on support from physicians...

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AmericanIMG

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why is it that many older medical students/physicians tend to discourage pre-meds and MS1s? i was reading a post from Fashionista in which she told a story of her ENT cousin discouraging her from being an MD, even though Fashionista had been a good student. i have seen this happen a more then a few times, and i have to say that i am disgusted by it. these young students are scared and nervous, and the last thing that they need is to be told its not worth it or that they can't make it or that they maybe shouldn't be wasting their time. now don't get me wrong, i am not saying that people shouldn't be just saying every tom, dick and harry should go into medicine, but the jaded, unhappy physicians should just be quiet rather then discourage others.
 
So you are saying they should lie to bright eyed premeds instead of telling them their honest opinion?
 
I think it's useful for students to have realistic expectations about medicine. Saying "I'm not sure I would go through this hassel again" is very different from saying "I don't think you personally are cut out for medicine."

And being an EMT and an MD are completely different things (I am one of the former and in a few years will be the latter).

Edit: Sorry, completely misread ENT . . . silly shorthand.
 
no, i am saying that the people who are unhappy shouldn't project their misgivings on students. they should be honest and say hey, this was my experience, and this is other people's experiences. many times i simply see people say oh its terrible if i could go back i wouldn't, it is not worth it etc.
 
Saying "I'm not sure I would go through this hassel again" is very different from saying "I don't think you personally are cut out for medicine."

yes exactly, rather then specifically discouraging a student and putting them down, honest opinions should be given, both the good and the bad.

students just starting tend to be (IMO) insecure and overwhelmed, and need encouragement more then discouragement.

also the cousin was an ENT.
 
I think it's useful for students to have realistic expectations about medicine. Saying "I'm not sure I would go through this hassel again" is very different from saying "I don't think you personally are cut out for medicine.".

Agree with this. 9 times out of 10, premeds have a different view of what their medical career will be like than reality. Far too many threads on SDN earnestly dream of Bentleys and Mansions and 40 hour work weeks. Wake-up calls are needed.

And really, if a premed's confidence in his/her decision was so weak that it can be shaken by someone elses comments, then s/he wasn't ready to make a $200k cost career decision in the first place. Best to only go into medicine when you are really sure, and have all the facts.
 
Agree with this. 9 times out of 10, premeds have a different view of what their medical career will be like than reality. Far too many threads on SDN earnestly dream of Bentleys and Mansions and 40 hour work weeks. Wake-up calls are needed.

And really, if a premed's confidence in his/her decision was so weak that it can be shaken by someone elses comments, then s/he wasn't ready to make a $200k cost career decision in the first place. Best to only go into medicine when you are really sure, and have all the facts.

WHAT?!?! No Bentley?

I quit...
 
Agree with this. 9 times out of 10, premeds have a different view of what their medical career will be like than reality. Far too many threads on SDN earnestly dream of Bentleys and Mansions and 40 hour work weeks. Wake-up calls are needed.

And really, if a premed's confidence in his/her decision was so weak that it can be shaken by someone elses comments, then s/he wasn't ready to make a $200k cost career decision in the first place. Best to only go into medicine when you are really sure, and have all the facts.

I agree with this poster... I was told some pretty horrible things about medicine (I'm sure most of them were even true), but I was so passionate about wanting it that it didn't deter me. I think that's true of most of us... if you're the type that gets scared off by hearing the TRUTH about the hours, medicare reimbursements, the paperwork, the lawsuits, etc., then you should probably clear the way for someone who can handle it.

Is it better to lie and say being a doctor is all sunshine and daisies, and have them find out the truth third year and realize that they're going to be miserable for the rest of their lives? You have to have a realistic expectation of what it's going to be like, and no one can give you that realistic idea except people that have been through it. Otherwise you're going to think it's like ER or House, and boy won't you be in for a rude awakening (after you're thousands/fractions of millions of of dollars in debt).
 
Looking back, I can't really remember why I wanted to go to Med school. No relatives were in healthcare, I didn't have any specific experiences. I attributed it mostly to a couple of primary care docs that I just really respected. When I told one of them I was going to be a doctor, he would claim that if he could do it over again he would have tried something else. Medicine isn't what it used to be, etc. I didn't understand this.

When I started working in the OR (before med school), the anesthesiologists would say the same..."do something else, there's no money left in medicine". To put their views in perspective, several of them were selling their vacation homes in Aspen, etc., because their salaries were being decreased to somewhere south of $500,000. Hmmm...maybe I should have reconsidered. 😉

Long story short, Now that I am about to graduate from medical school, the same family friend who once discouraged me from becoming a doctor is now extremely proud of me for my decision, and sincerely wants to attend my graduation. He's also happier in his own practice, now spending a good portion of his time seeing patients at home and teaching at a med school. I'm glad he was honest with me years ago, because it truly made me think about why I really wanted to become a physician. Was it just because I looked up to him? I found that there was something truly rewarding about the field.

I think when we receive advice like this it's sometimes difficult to swallow. I think I remember the Fashionista thread the OP refers to, and it was some pretty harsh advice from her cousin, probably linked to jealousy. Either way, if your convictions are strong enough, you should be able to withstand these comments and do what is right for you.
 
i don't mean giving the premeds the idea that medicine is perfect etc. i am talking about the people that project upon students their jaded feelings and telling them half truths.

honesty is what the students need, not discouragement. whenever i speak with a premed or a MS-1 i always tell them that it is a very difficult journey but in the end its a great lifestyle, great job security and worth the sacrifices.
 
I told my PCP about my interests in becoming a doctor and he flat out says "Go into dentistry". 😕

How's that for discouraging :laugh:
 
I think some dose of reality is necessary but it can become too much sometimes. It was funny when my PIs would come out of a pt room on a chaotic clinic day and say "and you're sure you want to do this??" but I've had experiences when I thought it was too much negativity. Like two weeks before medschool when I had an emergency apendectomy and every single medstudent and resident I encountered told me some variant of "its not to late to quit" . . . or "turn back now" when the found out I was starting medschool in a few weeks. After a while it got kindof obnoxious, . . I know most of them were third years and interns who were at the peak of there misery, not to mention being on surgery rounds in the middle of the night . . . but damn. And how on earth are you supposed to reply . . . if you act like you know what you are getting into better than they did when they started you're going to sound pretentious and arrogant . . . I just laughed akwardly, and pretended to be passed out on the narcs quite frequently, lol. /vent
 
I had absolutely no reason to go to medical school. I didn't know any doctors, no one in my family is or has ever been involved even remotely in health care, I had never particulary cared to be around sick people, I had never volunteered for anything (and still haven't), I am not particularly compassionate, and while I'm interested in medicine, I can't even say I had a burning desire to learn about the wonders of the human body etc. etc.

It just seemed like a good idea at the time. Strike that, it seemed like a horrible idea because I had a pretty good notion that it would be hard to be poor for four years (although residency is harder financially, believe it or not even though I am getting paid). I don't remember what got into me. Looking back, if I knew then what I know now I could never have generated the drive necessary to jump through all of the hoops. As everyone on SDN knows, just applying to medical school takes an enormous amount of time and effort.

It's a decent job and I would never go back to my old career because I like my current specialty a lot. I don't think I am jaded at all. It just hasn't been that fantastic of an experience (yet) especially intern year last year. The only benefits to being a doctor so far (aside from the work being interesting and diverting but then so were my first two careers) is the prestige of being a doctor. Hey, at my Church they refer to us as Dr. and Mrs. Panda Bear and many of my neighbors hate us because I'm a physician. (College town, I don't have a Phd so I'm a poseur.)

So I got this inexplicable desire to go to medical school and arranged life accordingly. Fortunately, as I only applied to LSU New Orleans and Shreveport I never had to explain my motivations on the applications and nobody ever asked me on a interview. (There were no idiotic "diversity" or "demonstrate your compassion" questions on the secondaries.)

So we're not trying to talk anybody out of it. We just find the level of naive idealism amusing. Most of you are going to like medicine but I guarantee you're going to look back a lot and say, "What was I thinking?"
 
May I ask why? I've been getting through this poverty thing by considering residency some sort of light (however dim) at the end of the financial tunnel...

😕

to many people 30-40 thou a year is "nothing." remember that many med students come from upper middle class families and haven't had to live a normal life.

poverty is much less then this, and 30-40 thou a year is definitely not a bad salary at all.
 
to many people 30-40 thou a year is "nothing." remember that many med students come from upper middle class families and haven't had to live a normal life.

I disagree. Even if I had grown up in an upper middle class family, if my first job entering the working world was $40k, I'd be happy. And don't even think these people haven't led a "normal life". You'll find that plenty of these students still pay for their own school, etc. And don't be so quick to judge those in a socioeconomic class above yourself. Sure enough, there are people who grew up with less than you, wondering why your life was so easy.

Speaking for myself (and maybe PB, who also had a career before Med school), I'm not going to be jumping up and down when I get my first check. I made more money than that before I started med school, and I was single. Now I have a wife, and we'll have a third family member in a few months. All of a sudden, $40k ain't so much.
 
I disagree. Even if I had grown up in an upper middle class family, if my first job entering the working world was $40k, I'd be happy. And don't even think these people haven't led a "normal life". You'll find that plenty of these students still pay for their own school, etc. And don't be so quick to judge those in a socioeconomic class above yourself. Sure enough, there are people who grew up with less than you, wondering why your life was so easy.

Speaking for myself (and maybe PB, who also had a career before Med school), I'm not going to be jumping up and down when I get my first check. I made more money than that before I started med school, and I was single. Now I have a wife, and we'll have a third family member in a few months. All of a sudden, $40k ain't so much.

i said many, not all. i am speaking from experience, i have seen many, many med students who are young and single and grew up well off who did not know how to handle money, and didn't realize that 40 thousand a year is a good amount of money. Most households in the US combine to make less then this.
 
I disagree. Even if I had grown up in an upper middle class family, if my first job entering the working world was $40k, I'd be happy. And don't even think these people haven't led a "normal life". You'll find that plenty of these students still pay for their own school, etc. And don't be so quick to judge those in a socioeconomic class above yourself. Sure enough, there are people who grew up with less than you, wondering why your life was so easy.

Speaking for myself (and maybe PB, who also had a career before Med school), I'm not going to be jumping up and down when I get my first check. I made more money than that before I started med school, and I was single. Now I have a wife, and we'll have a third family member in a few months. All of a sudden, $40k ain't so much.

I have four kids and five dogs. We just can't flop in some studio apartment in a trendy but run-down part of town. Real Estate is not bad in the Lansing area but we did have to find an area with good schools which jacks up both the cost of a house and property taxes. I am not complaining, you understand. It's just that in medical school we still had some cash reserves and some equity in our house to live on, most of which are now gone.

$40,000 per year is not a bad salary when you are just starting out, i.e. married with one baby but it's not that hot when you're in your early forties and have all the usual responsibilities. On top of that we are paying back student loans, not a lot because we consolidated, but enough to take a bite out of the take home pay.

Forgive me if I don't jump up and dance for joy at the typical resident salary. I was making almost twice as much with about a tenth of the bull**** and less hours before I went to medical school. I'll probably make very good money when I finish residency so I'm not that concerned.

Medical training. The ultimate exercise of delayed gratification.
 
I, too, have had plenty of doctors tell me not to go into medicine. They were all of my parents' generation, and at first, I found it very discouraging. But when I sat back and thought about it, in some ways, they really got shafted. They started along this path back when the doctor was a highly respected (and highly paid) member of society, when paternalistic medicine was still enjoying its heyday, when technology was only just beginning to surge forward, and before HMOs and malpractice lawsuits were the rule rather than the exception. The landscape of medicine has changed completely, and now these doctors are practicing in a world they never conceived of when they applied.

Interestingly, the one doctor I worked with who ceaselessly encouraged me to go into medicine is the one doctor who never really worked in the "new" culture of medicine. Rather, she worked for Shriner's Hospitals, where she never had to worry about who had what insurance and who was getting billed. No matter what, her patients could get the care and referrals they needed, they could get it for free, and it was very comforting. And at the end of the day, she really and truly loved what she did, and she thought that I would love medicine too.

Anyway, my point is that I think a lot of doctors are unhappy that they're practicing in a different world than they thought they would be. We, on the other hand, are entering this field well aware of what the problems are, and we understand (I hope) what we're getting into. Sure, things might change on us the way they changed on the last generation of physicians, but I sincerely hope it'll be a change for the better rather than the worse. There is hope for us yet.
 
Just out of curiosity, where are you in your training?
 
to many people 30-40 thou a year is "nothing." remember that many med students come from upper middle class families and haven't had to live a normal life.

poverty is much less then this, and 30-40 thou a year is definitely not a bad salary at all.

Yes. But keep in mind that thats 40k for 80hrs/week. Essentially the equivalent of 15-20/year if residents had a normal workweek.
 
$40,000 per year is not a bad salary when you are just starting out, i.e. married with one baby but it's not that hot when you're in your early forties and have all the usual responsibilities. On top of that we are paying back student loans, not a lot because we consolidated, but enough to take a bite out of the take home pay.

PB, I'm not sure I interpreted your post correctly, but I'm with you on this one. I agree that $40K ain't sh__ for someone starting out. Certainly, you've got it harder than I will, though. 👍
 
It has been the exact opposite for me. I've had nothing but encouraging comments.
 
i said many, not all. i am speaking from experience, i have seen many, many med students who are young and single and grew up well off who did not know how to handle money, and didn't realize that 40 thousand a year is a good amount of money. Most households in the US combine to make less then this.

For students with 8 years of college and professional education and student loan debt, $40,000 is not really a "good" amount of money. Especially for 3-8 years post M.D. Granted, it's not peanuts, but it's not "good", considering the mountain of debt and 80 hour work weeks.

The fact that most people file for a "hardship forbearance" during residency should tell you something.
 
If you would like some words of discouragement, we on SDN are always happy to help.:laugh:

lol

But you can't really discourage me. I mean, you can but not with the usual stuff. Because where I live (Quebec), the system is really different. I will never have to take the MCAT, there's no GPA (although we have something much worse*), med school is cheap, there's not a whole lot of physician being sued, physician's salaries are lower but we step out of med school with less dept to start with and we have a wonderful-but-not-fully-fonctional public healthcare (I should add that even if it's often bashed, it saved my butt on 4 different occasions).

*it's called a Cote R = [(z score + your group's strenght + 5) x 5]. They average this thing for all the course you took. Apparently, this crap will be gone in three years. It's about time. This **** is killing me. I started college (cegep) too young and I failed everything in pre-baccalaureate administration. Now I average A+ in science (all the prerequiste) but that's not enough to convince anyone! 👎
 
For students with 8 years of college and professional education and student loan debt, $40,000 is not really a "good" amount of money. Especially for 3-8 years post M.D. Granted, it's not peanuts, but it's not "good", considering the mountain of debt and 80 hour work weeks.

The fact that most people file for a "hardship forbearance" during residency should tell you something.

most people do this? from people that i know in residency and other physicians only a few took it, and they were those with families or wanted a more comfortable lifestyle. 40k is MORE then enough for a single male or female, especially when its only for a short (2-4) year period.

i am guessing the people that need more then 40k a year never lived short in college or med school...also 40k must be more then adequate because i believe that 40k is about the average household income for roughly half of the US (household = combined).
 
lol

But you can't really discourage me. I mean, you can but not with the usual stuff. Because where I live (Quebec), the system is really different. I will never have to take the MCAT, there's no GPA (although we have something much worse*), med school is cheap, there's not a whole lot of physician being sued, physician's salaries are lower but we step out of med school with less dept to start with and we have a wonderful-but-not-fully-fonctional public healthcare (I should add that even if it's often bashed, it saved my butt on 4 different occasions).

*it's called a Cote R = [(z score + your group's strenght + 5) x 5]. They average this thing for all the course you took. Apparently, this crap will be gone in three years. It's about time. This **** is killing me. I started college (cegep) too young and I failed everything in pre-baccalaureate administration. Now I average A+ in science (all the prerequiste) but that's not enough to convince anyone! 👎


you can always go international...where there's a will there's a way. remember in the end all that matters is the ends. the ends always justify the means, and if you wan't the MD bad enough you can get it (you just have to sacrifice more).
 
Funny, I never received discouragement from anyone, except for one FMG doc who told me to not go into medicine for money because he was underpaid with his $200k (yeah, he was serious). But I guess I have not spoken to too many physicians. Then again, I have worked in a previous field (IT) where people complained about their jobs being outsourced, the long hours, lack of respect etc....so I'm jaded about people who are jaded about their careers. 😀

I'm sure medicine has it's bad points but I figure most careers have things that people gripe about, and at the end of the day, a job is just a job and people get sick and tired of it, and then they complain and gripe about it. Despite the fact that we hear doctors complaining, my school was filled with tons of doctor's kids who pushed their kids to become doctors as well. Guess it's not all bad. 😀
 
you can always go international...where there's a will there's a way. remember in the end all that matters is the ends. the ends always justify the means, and if you wan't the MD bad enough you can get it (you just have to sacrifice more).

🙂

well, my point was that I will stay here and our medical education is the same but I can get it in french. I'm not good enough to study in english, so it basically rule-out the option of studying south of the border.
 
40k is MORE then enough for a single male or female, especially when its only for a short (2-4) year period.

Try 3-6. What residencies let you out in 2?
As for whether 40k is enough for a single person, I partially agree with you, but suggest that it is a lot more money in some parts of the country than others. If you live in one of the higher cost of living cities, you will often have to forego things other people consider a necessity (like eg a car, with its related insurance, gas and parking costs) at that salary. If you live in a lower cost of living city, it is quite comfortable.
 
Try 3-6. What residencies let you out in 2?
As for whether 40k is enough for a single person, I partially agree with you, but suggest that it is a lot more money in some parts of the country than others. If you live in one of the higher cost of living cities, you will often have to forego things other people consider a necessity (like eg a car, with its related insurance, gas and parking costs) at that salary. If you live in a lower cost of living city, it is quite comfortable.

haha sorry i mis-typed that.

your post hits the nail on the head. the amenities that are wanted but not a necessity might have to be sacrificed, but 40k is very liveable.

how much did you live on during undergrad and med school? for many people less than 40k a year i am sure.
 
I'm sure medicine has it's bad points but I figure most careers have things that people gripe about, and at the end of the day, a job is just a job and people get sick and tired of it, and then they complain and gripe about it. Despite the fact that we hear doctors complaining, my school was filled with tons of doctor's kids who pushed their kids to become doctors as well. Guess it's not all bad. 😀


your example of the doctor who said he is underpaid with getting 200k a year is something that i also see all the time. i guess in the end, many people simply do not understand economics and the value of a dollar.

to get through undergrad i had to work 16hrs a week on top of a full load of classes. honestly med school has been much slower (except of course during the weeks before step1).
 
most people do this? from people that i know in residency and other physicians only a few took it, and they were those with families or wanted a more comfortable lifestyle. 40k is MORE then enough for a single male or female, especially when its only for a short (2-4) year period.

i am guessing the people that need more then 40k a year never lived short in college or med school...also 40k must be more then adequate because i believe that 40k is about the average household income for roughly half of the US (household = combined).

Alright, I'll bite.

Sure, like most, I lived off of less than half of that $40,000 per year during all of college and medical school, so I see what you're trying to say. However, the average medical school indebtedness upon graduation is about $130,000. With conservative estimation, your monthly payments would be between $1,000 and $2,000 for that debt. That means on top of your shrewd student-living lifestyle expenses, you have between $12,000 and $24,000 in student loan payments to make. Not exactly a lot of room for error. For example it would be awfully tough to buy a house. It would be tough to buy a car. It would be tough if your car insurance premiums were high. It would be tough if you (shockingly enough), wanted to live a life where you didn't have to live like a poor student until you were 30 or older.

All at a bargain rate of 80+ hours a week.

Hopefully you see the point I'm trying to make. Of course you can argue people CAN live on $40,000 a year somewhat reasonably. But it's quite a costly sacrifice.
 
"And really, if a premed's confidence in his/her decision was so weak that it can be shaken by someone elses comments, then s/he wasn't ready to make a $200k cost career decision in the first place."

This is so true!!!!!!! 👍
 
1000-2000 a month for loans right off the bat? must be a bad loan...
 
I think some dose of reality is necessary but it can become too much sometimes. It was funny when my PIs would come out of a pt room on a chaotic clinic day and say "and you're sure you want to do this??" but I've had experiences when I thought it was too much negativity. Like two weeks before medschool when I had an emergency apendectomy and every single medstudent and resident I encountered told me some variant of "its not to late to quit" . . . or "turn back now" when the found out I was starting medschool in a few weeks. After a while it got kindof obnoxious, . . I know most of them were third years and interns who were at the peak of there misery, not to mention being on surgery rounds in the middle of the night . . . but damn. And how on earth are you supposed to reply . . . if you act like you know what you are getting into better than they did when they started you're going to sound pretentious and arrogant . . . I just laughed akwardly, and pretended to be passed out on the narcs quite frequently, lol. /vent

Agreed. Sure, it's good not to be naive about the hardships of being a doctor, but there's a point where the negative comments aren't helpful.

So on a positive note, I learned today in my Human Behavior class that 76% of physicians are overall happy with their job and would do it again. I also picked up another thing about the whole medical perspective thing. The lecturer shared with us that law students test as having a higher level of stress than medical students. Everyone in the class protested, which is ridiculous because virtually none of them (well, with the exception of me 🙂 ) know how stressful law school is. It brought home to me that medical students (and I'm guessing doctors later) assume and are told that their path is the hardest and that what they're doing is harder than what everybody else is doing. Unfortunately, it tends to make us both egocentric and negative because we think we have it so much worse than everyone, which isn't necessarily true.
 
Agreed. Sure, it's good not to be naive about the hardships of being a doctor, but there's a point where the negative comments aren't helpful.

So on a positive note, I learned today in my Human Behavior class that 76% of physicians are overall happy with their job and would do it again. I also picked up another thing about the whole medical perspective thing. The lecturer shared with us that law students test as having a higher level of stress than medical students. Everyone in the class protested, which is ridiculous because virtually none of them (well, with the exception of me 🙂 ) know how stressful law school is. It brought home to me that medical students (and I'm guessing doctors later) assume and are told that their path is the hardest and that what they're doing is harder than what everybody else is doing. Unfortunately, it tends to make us both egocentric and negative because we think we have it so much worse than everyone, which isn't necessarily true.

1) Law school ISN'T that hard. It's as hard as you want to make it. If you're determined to get Coif or win the Sears Prize at Harvard, yes, it will be a 15 hour a day job. If you just want to pass, it's pretty easy (see Brush with the Law for two guys who did SLS/HLS while not even living near campus or reading their books), especially after 1L. I know a guy who didn't even LIVE IN THE US for the second half of 3L, he just flew back home for exams. Let's see you do that one in med school.

2) American MDs have it better than most others. I remember seeing the BMJ's ranking of physician satisfaction where you can watch it drop from whatever the hell we have (highest) to single payer (Canada) to the ridiculously low satisfaction rate of fully socialized countries (Britain, etc). We're at the end of the golden age for US MDs; I'm just hoping to sneak in and hang on until it goes too far down hill, by which time I'll have prepared exit options.
 
1) Law school ISN'T that hard. It's as hard as you want to make it. If you're determined to get Coif or win the Sears Prize at Harvard, yes, it will be a 15 hour a day job. If you just want to pass, it's pretty easy (see Brush with the Law for two guys who did SLS/HLS while not even living near campus or reading their books), especially after 1L. I know a guy who didn't even LIVE IN THE US for the second half of 3L, he just flew back home for exams. Let's see you do that one in med school.

That still doesn't mean law students don't have more stress than medical students. From what I recall, law school included a lot of job interviewing (which is pretty d@mn stressful) coupled with pressure to be at the top of your class. Here in medical school, I know the first few years of my career don't hinge on what I do this summer and that I'll do well and be able to do something I like even I graduate from the bottom of my class. Personally, I did not feel that way in law school.

Also, again, my point was that the medical students had no real way to knowing how stressful law school is in comparison to medical school -- however, they find it impossible to accept that any other students are more stressed than them because it doesn't mesh with their worldview, which is that they're doing the hardest thing ever. You can see how the same people could easily develop a notion that being a doctor is way harder than any other job and that the grass is always greener elsewhere ......
 
Also, again, my point was that the medical students had no real way to knowing how stressful law school is in comparison to medical school -- however, they find it impossible to accept that any other students are more stressed than them because it doesn't mesh with their worldview, which is that they're doing the hardest thing ever. You can see how the same people could easily develop a notion that being a doctor is way harder than any other job and that the grass is always greener elsewhere ......

There are enough of us who have done both on SDN that we probably could come to some sort of consensus. Clearly different people get stressed out by different things. But it would be hard to deny that there is simply more material covered in the first two years of med school than the first two years of law school. And for some, the issue spotting essay test approach of law school is not as bad.

But I would suggest to the prior poster (dilated) that actually it would be much easier to do more of med school remotely than law school, and more people do. Law school attendance is generally significantly higher than med school, and med school does a much better job of distributing notes on what you need to know, making reliance on professors less of a necessity than law school. Med school is simply more of a self study program than law.
 
There are enough of us who have done both on SDN that we probably could come to some sort of consensus. Clearly different people get stressed out by different things. But it would be hard to deny that there is simply more material covered in the first two years of med school than the first two years of law school. And for some, the issue spotting essay test approach of law school is not as bad.

But, again, not my point. None of us former law people from SDN were in my class today, and as far as I know none of my classmates have attended law school. However, these classmates (with no actual knowledge of how law school is) assumed that there's no way law students are more stressed than medical students. We're told in orientation and every day of our lives afterwards that what we're doing is harder than what anybody else is doing, and I think lots of us start to buy it, which is probably why we're so d@mned obnoxious to be around.
 
But, again, not my point. None of us former law people from SDN were in my class today, and as far as I know none of my classmates have attended law school. However, these classmates (with no actual knowledge of how law school is) assumed that there's no way law students are more stressed than medical students. We're told in orientation and every day of our lives afterwards that what we're doing is harder than what anybody else is doing, and I think lots of us start to buy it, which is probably why we're so d@mned obnoxious to be around.

Yes but most med school classes are pretty homogenous and those of us who have done both can come to our own conclusion of whether med school is harder than everything else, as we have done at least one of the other classically though to be hard paths already (as might a former I banker in med school, etc). Those of us who have done previous hard paths do have this actual knowledge your classmates lack and yet still often come to the same conclusion, validating their poorly researched opinions.
 
1000-2000 a month for loans right off the bat? must be a bad loan...

Like Law2Doc said....not a bad one (federal, actually) - a big one. Around $130,000. I chose that number because it's about the med student average.
 
I'm excited to see what turn this thread will take over the weekend...

1) Why do doctors discourage young'uns?
2) If you can't manage your life on $40k working 80hrs/wk saving lives, you're just foolish with your money
3) law school is harder than med school-NOT 😛
4) ?????
 
Yes. But keep in mind that thats 40k for 80hrs/week. Essentially the equivalent of 15-20/year if residents had a normal workweek.


I live in the tristate area, this is what I would get out of 40k/year which comes to approx. 2 thousand beans a month:

1)school loan of is approx. 1k/per month if I dont defer it, (by the way they go beserk if you do defer it)
2) Saab convertible with low down payment will be about 600./ per month. Not including insurance. Since I plan on being in debt of a long , long, long time anyway.
3)food and fuel now is about $400. per month.
4)Rent in a decent middle class neighborhood within 20minutes of the George Washington bridge (had to move to New Jersey for this is about 1150. including utilities
5)Entertainment, misc and emergency bucks is approx. $500/ month.
6)This comes out to $3650. per month and that does NOT include mandatory insurance for the Saab convertible.😱
 
here is my budget

1 - rent/utilties/entertainment = 1200
2 - food (at 15 a day) = 450
3 - car/insurance = 550 a month
4 - loan = 1000 a month (though i think its foolish not to defer during residency)

thats 3200 a month, with a nice car (honda) that i will upgrade after residency and a moderate to high food allowance (105 a week), and 2200 with deferment.
 
"Saab convertible with low down payment will be about 600./ per month."

600 a month is insane bro...why don't u wait on the new hot car until after residency? seems extravagant...
 
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