On (not) passing gross anatomy

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getunconcsious

Very tired PGY1
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Ok, so it's more than a little humiliating for me to write this on here, but after 2 exams, 50% of our final grade has been determined, and I am failing gross anatomy. Not marginal passing, not making a 'D'. Failing, with a big fat 'F'. Now, the situation isn't intractable, as I can still pass IF i make an 80 or better on the next exam and the final.

My reason for posting this is that I have no idea how to do well in this class. I am doing very well in all my other classes, but I can't seem to get anatomy. I am guilty of studying the other classes more due to my hatred of gross, so of course I recognize that I will have to devote much, much more time to it from here on out. My question is what exactly should I do with that time? Stare at the Netter/Rohen? Poke around in bodies as if I know where anything is? Read something? Do questions from the BRS?

I am desperate to pass this class, and I'll probably have to withdraw from school if I don't. As such, I would be most grateful for any study methods which have worked for people in the past. Gross is the one class that I don't really feel like I have a method in, I follow certain regimes in all my other classes and that seems to be working well, but I am totally lost as to how to study effectively for this class. 🙁 :scared:
 
are you having more trouble on the written or practical part? because I feel like there are different study methods required for each. I found clinical correlations to be way easier than actually identifying stuff on the body -- so for me, the key was to grab some people and head down to the lab to poke around and try to quiz each other -- like point out something and ask a secondary question about it; if you don;t know what that part is, ask someone who does know how they know what it is (i.,e. key relationships); I could never absorb ANYTHING during dissection, so it was key for me to come to the lab when I wasn't tired and when it;s quiet in there to poke around on my own time. Outside of lab, I would just read the notes and every time I came across something that I wasn;t sure of its location I would look it up in the Atlas ( I would recommend using both Netter's and Rohen side by side). The problem may very well be that you hate the subject so much it's repulsive to study for it. I went through the same thing with Physics in college and ended up with not such hot grades in it. And I started out the same way with anatomy too -- but I got myself together and I think if you sit down for a day or two and do nothing but anatomy -- you'll begin to see the light and all of a sudden you won't hate it as much. Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps in some way. Good luck -- all is not lost by any means.
 
getunconcsious said:
Ok, so it's more than a little humiliating for me to write this on here, but after 2 exams, 50% of our final grade has been determined, and I am failing gross anatomy. Not marginal passing, not making a 'D'. Failing, with a big fat 'F'. Now, the situation isn't intractable, as I can still pass IF i make an 80 or better on the next exam and the final.

My reason for posting this is that I have no idea how to do well in this class. I am doing very well in all my other classes, but I can't seem to get anatomy. I am guilty of studying the other classes more due to my hatred of gross, so of course I recognize that I will have to devote much, much more time to it from here on out. My question is what exactly should I do with that time? Stare at the Netter/Rohen? Poke around in bodies as if I know where anything is? Read something? Do questions from the BRS?

I am desperate to pass this class, and I'll probably have to withdraw from school if I don't. As such, I would be most grateful for any study methods which have worked for people in the past. Gross is the one class that I don't really feel like I have a method in, I follow certain regimes in all my other classes and that seems to be working well, but I am totally lost as to how to study effectively for this class. 🙁 :scared:

Hi there,
First of all, if you fail the class, there has to be some remediation even if it is taking a summer course. Second, go to the instructor and lay everything out. go to your Dean of Academics and have a talk. The important thing is don't wait until the next exam is upon you, go right now and explain your situation.

Medical school is like boot camp in that you have to go over the wall. Your wall is Gross Anatomy. Hang with people in your class that are passing and get some help. See if you can find an upperclassman that is willing to lend a hand. Is there some kind of peer tutoring center at your school? If so, go and keep going until you figure out what you need. The best way to really learn Anatomy is to help someone who is not doing well. I am sure that some of your colleagues would lend a hand if asked. Be humble, eat crow but pass that class.

You do NOT need to drop out of school, you need to figure out what you have to do to pass even if it means coming back during the summer. There are people who fail Gross Anatomy and go on to make excellent physicians (probably not surgeons) but excellent physicians nevertheless. Don't beat up on yourself but take some drastic action. Think of it this way: "What would you do if your patient was dying?" You would do anything and everything that you could do to save your patient's life. There may be some very small thing that can get you on the right track. Search for it in any way that you can.

njbmd 🙁
 
yellowcat322 said:
are you having more trouble on the written or practical part? because I feel like there are different study methods required for each. I found clinical correlations to be way easier than actually identifying stuff on the body -- so for me, the key was to grab some people and head down to the lab to poke around and try to quiz each other -- like point out something and ask a secondary question about it; if you don;t know what that part is, ask someone who does know how they know what it is (i.,e. key relationships); I could never absorb ANYTHING during dissection, so it was key for me to come to the lab when I wasn't tired and when it;s quiet in there to poke around on my own time. Outside of lab, I would just read the notes and every time I came across something that I wasn;t sure of its location I would look it up in the Atlas ( I would recommend using both Netter's and Rohen side by side). The problem may very well be that you hate the subject so much it's repulsive to study for it. I went through the same thing with Physics in college and ended up with not such hot grades in it. And I started out the same way with anatomy too -- but I got myself together and I think if you sit down for a day or two and do nothing but anatomy -- you'll begin to see the light and all of a sudden you won't hate it as much. Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps in some way. Good luck -- all is not lost by any means.

yea, i agree and always bring Netter's and Rohen to gross anatomy lab with you and look up everything youare unsure of. Also check out other people's cadavers as often structures look different in other bodies. Best of luck!
 
Have you tried asking your anatomy faculty members if they have any suggestions for you? That is where I got my absolute best study tips. They have worked with thousands of students and usually understand what it takes for a variety of learners to assimilate the anatomy material.
 
I was pretty pathetic in gross in the beginning as well. What eventually worked for me was drawing EVERYTHING out by hand then redrawing it from memory over and over again. Now I'm know Netter so my drawings usually consisted of big red blobs as muscles, red lines for arteries, and green for nerves. But by drawing it from memory I was able to put it together in my head. So when the practical came around I was able to determine what structure should be where.
 
getunconcsious said:
Ok, so it's more than a little humiliating for me to write this on here, but after 2 exams, 50% of our final grade has been determined, and I am failing gross anatomy. Not marginal passing, not making a 'D'. Failing, with a big fat 'F'. Now, the situation isn't intractable, as I can still pass IF i make an 80 or better on the next exam and the final.

My reason for posting this is that I have no idea how to do well in this class. I am doing very well in all my other classes, but I can't seem to get anatomy. I am guilty of studying the other classes more due to my hatred of gross, so of course I recognize that I will have to devote much, much more time to it from here on out. My question is what exactly should I do with that time? Stare at the Netter/Rohen? Poke around in bodies as if I know where anything is? Read something? Do questions from the BRS?

I am desperate to pass this class, and I'll probably have to withdraw from school if I don't. As such, I would be most grateful for any study methods which have worked for people in the past. Gross is the one class that I don't really feel like I have a method in, I follow certain regimes in all my other classes and that seems to be working well, but I am totally lost as to how to study effectively for this class. 🙁 :scared:


I barely passed our Block I gross exam and so i changed my studying style for this block II exam. I don't know if you want to try this or not.
I found a good study partner ( one of your tank mates by the way). i outlined the notes in a way that made sense in my own words. Because I don't know about you but some of our lectures are not the greatest teachers or that organized. Then we went over things over and over again quizzing each other,then we both went into the lab and tried to id structures ( once we had a sorta clue what stuff was). This really helped with this block of tests.
 
relema said:
I barely passed our Block I gross exam and so i changed my studying style for this block II exam. I don't know if you want to try this or not.
I found a good study partner ( one of your tank mates by the way). i outlined the notes in a way that made sense in my own words. Because I don't know about you but some of our lectures are not the greatest teachers or that organized. Then we went over things over and over again quizzing each other,then we both went into the lab and tried to id structures ( once we had a sorta clue what stuff was). This really helped with this block of tests.


My tankmates are cool, they actually know things! :laugh: I guess I'll just have to pay better attention. I thought I knew stuff better this time, but I miscalculated where the emphasis would be (I thought it would be on cranial nerves, and it was on larynx and infratemporal fossa--as though anyone, anywhere, ever cared about those topics!) I feel a little better now since I have talked to so many people in our class that failed it, at least I'm not the only one. I bet the average is really, really low compared to last time.

Thanks to all of you for the advice. Netter and Rohen are about to become my new best buddies 🙄
 
Hey getunconcious, now I by no means am going to honor or even high pass this class, I'm just going for a comforatable pass at this point so please take my personal methods with a grain of salt.

I try to spend as little time in the lab as possible. People who live in lab are the ones who are going to honor it, and I neither have the will power nor ability to do that, i dunno maybe its the smell that turns me off.

But what I found helpful, is to first of all f--- trying to learn the lecture before lab. Its hard to know what the heck they are talking about before seeing it. But before lab I usually try to get through the dissector CD twice, along with my Rohen, or if I need a more conceptual view I use netter. Rohen wasn't too nice this block b/c everthing was so small.

Also, while I'm in lab I usually have one of the prosecting groups go through the lab once before I start, then I dissect (or rather my group members dissect as I suck at it), but I stay pretty focused while we're going through it. And then after dissection is finished I have a different prosecting group go through it again one more time.

After that, the lectures make a whole lot more sense since you've seen the actual structures.

Don't drop out, there are only 4 or so of us active on SDN. And also, if you drop out then THEY WIN!!! haha j/k... If it makes you feel any better there are alot of other people struggling too (me), as for all the other kids that finish every exam in under 20 mins though....
 
I don't know about the kids living in the labs and their honoring. I've talked to some of the lab rats, and from the sound of it, some of them quite frankly bombed the lab practical and the written test.

That's not to fault them at all. I'm just saying that different people have different learning styles.

Honestly, the way we ripped through everything this last block, I don't think lab work would have been at all conducive to our written test. How on earth are you supposed to study relationships when you've axed your heart, lungs, intestines out of your body?

I'm struggling with anatomy, too, right now. I found that drawing things out and then just going through the BRS grid book and writing everything down into note sets helped. I'm not going to be top of my class in anatomy, but I am passing now.

Good luck!
 
Hey getunconscious..hang in there! What I found helped me do better this block was simply staring at the Netter the night before each lab (Rohen's grosses me out). It made me feel less clueless. And if you're not getting much out of lab, just spend the time visiting the prosection groups. Then, at the end of the lab, go through the summary terms, make sure you at least have an idea of where *every* one of them is. Then get the hell out of there.

I personally crammed for the written the weekend before, so I don't have much advice there. Oh, and I totally didn't pass this last devo test, so believe me, we're all struggling with something!
 
I've been realizing that everyone at my school seems to have a little different way of learning the material. The thing that held me back initially is that I was wasting too much time. My studying was not "high-yield" enough. I have now stopped reading our textbook (Essential Clinical Anatomy by Moore, the worst textbook I've ever seen), which has given me a lot more time to study and actually learn pertainant material. Others in my class swear by reading the textbook.
 
logos said:
I've been realizing that everyone at my school seems to have a little different way of learning the material. The thing that held me back initially is that I was wasting too much time. My studying was not "high-yield" enough. I have now stopped reading our textbook (Essential Clinical Anatomy by Moore, the worst textbook I've ever seen), which has given me a lot more time to study and actually learn pertainant material. Others in my class swear by reading the textbook.

I love Big Moore (Clinically-Oriented Anatomy), but hated Baby Moore (Essential Clinical Anatomy). Baby Moore is unreadable in my opinion. Yeah, they abridged it, but that took away readability.
 
Rendar5 said:
I love Big Moore (Clinically-Oriented Anatomy), but hated Baby Moore (Essential Clinical Anatomy). Baby Moore is unreadable in my opinion. Yeah, they abridged it, but that took away readability.


Hmmm, I love essentials, find it very readable, and it is way more concise that that huge moore/dalley referance book. Of course, if you don't already know the structural anatomy before reading it would probably be too condensed, but if you have been keeping up in nicely summarizes all anatomy/clinical relevance in one spot.
 
The BRS book works great for me, but that's probably because our course director wrote it, so the questions are pretty similar. I've found that my most effective study comes by going through the BRS along with Netter's. There are very few illustrations in the BRS book, but obviously no text in Netter's, so the combination of the two works together nicely. I personally spend almost no time in the lab until I feel that I already know everything pretty well. That way I don't waste time wondering "what the heck is this thing?" I've managed to do pretty well with this technique so far, but the most important thing is to find what works for you.
 
Alexander Pink said:
Hmmm, I love essentials, find it very readable, and it is way more concise that that huge moore/dalley referance book. Of course, if you don't already know the structural anatomy before reading it would probably be too condensed, but if you have been keeping up in nicely summarizes all anatomy/clinical relevance in one spot.

well, my school's pretty evenly split on that one. You either like one or the other.
 
UTMikie--I'm not planning on dropping out for now. If I marginal pass, or god forbid, fail, I will suck it up and remediate the stupid course, although I'd hate to do that since 1) It looks bad and 2) It would involve MORE gross anatomy. I want nothing more than to be done with that class for good in December.

Odd--I guess you are right about everyone having their own private hell with at least one class. It would be so much easier if we could each pick a 'wall class' to do away with :laugh: Personally, I thought devo was a breeze and honored it, but I bombed the holy hell out of gross. But honestly, I would rather just have mediocre pass grades in both b/c failing stuff is scary 😱

I totally agree with those who say that Essential Clinical Anatomy isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I read the relevant pages before every lecture and it didn't help me in the least.

I think I really need to increase my work ethic in the lab. I really really hate the lab and never pay much attention during dissection, instead trying to cram it all in on a few weekends or learn it from Rohen's. I think I will start reading and re-reading the labs beforehand and like you guys said learn where stuff is in the atlases before dissection. My grade split 70 written and 50 (!) practical, so obviously the lab is my real problem here. Dead bodies suck, but best to suck it up now I think than have to remediate the course and spend the summer with dead bodies too (shoot me!)

Again thanks to everyone for your help. I figure that at least there's nowhere to go from here but up! 🙄
 
This is what has worked very well for me...

The night before lab, go through the dissector and write down the first item that you have to identify on looseleaf paper. Then go through Netter and find the best picture of it that resembles the view you will see in class and write down the page number next to the item on your looseleaf and highlight it in the book. Following the name, I write a brief description of where the item is (ie the tendon of the obturator internus is between the sup/inf gamelli muscles) in my own words. Continue doing this one at a time for the entire dissection and you will end up with not only a great foundation for the next days lab, but also a great study guide for later. I thought the part of having each items spacial location described in my own words especially helped. Bringing this sheet you made to lab the next day is also very helpful, and makes the locating of items much easier during the dissection.

By keeping this up before every assigned lab and reviewing in between on my own, I was able to spend minimal time in the lab (usually a few hours on the weekend).

As far as learning the material for the written tests, I made a chart of every innervation/bloodsupply/attachment/function and added to it with each dissection. Knowing all of the above material and adding to it the clinical aspects of it that you get in lecture, has made Anatomy relatively easy for me.

As you can see, its all about putting in the time/work and studying efficiently. I would suggest trying some of the methods that I wrote or that were described in above posts, and keep what works best for you. However, I can assure you that cramming in a few hours on the weekends will not get the job done. Also, when you're in lab, make use of the time and make sure that you can find everything you should. Good luck.

p.s. - as far as books- the only one that I have touched is Chungs BRS. The few times that I needed things to be clarified somewhat I pulled out Big Moore, but otherwise the BRS was fine.

p.p.s. I'm just a little D.O., so what do I know....jk jk jk....
 
Taus said:
This is what has worked very well for me...

The night before lab, go through the dissector and write down the first item that you have to identify on looseleaf paper. Then go through Netter and find the best picture of it that resembles the view you will see in class and write down the page number next to the item on your looseleaf and highlight it in the book. Following the name, I write a brief description of where the item is (ie the tendon of the obturator internus is between the sup/inf gamelli muscles) in my own words. Continue doing this one at a time for the entire dissection and you will end up with not only a great foundation for the next days lab, but also a great study guide for later. I thought the part of having each items spacial location described in my own words especially helped. Bringing this sheet you made to lab the next day is also very helpful, and makes the locating of items much easier during the dissection.

By keeping this up before every assigned lab and reviewing in between on my own, I was able to spend minimal time in the lab (usually a few hours on the weekend).

As far as learning the material for the written tests, I made a chart of every innervation/bloodsupply/attachment/function and added to it with each dissection. Knowing all of the above material and adding to it the clinical aspects of it that you get in lecture, has made Anatomy relatively easy for me.

As you can see, its all about putting in the time/work and studying efficiently. I would suggest trying some of the methods that I wrote or that were described in above posts, and keep what works best for you. However, I can assure you that cramming in a few hours on the weekends will not get the job done. Also, when you're in lab, make use of the time and make sure that you can find everything you should. Good luck.

p.s. - as far as books- the only one that I have touched is Chungs BRS. The few times that I needed things to be clarified somewhat I pulled out Big Moore, but otherwise the BRS was fine.

p.p.s. I'm just a little D.O., so what do I know....jk jk jk....


Taus, thanks for the advice, that sounds like a good plan of action. I am now painfully aware that a few hours on the weekends doesn't cut it :laugh:

I like Chung's BRS too, now if only I could get more than half of the review questions right... :idea:
 
getunconcsious said:
Taus, thanks for the advice, that sounds like a good plan of action. I am now painfully aware that a few hours on the weekends doesn't cut it :laugh:

I like Chung's BRS too, now if only I could get more than half of the review questions right... :idea:

Just in case anybody was wondering, Chung is one awesome dude. He told us in class a couple weeks ago that he knows "ancient martial arts" and can make cross sections with a single karate chop. He also said he could break our legs with his pinkie finger - good stuff... :laugh:
 
Patrick!

I'm sorry to hear that, man... I've found that the best thing for me is to meet with my anatomy group the night before every anatomy lab to go over the lab for the following day -- we each split up the labs and "teach" the material to our other lab partners, that way we each only have a couple of pages to learn before the meeting, so we can each know that part of the anatomy very well... if that doesn't work for you, then I'd suggest just studying your heart out of Netter for a bit, then trying your best to draw the arterial/venous branchings, muscles, viscera each night after lab when the material is fresh on your mind. That's what I've done thus far and it's been working out for me (of course, I say that despite the fact that my final in anatomy isn't until tomorrow!) Best of luck -- and call me sometime (after tomorrow)!!!! =)

~Matt~
 
Rendar5 said:
I love Big Moore (Clinically-Oriented Anatomy), but hated Baby Moore (Essential Clinical Anatomy). Baby Moore is unreadable in my opinion. Yeah, they abridged it, but that took away readability.

:laugh: I hated both Moore's! I literally bought like 7 anatomy books this year- (plus Netter flashcards-which I don't recommend except for UL and LL muscles and the back and thorax unit) Netter, Rohen, big and little moore, 2 medical dictionaries, and finally I settled on Drake's (Gray's) anatomy-which is great-I love it. I use that and Netter ( a little). But mainly I spend time in the lab-because I hate being lectured to.

ADVICE-this is what I do-I find someone who knows what they are doing in anatomy lab-otherwise I feel completely lost-and never really know if what I'm looking at is the right thing.

It really comes down to being proactive-don't just let your boredom of anatomy takeover-find someone who can show you things in lab.
For us-lab practicals are worth more-which is good-because I cannot stand studying for lecture-there is nothing more boring than reading "the ilioinguinal ligament runs superior-lateral to inferior-medial and is anterior to the the blah blah blah..."
So my strategy is to spend lots of time in lab and just get by in lecture-so it averages out to a low A or high B.
 
If it makes you feel any better, I'll probably be retaking anatomy, as well. I passed my last practical and written exam, but not by nearly enough to make up for my last practical.

I think you have to know how your professors put their exams together and study accordingly. Honestly, I felt like I really knew my stuff going into the last exam. I had outlined the entire BRS book, had been going to the lab for 4-5 hours every weekend, was scoring about 90% on Chung's questions... I barely passed.

I don't get anatomy. I hate this class, I want it gone, and it's bringing down my grades in my other classes.

Some of this stuff, it seems, you just have to bulk memorize. Things like memorizing the borders of the lesser omentum or the layers of fascia that make up the inguinal canals diminension...they're crap. You'll never remember it. But they love testing it, so you better know it.

Not that I'm in any position to give advice. I've got to score an 86 on my next exam/practical to make it out of this class.

I've never wanted a C so bad or worked so hard for it. Doesn't seem likely, but I have to try, right?
 
freaker said:
If it makes you feel any better, I'll probably be retaking anatomy, as well. I passed my last practical and written exam, but not by nearly enough to make up for my last practical.

I think you have to know how your professors put their exams together and study accordingly. Honestly, I felt like I really knew my stuff going into the last exam. I had outlined the entire BRS book, had been going to the lab for 4-5 hours every weekend, was scoring about 90% on Chung's questions... I barely passed.

I don't get anatomy. I hate this class, I want it gone, and it's bringing down my grades in my other classes.

Some of this stuff, it seems, you just have to bulk memorize. Things like memorizing the borders of the lesser omentum or the layers of fascia that make up the inguinal canals diminension...they're crap. You'll never remember it. But they love testing it, so you better know it.

Not that I'm in any position to give advice. I've got to score an 86 on my next exam/practical to make it out of this class.

I've never wanted a C so bad or worked so hard for it. Doesn't seem likely, but I have to try, right?

I find the BRS book to be great preparation for the anatomy exams. Then again, Chung is our course director, so he writes the tests.
 
A lot of people in my class swear by Clemente's atlas. It has a little summary paragraph at the bottom of every page and the drawings are less cartoonish than Netter's.
 
Dr Turninkoff said:
For the practicals, I watch the anatomy dissector videos several times. My school's are password protected, but michigan's aren't, and they are better.

http://anatomy.med.umich.edu/courseinfo/video_index.html


This was totally a life saver for me. Brilliant! I always hovered about 65 for the written exam but I would usually do about an 80 or so on the practical. Voila! that is a solid 75 average (give or take). But let me tell you, those written exams were terrifying, I could hardly understand what they were asking and felt like I was just qeussing for all 50 questions.

I hated anatomy too, and I agree with what people are saying. Try everything!! see what words for you. Also, just sit down and get yourself through the material even tho you can't stand it. Fear was a good motivator for me, and still is in certain classes (like neuroanatomy). I don't want to fail a class so that is my incentive to boil up another tank of coffee and sit down and write/draw/memorize or whatever but get that dang material into my little brain.

You can do it 👍
 
njbmd said:
Hi there,
First of all, if you fail the class, there has to be some remediation even if it is taking a summer course. Second, go to the instructor and lay everything out. go to your Dean of Academics and have a talk. The important thing is don't wait until the next exam is upon you, go right now and explain your situation.

Medical school is like boot camp in that you have to go over the wall. Your wall is Gross Anatomy. Hang with people in your class that are passing and get some help. See if you can find an upperclassman that is willing to lend a hand. Is there some kind of peer tutoring center at your school? If so, go and keep going until you figure out what you need. The best way to really learn Anatomy is to help someone who is not doing well. I am sure that some of your colleagues would lend a hand if asked. Be humble, eat crow but pass that class.

You do NOT need to drop out of school, you need to figure out what you have to do to pass even if it means coming back during the summer. There are people who fail Gross Anatomy and go on to make excellent physicians (probably not surgeons) but excellent physicians nevertheless. Don't beat up on yourself but take some drastic action. Think of it this way: "What would you do if your patient was dying?" You would do anything and everything that you could do to save your patient's life. There may be some very small thing that can get you on the right track. Search for it in any way that you can.

njbmd 🙁


While I'm sure you meant this as helpful, I'm just wondering (from your comment about people who fail anatomy becoming good doctors but not surgeons) if failing anatomy really can close doors like that. I'm waiting for my final anatomy grades, but if I fail, should I give up on being a surgeon now?...because if there's no surgery program that will take someone who had to retake the test, I feel like I might as well drop out now. I know that sounds overdramatic, but I would rather shoot myself in the foot than be an GP or pediatrician or something like that. Can one class really f*** up a career?
 
mules05 said:
While I'm sure you meant this as helpful, I'm just wondering (from your comment about people who fail anatomy becoming good doctors but not surgeons) if failing anatomy really can close doors like that. I'm waiting for my final anatomy grades, but if I fail, should I give up on being a surgeon now?...because if there's no surgery program that will take someone who had to retake the test, I feel like I might as well drop out now. I know that sounds overdramatic, but I would rather shoot myself in the foot than be an GP or pediatrician or something like that. Can one class really f*** up a career?

I'm not sure how u can become a good surgeon w/o being good at anatomy, to be honest. But do you have an issue with becoming a generalist or with becoming a non-surgeon? There are so many non-surgical specialties if u don't want generalist fields like IM,FP, Peds, or EM
 
Rendar5 said:
I'm not sure how u can become a good surgeon w/o being good at anatomy, to be honest. But do you have an issue with becoming a generalist or with becoming a non-surgeon? There are so many non-surgical specialties if u don't want generalist fields like IM,FP, Peds, or EM

I could deal with EM if that was the only thing that would take me, but to be honest, I like to cut things. I like blood. I hate this touchy-feely bull****. I want to be in a high-intensity, high-testosterone environment (I also like the thought of playing with power tools in ortho). I feel like most physical problems are probably better fixed by going in and actually fixing things than by giving people tons of drugs that are going to have a million and one side effects that they'll need drugs for later.

Here's the thing with anatomy though...if I fail (which is possible, but not certain at this point) it'll be because of my first exam scores, which I failed not because I didn't understand the concepts or know the anatomy (well, I didn't at that point, but I do now)...it was because I didn't know how to study and honestly didn't understand the level of detail I was expected to know. If I do fail, but then pass the summer exam and kick a** on the boards and in my surgery and IM rotations, will any surgery programs consider me? I'm pretty sure I want to do surgery or a surgical subspecialty to the point that if I didn't match, I would do research and reapply for residencies rather than doing spend my life removing foreign objects from children's noses.
 
mules05 said:
I could deal with EM if that was the only thing that would take me, but to be honest, I like to cut things. I like blood. I hate this touchy-feely bull****. I want to be in a high-intensity, high-testosterone environment (I also like the thought of playing with power tools in ortho). I feel like most physical problems are probably better fixed by going in and actually fixing things than by giving people tons of drugs that are going to have a million and one side effects that they'll need drugs for later.

Here's the thing with anatomy though...if I fail (which is possible, but not certain at this point) it'll be because of my first exam scores, which I failed not because I didn't understand the concepts or know the anatomy (well, I didn't at that point, but I do now)...it was because I didn't know how to study and honestly didn't understand the level of detail I was expected to know. If I do fail, but then pass the summer exam and kick a** on the boards and in my surgery and IM rotations, will any surgery programs consider me? I'm pretty sure I want to do surgery or a surgical subspecialty to the point that if I didn't match, I would do research and reapply for residencies rather than doing spend my life removing foreign objects from children's noses.

Honestly I think you will be A ok, so long as you don't make any more blunders. I am sure that most programs will understand your struggle with anatomy in the beginning. After all not all who do well in anatomy will make good surgeons. Or if you do poorly on Step I, but you honored anatomy, that won' t look too good. But so long as you do well, and show yourself on surgery rotation, truthfully I don't think that grade is gonna matter most. Now if you are trying to get into ENT, maybe ortho, plastics or urology, unless you have stellar grades overall, it will hurt you. General sugery, you shouldn't have too much difficulty so long as you perform well on boards, your rotations and so forth. Good luck man.
 
The thing with Anatomy is, I think you have to learn it twice. Everyone in my class who had taken even a bit before breezed through our course (or seemed to), because even having some basic concepts down from the beginning (including how to study it) makes it so much easier to pile a bunch of detail on top the second time around.

I (having never taken Anatomy before) ended up doing my second round of learning right before our final. The second time I looked through a list of (for example) muscles of the upper limb, I was all "Bam! Anterior forearm flexors! You have a common insertion on the medial epicondyle!", whereas the first time I heard that I didn't understand the significance, or why I should care, or how knowing that would help me out.

Learn it once (even superficially) by going to labs, sitting through lectures, flipping through Netter. Then try to find time to go back a bit later on, and figure out a way of organizing it in your head that makes sense to you.

Also, focus on integrating things that aren't well-integrated in lab. For example, list all muscles of the upper limb that you need to know, then list all the nerves, veins, and arteries, and spend a bit of time putting it all together with the help of a textbook. Afterwards, quiz yourself by trying to identify things in Netter or Rohen (or lab).
 
mules05 said:
While I'm sure you meant this as helpful, I'm just wondering (from your comment about people who fail anatomy becoming good doctors but not surgeons) if failing anatomy really can close doors like that. I'm waiting for my final anatomy grades, but if I fail, should I give up on being a surgeon now?...because if there's no surgery program that will take someone who had to retake the test, I feel like I might as well drop out now. I know that sounds overdramatic, but I would rather shoot myself in the foot than be an GP or pediatrician or something like that. Can one class really f*** up a career?

Hi there,
I do not know of any General Surgery resident who failed Gross Anatomy. There may be some somewhere in the country but I just do not know of any and I know loads of surgical residents. You have to know anatomy pretty well in order do surgery. All of the people in my class who went into General Surgery (myself included), did pretty well in Gross Anatomy. If you want to do surgery, pass anatomy.

njbmd 🙂
 
If you want to turn it around you need to find something that you like about. If you have a better attitude about it you may be more willing to study more for it instead of avoiding it. (I had the same aversion to Neuro.)

You definitely will have to spend time in the lab. Bring your Netter's in there with you.

For studying I just memorized everything in the Rapid Review Anatomy book. It helps that Dr. Moore and Dr. Roy were our course directors, so that may have biased the book somewhat, but it sure helped me dominate the shelf exam on Anatomy.

I used big Moore/Dalley as a reference and learned the Blue Box Clinical things well.

Dude, just so you know, it is possible to save your grade in Anatomy. You can still pass it. I had friends that were in your shape and pulled it up at the end. BUST YOUR BUTT.
 
njbmd said:
Hi there,
I do not know of any General Surgery resident who failed Gross Anatomy. There may be some somewhere in the country but I just do not know of any and I know loads of surgical residents. You have to know anatomy pretty well in order do surgery. All of the people in my class who went into General Surgery (myself included), did pretty well in Gross Anatomy. If you want to do surgery, pass anatomy.

njbmd 🙂


LOL I have no desire to be a surgeon, I'm just trying to get through anatomy.
 
njbmd said:
Hi there,
I do not know of any General Surgery resident who failed Gross Anatomy. There may be some somewhere in the country but I just do not know of any and I know loads of surgical residents. You have to know anatomy pretty well in order do surgery. All of the people in my class who went into General Surgery (myself included), did pretty well in Gross Anatomy. If you want to do surgery, pass anatomy.

njbmd 🙂

Well, at this point it's not a question of anything I can do, I'm just waiting for final grades to come out. But thanks, that was real encouraging. It's good to know that my career may be shot to hell because of one or two questions on one exam.
 
mules05 said:
Well, at this point it's not a question of anything I can do, I'm just waiting for final grades to come out. But thanks, that was real encouraging. It's good to know that my career may be shot to hell because of one or two questions on one exam.

Unless your Gross class had only one exam with four questions on it, I highly doubt "one or two" questions made you (potentially) fail the class. One of the biggest things to do when rebounding from a failure like this is to evaluate yourself and figure out what you could have done better to avoid such mishaps in the future. It seems to me that you haven't even thought about what you did to earn a borderline or failing grade yet, and I highly doubt without such self-evaluation that you will spank all of your other classes and clerkships and woo those surgery residencies.

As my homeboy Dr. Phil likes to say, "Let's get real, people."
 
DoctorFunk said:
Unless your Gross class had only one exam with four questions on it, I highly doubt "one or two" questions made you (potentially) fail the class. One of the biggest things to do when rebounding from a failure like this is to evaluate yourself and figure out what you could have done better to avoid such mishaps in the future. It seems to me that you haven't even thought about what you did to earn a borderline or failing grade yet, and I highly doubt without such self-evaluation that you will spank all of your other classes and clerkships and woo those surgery residencies.

As my homeboy Dr. Phil likes to say, "Let's get real, people."

I know exactly what I did to fail the first exam. I didn't know how to study, because I didn't really need to study in college to get As. I also hugely underestimated the level of detail we were expected to know. That changed for the last 2 exams, but it's tough to come back from something like that. At this point it's a question of whether I got a few questions right or wrong on the practical that will decide whether I pass or fail- that's all I meant by that, not that the entire reason I'm borderline now is a couple questions. Now that we're on to biochem, I'll be fine...biochem loves me.
 
mules05 said:
Well, at this point it's not a question of anything I can do, I'm just waiting for final grades to come out. But thanks, that was real encouraging. It's good to know that my career may be shot to hell because of one or two questions on one exam.

Huh? Surgery suxxorz! You mean, people want to do surgery? Like, as in gross anatomy didn't deter them? I'm confused... 😕 80-hour work weeks, the sight of blood, the smell of the cautery unit...people WANT this for themselves?
 
mules05 said:
I know exactly what I did to fail the first exam. I didn't know how to study, because I didn't really need to study in college to get As. I also hugely underestimated the level of detail we were expected to know. That changed for the last 2 exams, but it's tough to come back from something like that. At this point it's a question of whether I got a few questions right or wrong on the practical that will decide whether I pass or fail- that's all I meant by that, not that the entire reason I'm borderline now is a couple questions. Now that we're on to biochem, I'll be fine...biochem loves me.


Dude, just try to pass...the semester isn't over, I mean hell if I'M not throwing in the towel yet, then no one should be! 🙄 :laugh:
 
getunconcsious said:
Dude, just try to pass...the semester isn't over, I mean hell if I'M not throwing in the towel yet, then no one should be! 🙄 :laugh:

Eh, the semester IS over...I was just trying to get some reassurance just in case I was disappointed when the grades came back. I still find it hard to believe that one class can make or break a career. I remember believing that in high school when I though I was going to get a B- in calculus and therefore my life would be ruinined, but that seems a bit overdramatic now. I don't really have any idea what people are going to look for in residency applications and such though, so maybe one class does make all the difference...
 
mules05 said:
Eh, the semester IS over...I was just trying to get some reassurance just in case I was disappointed when the grades came back. I still find it hard to believe that one class can make or break a career. I remember believing that in high school when I though I was going to get a B- in calculus and therefore my life would be ruinined, but that seems a bit overdramatic now. I don't really have any idea what people are going to look for in residency applications and such though, so maybe one class does make all the difference...

It's not a matter of the class grade, honestly. If you sucked in teh class, but still are able to learn anatomy really well by the time u're doing surgeries, then u're fine. But if u didn't do well in anatomy because you honestly suck at all the details of anatomy and won't be able to get any better when u're in residency, then you won't be a very good surgeon at all.
 
Rendar5 said:
It's not a matter of the class grade, honestly. If you sucked in teh class, but still are able to learn anatomy really well by the time u're doing surgeries, then u're fine. But if u didn't do well in anatomy because you honestly suck at all the details of anatomy and won't be able to get any better when u're in residency, then you won't be a very good surgeon at all.

I only really sucked on the first exam....I'm just wondering if I end up with the "pass by reexamination" on the transcript, even with stellar clinical grades, if that one thing will keep me from getting interviews for surgery programs.
 
getunconcsious said:
Dude, just try to pass...the semester isn't over, I mean hell if I'M not throwing in the towel yet, then no one should be! 🙄 :laugh:

I should probably be studying Histo or something now, but since I am looking for every reason not to (including watching America's Top Model at 7pm - yes, you should be embarassed for me), I will try and offer some study tips.

First of all, this block just plain sucked. One week w/o prosectors, the next week w/o pedagogues, and Hurrican Rita really f***ed us up. Everyone did worse this block and you are not the only one that failed so don't beat yourself up. When I feel bad, I like to shift the blame to other people, like the faculty for example. I was told by a pedagogue (who told me not to tell anyone this..haha) that the 2nd exam was made harder b/c exam scores were too high for Block I. So apparently we are being punished for being a smart class. That makes sense, right?

My recommendation: for the written exam, I rewrite the notes. It takes time, but I cannot memorize crap from text that has 3 words on each line. I make my notes as an outline w/ Roman numerals and such and use bullet points. It helps me memorize better seeing one fact per line.

For the practical, I suggest doing somewhere between a half-ass to decent job throughout the block and then going in for a 4-8 hour study session w/ Dr. Zhang and friends on the weekend. He tells you everything (just about) that you need to know and sometimes things you don't need to bother memorizing. I do this twice a block (at the half way mark and before the test) and I think it is helpful. Looking at prosecting groups (as many as possible) is good also - since parts are more likely to be tagged off a prosected cadaver than just off a random cadaver.

Hope everything works out for you. I know you said you are not dropping out and that is good, b/c we do not need anymore people dropping out. One of my tankmates is gone and I am hearing mumbles of other people thinking of dropping. It is sad.
 
Stitch626 said:
I should probably be studying Histo or something now, but since I am looking for every reason not to (including watching America's Top Model at 7pm - yes, you should be embarassed for me), I will try and offer some study tips.

First of all, this block just plain sucked. One week w/o prosectors, the next week w/o pedagogues, and Hurrican Rita really f***ed us up. Everyone did worse this block and you are not the only one that failed so don't beat yourself up. When I feel bad, I like to shift the blame to other people, like the faculty for example. I was told by a pedagogue (who told me not to tell anyone this..haha) that the 2nd exam was made harder b/c exam scores were too high for Block I. So apparently we are being punished for being a smart class. That makes sense, right?

My recommendation: for the written exam, I rewrite the notes. It takes time, but I cannot memorize crap from text that has 3 words on each line. I make my notes as an outline w/ Roman numerals and such and use bullet points. It helps me memorize better seeing one fact per line.

For the practical, I suggest doing somewhere between a half-ass to decent job throughout the block and then going in for a 4-8 hour study session w/ Dr. Zhang and friends on the weekend. He tells you everything (just about) that you need to know and sometimes things you don't need to bother memorizing. I do this twice a block (at the half way mark and before the test) and I think it is helpful. Looking at prosecting groups (as many as possible) is good also - since parts are more likely to be tagged off a prosected cadaver than just off a random cadaver.

Hope everything works out for you. I know you said you are not dropping out and that is good, b/c we do not need anymore people dropping out. One of my tankmates is gone and I am hearing mumbles of other people thinking of dropping. It is sad.


I have had an extremely successful surgeon tell me you don't really learn dick about the human body from anatomy because everything is so different on a living person. Get the basics and the real learning happens in your surgical rotations I've heard. I would never think that your whole future in surgery hangs on you first year anatomy grade. Like most things in life, very little depends on one grade, one test etc. Life is cumulative. My guess is that the boards and clinical years are much more important than the first year lecture grades. I live by Chungs BRS book. Some Netter, no Moore, no Grant's disector, very little school note service and no other texts. Reading doesn't help me in anatomy at all. If I go to lab and learn the relationships on the body I can answer written questions quite well because I know how things work. For me that is the key, if you know how things work you have solved 70% of all your questions.
 
Stitch626 said:
I should probably be studying Histo or something now, but since I am looking for every reason not to (including watching America's Top Model at 7pm - yes, you should be embarassed for me), I will try and offer some study tips.

First of all, this block just plain sucked. One week w/o prosectors, the next week w/o pedagogues, and Hurrican Rita really f***ed us up. Everyone did worse this block and you are not the only one that failed so don't beat yourself up. When I feel bad, I like to shift the blame to other people, like the faculty for example. I was told by a pedagogue (who told me not to tell anyone this..haha) that the 2nd exam was made harder b/c exam scores were too high for Block I. So apparently we are being punished for being a smart class. That makes sense, right?

My recommendation: for the written exam, I rewrite the notes. It takes time, but I cannot memorize crap from text that has 3 words on each line. I make my notes as an outline w/ Roman numerals and such and use bullet points. It helps me memorize better seeing one fact per line.

For the practical, I suggest doing somewhere between a half-ass to decent job throughout the block and then going in for a 4-8 hour study session w/ Dr. Zhang and friends on the weekend. He tells you everything (just about) that you need to know and sometimes things you don't need to bother memorizing. I do this twice a block (at the half way mark and before the test) and I think it is helpful. Looking at prosecting groups (as many as possible) is good also - since parts are more likely to be tagged off a prosected cadaver than just off a random cadaver.

Hope everything works out for you. I know you said you are not dropping out and that is good, b/c we do not need anymore people dropping out. One of my tankmates is gone and I am hearing mumbles of other people thinking of dropping. It is sad.


Yeah it's true that hurricane rita totally screwed us. I heard that a lot more people than usual have dropped out of our class. I would like to avoid dropping out, but sometimes I feel so stupid...ugh. I think I can do this if I just stick it out. I talked to Dr. Rogers and she really gave me a good pep talk about how I can get through it. I think so far that this block is easier. I remember walking into an anatomy block 2 lecture after rita and being like, "What the F*CK is going on?" It's definitely nice not to feel like that.

Anyways, I think I know who you are 😉 You should come say hi sometime...
 
I'm the poster child of what not to do in anatomy. I never went to lab and didn't read Moore or use any cadaver atlases. Just Netter. My strategy was cramming 1-2 days before an exam. Not ideal but it worked. And it's not like anatomy is easy at my school per se... people did read Moore and went to lab were failing. I just think at some point it becomes like anything else... you can either do some of everything, or do just one thing and do it well. Netter was my best friend and it's basically all I used, in combination with the lecture slides which clued me in on what plates to focus on. I guess I was just lucky to stumble on the method that worked for me right away, and not have to try many different ways. Believe me, I'm not that bright. I am lucky occasionally though. :laugh:
 
OmahaMX80 said:
I'm the poster child of what not to do in anatomy. I never went to lab and didn't read Moore or use any cadaver atlases. Just Netter. My strategy was cramming 1-2 days before an exam. Not ideal but it worked. And it's not like anatomy is easy at my school per se... people did read Moore and went to lab were failing. I just think at some point it becomes like anything else... you can either do some of everything, or do just one thing and do it well. Netter was my best friend and it's basically all I used, in combination with the lecture slides which clued me in on what plates to focus on. I guess I was just lucky to stumble on the method that worked for me right away, and not have to try many different ways. Believe me, I'm not that bright. I am lucky occasionally though. :laugh:

it's always better to be lucky than good

anatomy sucks - it's so freakin boring

OP - i feel your pain !
 
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