2: Usually a 10% increase over year 1 salary

Production Bonus: Generally 25% to 30% after a threshold of 2.5 times salary is met.

Vacation: 3 or 4 weeks

CME: 1 week reimbursed at $2500

Malpractice is usually paid by the employer.

Tail coverage is hit and miss. Sometimes the employee covers this, sometimes the employer covers this and sometimes it's shared. Sorry- Wish I could be more helpful on Tail but that's what I see- kind of a mixed bag.

Partnership: Usually offered after 2 years.

Getting back to salary again for a moment. The figures I'm quoting are for new general ophthalmology grads- fresh out of school doctors. And there are certainly exceptions to my figures just as there are exceptions to many rules. Several times a year I will hear of salaries in the mid 300's for a general ophthalmologist. When this happens- when a large figure like this is given it is usually because an older solo practice owner wants to get rid of his practice immediately. I also hear of unusually high figures thrown out there by hospitals. The one thing you'll need to keep in mind with hospital agreements, you will likely have to renegotiate your salary after the first contract term- probably 1 or 2 years in and there is no guarantee you’ll be paid at the same high rate.

If anyone would like to ask me more about this you may email me at [email protected]

Thanks

So general ones are usually starting at 175k according to a recruiter?

Note: I didn't say you're going to make a million in LA. You're going to have to live in an area that isn't filled with other doctors...

Given that the median salary for spine surgeons is 700k, are you really all that surprised that people make over a million?

No You said significant number of docs could make over a million in ophthalmology. Yeah a few can at the top of the field. Prolly top 1-2% or probs less than that. Not going to be significant ton of docs like you say.

 

[resiroth]

If we're going off posts this is also a post about salaries in ophthalmology on sdn: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ophthalmologist-salary.1044953/#post-16062604

It seems the general ones are usually starting at 175k according to a recruiter?



No You said significant number of docs could make over a million in ophthalmology. Yeah a few can at the top of the field. Prolly top 1-2% or less. It's not going to be significant ton of docs like you say.

How many people with MBAs make 7 figures? How many consultants? I would say top 1-2% of physicians are making low 7 figures. That's still 10-20k. You act like these people don't exist.

I would also say this. An average MD accepted has a far better chance of making >250k a year at age 35 than someone in consulting. Most drop out of consulting. Medicine is a far more "safe" path to making 250k+ a year.

 

[medicaldestroyer]

How many people with MBAs make 7 figures? How many consultants? I would say top 1-2% of physicians are making low 7 figures. That's still 10-20k. You act like these people don't exist.

Top 1-2% is not very significant. And the real value is probably lower. I've seen the medscape surveys with the salary breakdowns and for even specialties with higher averages than ophtho the 1% tops out before 1 million. Yeah maybe some ppl are lying but not all.

I would also say this. An average MD accepted has a far better chance of making >250k a year at age 35 than someone in consulting. Most drop out of consulting. Medicine is a far more "safe" path to making 250k+ a year.

I agree with this posting:

I feel like with medicine, the basement is great in the sense that most doctors make six figures but the ceilings are not as high as they are with finance or law. With law, the basement is awful but the ceilings are sky high.

OP wants wealth...how many people on this list work as doctors? Medical devices, big pharma, and biotech are there but no medicine.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewi...-of-the-500-richest-people-in-the-world-2015/

14 of 500 made their wealth from hedge funds.
36 of 500 did it with investments.
4 of 500 did it with money management.
17 of 500 did it with banking.
A ton of them started or became higher ups in big businesses.

There's no question if OP wants wealth go hard in business for the win.

 

[resiroth]

Top 1-2% is not very significant. And the real value is probably lower. I've seen the medscape surveys with the salary breakdowns and for even specialties with higher averages than ophtho the 1% tops out before 1 million. Yeah maybe some ppl are lying but not all.



I agree with this posting:


OP wants wealth...how many people on this list work as doctors? Medical devices, big pharma, and biotech are there but no medicine.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewi...-of-the-500-richest-people-in-the-world-2015/

14 of 500 made their wealth from hedge funds.
36 of 500 did it with investments.
4 of 500 did it with money management.
17 of 500 did it with banking.
A ton of them started or became higher ups in big businesses.

There's no question if OP wants wealth go hard in business for the win.

Medscape isn't accurate at all. Mgma.

You say 1-2% isn't significant and then talk about the .01% of businesses.

If OP wants to be in the 1% many doctors fall under that. If Op wants to be in the .1% well welcome to the club, you're not going to make it unless you're lucky with a business.

If you think matching into ophthalmology is harder than founding and running a company such that it ends up being the size of Walmart then you're crazy imo.

 

[medicaldestroyer]

Medscape isn't accurate at all. Mgma.

You say 1-2% isn't significant and then talk about the .01% of businesses.

If OP wants to be in the 1% many doctors fall under that. If Op wants to be in the .1% well welcome to the club, you're not going to make it unless you're lucky with a business.

If you think matching into ophthalmology is harder than founding and running a company such that it ends up being the size of Walmart then you're crazy imo.

 

[URMD]

Ok, I'm a post-bio grad who wants to make money. I put on the breaks because I felt maybe I was heading down the wrong path, frightened I couldn't make it through med school without "passion." So I'm asking you guys, what should I do? I mean it seems most reasonable to carry through to med school since every other path barring law school requires me to redo undergrad for a few years, right? Not to mention their resulting salaries are often worse.

Theme of the thread quoted here for reference

What do you mean when u say make bank? For me making bank means to have enough disposable income to eat out whenever i like and be financially free by early 50s
To others it means they need to buy a private island.

Knowing what 'bank' means to you will help you guide your decision. If you resonate with the 1st option more, medicine is better because you can reach that even at the 'floor' of medicine.

If you need wealth more like option 2, go into business and take on the risk of generating massive wealth with a lower 'floor' if you don't make it.

Thats basically the summary of the entire thread

 

[Spinach Dip]

FWIW, I know 1 MD who makes >1M per year.

He's a DMD-MD-OMFS who has owned a clinic for 30+ years doing everything from tooth cleaning to braces to dental implants. They are open 7 days a week and even have an MD anesthesiologist available (by appointment) for little kids and others who need a little bit of sevo with their fillings. (Though, to be honest, he's more of a business owner than a practicing MD at this point).

 

[WingedOx]

(Though, to be honest, he's more of a business owner than a practicing MD at this point).

Yeah, the Ophtho guys I mentioned doing 150+ operations per week are still doing that, but at this point a massive part of their income now likely comes from the business side, ownership of surgery center, etc. They're big enough that they have a full time MBA running the practice, which seems to be swallowing up smaller practices and expanding geographically by the month.

 

[resiroth]

Yeah, the Ophtho guys I mentioned doing 150+ operations per week are still doing that, but at this point a massive part of their income now likely comes from the business side, ownership of surgery center, etc. They're big enough that they have a full time MBA running the practice, which seems to be swallowing up smaller practices and expanding geographically by the month.

Exactly, you have to become a businessman as an MD to make > 1 million in almost all cases. That's been my argument from the start. My point is that the ceiling for medicine isn't 500k a year, as plenty of doctors have an entrepreneurial spirit.

You have people like @medicaldestroyer talking about the top .000007% of wealth-holders and saying that all you have to do is just "business" your way into this, while simultaneously dismissing the top 1-2% of doctors as being insignificant.

The median salary + bonus for HARVARD's MBA program is 300k. Do people serously think it's as hard to get into any medical school and match into a huge variety of specialties that net 300k+ on the median?

I would say getting into Harvard's MBA program is probably even harder than matching into derm, which nets 385k and requires <40 hours a week.

PS I found MGMA's 2010 report and it shows spine surgeons (top 10%) make ~1.20M, sports med making 1.07M, Retina makes ~1M, Mohs Surgery: 1.1M etc. Most of ortho at 10th percentile makes ~1M.

All this being said: the reason people are reluctant to be frank with salary in public is then hack writers looking for a story say "WOW DOCTORS MAKE LOTS OF MONEY!".

PS: If making 300-500k (which is very doable in medicine) isn't "wealth" to you you're nuts. in 10 years of working and living off median salary *1.5 (or 75k pre-tax) salary you can have a passive income of >150k just from savings. Or work another 10 living at 2x median salary and have a passive income of ~400k.

Most people would consider retiring at 50 with an annual investment income of 400k to having wealth.

 

[zapproximator1]

I've done far too much research on the topic and my understanding is that the "working rich" e.g. the upper-middle class/lower upper class ($200-500k yearly income) tend to cluster among the following occupations:

Medicine/Dentistry (self-explanatory; primarily private practice owners/partners for dentists)
Tech (FAANG engineers, PMs, managers, etc. Concentrated in the Bay Area/Seattle)
Executive Management (almost all industries VP and above in mid-cap, Director and above in large cap)
Sales (software/real estate/med device/finance etc.)
High Finance (IB/PE/VC/PWM/HF etc.)
Professional Services (BigLaw, Big 4 Accounting/Tech Consulting etc.)
Service Business Ownership (often local skill-intensive SMB service businesses like dental offices, accounting firms, HVAC contractors, basement remodelers, and marketing consultants)

In a LCOL/MCOL area the group is predominantly composed of physicians/dentists and lots of business owners (e.g. lawyers and CPAs) alongside various corporate executives and salespeople (especially in real estate and med device).

In a HCOL, you get a lot more Big Tech/high finance/BigLaw/MBB consulting types.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

4 year old thread comes back to life 🙂

 

[Cornfed101]

There are like 20 threads a week on this topic... why bump this one from 4 years ago?

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

If you are talented enough to get into medicine, you are talented enough to make big money in a business career better suited to your interests/motivation. Sure there are plenty of people barely making it in business but they wouldn't have gotten into med school /residency either.

Basically this. I was pulling six figures as a computer engineer without trying. Add a security clearance and you could easily clear double what I was making with banker's hours. If you want more, try your hand as a stock broker.

Edit: Apparently this is a necro thread.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Holy necro bump

 

[gyngyn]

Closing. Although necrobumps are not technically against ToS, there should be some compelling reason to dupe unsuspecting members into something that is this stale.