Os can make 2 mil

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
If you are you doing a 4-6 year residency for just the money...

youre-gonna-to-have-a-bad-time.jpg
 
Lol. Can't wait to see how much more crap this gets.
 
There is so much to unpack here. Sure, I work for a DSO one day a week and once in a while I hit 20K/day. But that is not the norm. It is so dependent on the type of DSO and practice. I will tell you my experience. I work for Pacific Dental Co. in the Minneapolis area of Minnesota. I am very grateful to them for allowing me to practice part-time. I work in 3 offices and rotate every other Friday and one Saturday a month. (Welcome to academic OMS), I get over 40% production and they handle all the logistics. I essentially show up and take out teeth. But as I am part-time all the implants and big money cases go to the full-time periodontist. He is very good and they should shovel that work to him to keep him happy as he is full time. There are days when I have 2-3 sedations and a couple locals then somedays where it is quite busy.

DSO's will always attempt to keep the bills down so somedays I have only 2 assistants so that limits my production while other times I have 3-4 and can really crank. Its a meet-and-treat practice. So there are times when I review the cases and they are not really good candidates. Its OS in a non-OS clinic. Can be challenging at times. But overall, I think there is money to be made in DSO's if you are willing to travel and can put up with some general DDS crap from time to time. 2 Mil? sure, in the ideal situation which happens very rarely.

My 2-cents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
nade0016 said:
There is so much to unpack here. Sure, I work for a DSO one day a week and once in a while I hit 20K/day. But that is not the norm. It is so dependent on the type of DSO and practice. I will tell you my experience. I work for Pacific Dental Co. in the Minneapolis area of Minnesota. I am very grateful to them for allowing me to practice part-time. I work in 3 offices and rotate every other Friday and one Saturday a month. (Welcome to academic OMS), I get over 40% production and they handle all the logistics. I essentially show up and take out teeth. But as I am part-time all the implants and big money cases go to the full-time periodontist. He is very good and they should shovel that work to him to keep him happy as he is full time. There are days when I have 2-3 sedations and a couple locals then somedays where it is quite busy.

DSO's will always attempt to keep the bills down so somedays I have only 2 assistants so that limits my production while other times I have 3-4 and can really crank. Its a meet-and-treat practice. So there are times when I review the cases and they are not really good candidates. Its OS in a non-OS clinic. Can be challenging at times. But overall, I think there is money to be made in DSO's if you are willing to travel and can put up with some general DDS crap from time to time. 2 Mil? sure, in the ideal situation which happens very rarely.

My 2-cents.
Click to expand...
Academia really is a calling. Haven’t flirted with doing full time PP?
 
bergus95 said:
Academia really is a calling. Haven’t flirted with doing full time PP?
Click to expand...
I get really sick of the mothers of teenage daughters and the entitlement that comes with that. I feel that I trained to do more than just T&T. And I love working with residents. It's the SoD sh%t that kills me.
 
This is an interesting thread.

We all love the surgery.

We are grateful to have nade0016 in Minnesota...he is a huge asset...more than he knows.

Life boils down to tradeoffs. The OP can work 5 days a week, and can "produce" $20,000...I am betting he is thinking the "charges", but his practice will never get paid what they charge...at least not where I live. He can go into a practice and not worry about the logistics, but there is a price for that.

I enjoy the orthognathic cases, and the patients and parents appreciate not having to drive 1-2 hours for every appointment.

But here is the thing. I do a fair amount of orthognathic surgery, and in last several years, I have not been paid more than 10-to-20% of my fees for any orthognathic case I do. I suspect that the insurance companies pay the state universities more, as well as Medicaid (Minnesota Medical Assistance.), so there is that...but it doesn't help the attendings (as nade0016 points out).

I recently had a patient who had a BSSRO and two maxillary third molars removed. The third party payor paid me 6% of my BSSRO fee. With the odontectomies, I was paid 10.2% of my total fee. My overhead is about 70-75%. I am paying these patients to come see me.

I can forsee a time where these cases in the USA will only be performed in institutions (just like Europe), because the third-party payors (and in many cases, the government workers) like getting and spending money as much as anyone.
 
New OMFS grads can expect to make from 250k-400k plus bonus depending on location, as an associate on a partnership track. 4 days a week.

500k-750k+ if working for one of the chains. But expect a lot of driving and nights spent away from home

this is what I’ve personally heard from current grads/those applying rn
 
OMSDoc said:
This is an interesting thread.

We all love the surgery.

We are grateful to have nade0016 in Minnesota...he is a huge asset...more than he knows.

Life boils down to tradeoffs. The OP can work 5 days a week, and can "produce" $20,000...I am betting he is thinking the "charges", but his practice will never get paid what they charge...at least not where I live. He can go into a practice and not worry about the logistics, but there is a price for that.

I enjoy the orthognathic cases, and the patients and parents appreciate not having to drive 1-2 hours for every appointment.

But here is the thing. I do a fair amount of orthognathic surgery, and in last several years, I have not been paid more than 10-to-20% of my fees for any orthognathic case I do. I suspect that the insurance companies pay the state universities more, as well as Medicaid (Minnesota Medical Assistance.), so there is that...but it doesn't help the attendings (as nade0016 points out).

I recently had a patient who had a BSSRO and two maxillary third molars removed. The third party payor paid me 6% of my BSSRO fee. With the odontectomies, I was paid 10.2% of my total fee. My overhead is about 70-75%. I am paying these patients to come see me.

I can forsee a time where these cases in the USA will only be performed in institutions (just like Europe), because the third-party payors (and in many cases, the government workers) like getting and spending money as much as anyone.
Click to expand...
Oh if only, we are lucky if we get 10% for state paid orthognathics. Supposedly with the new budget from the Gov. we will see a 98% increase if we are critical access point for dental. Let's see what that entails......
 
nade0016 said:
There is so much to unpack here. Sure, I work for a DSO one day a week and once in a while I hit 20K/day. But that is not the norm. It is so dependent on the type of DSO and practice. I will tell you my experience. I work for Pacific Dental Co. in the Minneapolis area of Minnesota. I am very grateful to them for allowing me to practice part-time. I work in 3 offices and rotate every other Friday and one Saturday a month. (Welcome to academic OMS), I get over 40% production and they handle all the logistics. I essentially show up and take out teeth. But as I am part-time all the implants and big money cases go to the full-time periodontist. He is very good and they should shovel that work to him to keep him happy as he is full time. There are days when I have 2-3 sedations and a couple locals then somedays where it is quite busy.

DSO's will always attempt to keep the bills down so somedays I have only 2 assistants so that limits my production while other times I have 3-4 and can really crank. Its a meet-and-treat practice. So there are times when I review the cases and they are not really good candidates. Its OS in a non-OS clinic. Can be challenging at times. But overall, I think there is money to be made in DSO's if you are willing to travel and can put up with some general DDS crap from time to time. 2 Mil? sure, in the ideal situation which happens very rarely.

My 2-cents.
Click to expand...
With working academics on top of this travel gig, what is your rough salary if you dont mind disclosing? I feel like it is so difficult to find real numbers for academic OMFS who do PP on the side.
 
iluvnetters said:
With working academics on top of this travel gig, what is your rough salary if you dont mind disclosing? I feel like it is so difficult to find real numbers for academic OMFS who do PP on the side.
Click to expand...
I am sure its enough to live very comfortably and not worry about paying his bills and/or debt back. You have to remember that academics comes with a lot of pros even if it doesn't pay as much as PP.
 
DocMon16 said:
I am sure its enough to live very comfortably and not worry about paying his bills and/or debt back. You have to remember that academics comes with a lot of pros even if it doesn't pay as much as PP.
Click to expand...
Yep. Lots of benefits, health insurance, time off, 401k etc.

But also lots of meetings, emails, policies, academic BS.

Trade-offs like anything in life.
 
iluvnetters said:
With working academics on top of this travel gig, what is your rough salary if you dont mind disclosing? I feel like it is so difficult to find real numbers for academic OMFS who do PP on the side.
Click to expand...
I have a base salary of $247,000 from the University. My PP gig depends on a lot of things but at the 6 month mark I have $113,000 pretax. So I will pay some of that back to the federal and state gov but I am hoping to get to $250K pre-tax for the PP gig this year. My total last year was about $100K after taxes getting me to about $350K. Not crushing it but comfortable.
 
nade0016 said:
I have a base salary of $247,000 from the University. My PP gig depends on a lot of things but at the 6 month mark I have $113,000 pretax. So I will pay some of that back to the federal and state gov but I am hoping to get to $250K pre-tax for the PP gig this year. My total last year was about $100K after taxes getting me to about $350K. Not crushing it but comfortable.
Click to expand...

I don't get how this adds up to 2 million.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
ddser90210 said:
I think that person was being sarcastic
Click to expand...
It's doable but not realistic to be honest. There are some surgeons/dentists/docs that own multiple offices and can exceed this...many factors to consider. It's not a straightforward statement by any means.
 
nade0016 said:
I have a base salary of $247,000 from the University. My PP gig depends on a lot of things but at the 6 month mark I have $113,000 pretax. So I will pay some of that back to the federal and state gov but I am hoping to get to $250K pre-tax for the PP gig this year. My total last year was about $100K after taxes getting me to about $350K. Not crushing it but comfortable.
Click to expand...
Can you go over how many days you work? I wanted to do half PP for the money but half hospital because I thought the scope was really interesting. I was expecting significantly less than $250k for hospital.
 
There are a few GPs that make more than that....so, not have to go into OS if you only care about the Baht. 20K a day pulling teeth is not sustainable, as it is hard labor compared to other dental procedures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
Still not addressed...with respect to "production" are we talking charges or revenue (receipts less refunds)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
LegendaryPanda said:
Can you go over how many days you work? I wanted to do half PP for the money but half hospital because I thought the scope was really interesting. I was expecting significantly less than $250k for hospital.
Click to expand...
Sure, I work M-Th (4 days a week) as the PD and Interim Division Director of OMS at the U of MN. 1 OR day, sometime 2, and then clinic, clinic, clinic. Do most of my admin from home at night. Then every Fridays I work for PDS at 3 different offices and one Saturday a month. For a total of 5 days a month PP. So some weeks its a 6 day work week for me but most of the time it is 5. Although I writing to you form the OR on a Saturday morning as my chief and intern drain a nice abscess.
ddser90210 said:
This entire thread is pointless
Click to expand...
Then why comment. The thread is in response to someone "declaring" that OMS can make 2 mil. Yeah, maybe. but only in certain circumstances. Then the thread went toward the topic of professional satisfaction and different practice models. Not sure what is pointless about that.
 
nade0016 said:
Sure, I work M-Th (4 days a week) as the PD and Interim Division Director of OMS at the U of MN. 1 OR day, sometime 2, and then clinic, clinic, clinic. Do most of my admin from home at night. Then every Fridays I work for PDS at 3 different offices and one Saturday a month. For a total of 5 days a month PP. So some weeks its a 6 day work week for me but most of the time it is 5. Although I writing to you form the OR on a Saturday morning as my chief and intern drain a nice abscess.

Then why comment. The thread is in response to someone "declaring" that OMS can make 2 mil. Yeah, maybe. but only in certain circumstances. Then the thread went toward the topic of professional satisfaction and different practice models. Not sure what is pointless about that.
Click to expand...
Wow that's amazing that 1 of your PP days would yield the same salary as 4 hospital days. Still, I'm interested in the work you do. What do you think is harder or more intense/busy? The OR and clinic days at your hospital or PP?
 
ElCubanito said:
There are a few GPs that make more than that....so, not have to go into OS if you only care about the Baht. 20K a day pulling teeth is not sustainable, as it is hard labor compared to other dental procedures.
Click to expand...

20k a day pulling teeth is not that taxing…a full mouth with alveo under sedation is a 10k case that takes 90 minutes…or 8 sets of wizzies instead…but realistically it’s more the money from implants and the big grafting cases. An implant is $3k and takes way less than an hour.

it’s certainly sustainable.
 
nade0016 said:
Sure, I work M-Th (4 days a week) as the PD and Interim Division Director of OMS at the U of MN. 1 OR day, sometime 2, and then clinic, clinic, clinic. Do most of my admin from home at night. Then every Fridays I work for PDS at 3 different offices and one Saturday a month. For a total of 5 days a month PP. So some weeks its a 6 day work week for me but most of the time it is 5. Although I writing to you form the OR on a Saturday morning as my chief and intern drain a nice abscess.

Then why comment. The thread is in response to someone "declaring" that OMS can make 2 mil. Yeah, maybe. but only in certain circumstances. Then the thread went toward the topic of professional satisfaction and different practice models. Not sure what is pointless about that.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing, it’s great to see how Academic positions are compensated and compare it to what we hear in our program. If you don’t mind sharing your opinion I have several questions?
Would you say that completing a fellowship(mainly considering Head and Neck or Sleep) will increase the base salary from dental school or hospital?
Were you offered a position at faculty practice and chose to go with a day in PP instead or your institution doesn’t have a faculty practice?
Does a position as PD offers significantly higher pay compared to regular full time faculty position?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
nade0016 said:
Sure, I work M-Th (4 days a week) as the PD and Interim Division Director of OMS at the U of MN. 1 OR day, sometime 2, and then clinic, clinic, clinic. Do most of my admin from home at night. Then every Fridays I work for PDS at 3 different offices and one Saturday a month. For a total of 5 days a month PP. So some weeks its a 6 day work week for me but most of the time it is 5. Although I writing to you form the OR on a Saturday morning as my chief and intern drain a nice abscess.

Then why comment. The thread is in response to someone "declaring" that OMS can make 2 mil. Yeah, maybe. but only in certain circumstances. Then the thread went toward the topic of professional satisfaction and different practice models. Not sure what is pointless about that.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. I also have some follow up questions.
What is the typical compensation range for a full time faculty who just finished residency?
You mentioned base salary. Are there ways within the hospital/university by which you can earn more than your base salary? If so, how?
Do most programs allow faculty members to work outside the hospital?
 
LegendaryPanda said:
Wow that's amazing that 1 of your PP days would yield the same salary as 4 hospital days. Still, I'm interested in the work you do. What do you think is harder or more intense/busy? The OR and clinic days at your hospital or PP?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it should be embarrassing to SoD's that they don't pay a competitive wage, but most SoD's are run by old, gray haired academic dentists who don't really have a good grip on what is out there and available today. Or for that matter whats even possible.

Your question is so interesting as my partner and I were discussing just this a few weeks back. The PP is certainly harder on my back and the patients expect more direct contact from "their" surgeon. But the money is good and I don't really have to think much. Just show up and take out teeth. Not a lot of planning or thought in that. Risk is really just nerves injuries and sedation complications. Minimal post ops and redo's etc. Its a safe and lucrative way to practice.

The hospital stuff is certainly more intense but in my opinion, more fun. Working with residents keeps me young and keeps me true to the specialty. I have to be up on my game and know why I am doing something. Then I have to be able to describe and teach someone how to do it.

I currently am enjoying the combination of the 2 types of work. But if the SoD came to me and said we will double your salary if you stop PP, I would certainly do that. I definitely get a lot more emails in the SoD as everyone wants something from you. Learning to say no is so tough for OMS's. We have been saying yes our whole lives and careers up until now.

I think I am a little sour currently as we cannot find another faculty, the SoD refuses to increase the base salary and my partner is out on maternity. So it is essentially just me running a department, a program and working in PP. I would love to bag on the SoD but they are really supportive (not financially) of our Department and our mission. As with everything, it will get better.

Hope this helps.
 
1ATM said:
Thank you for sharing, it’s great to see how Academic positions are compensated and compare it to what we hear in our program. If you don’t mind sharing your opinion I have several questions?
Would you say that completing a fellowship(mainly considering Head and Neck or Sleep) will increase the base salary from dental school or hospital?
Were you offered a position at faculty practice and chose to go with a day in PP instead or your institution doesn’t have a faculty practice?
Does a position as PD offers significantly higher pay compared to regular full time faculty position?
Click to expand...
Thats a tough one to say. Fellowships are seen as nothing to Dental Schools. Great, you can put a fibula in a mandible. But how were the scores on the OS 1 exam for the D3's? Thats all that SoD's really care about. Will you teach the dental students and be nice to them. How were the course reviews, will the D3's complain to the Academic Dean? Stuff like that.

Hospitals look at extra training much more positively and will pay for additional training. So thats where a fellowship trained OS needs to look. Obviously, there are exceptions but they are rare.

I was given the choice between External PP, internal PP, and Internal % of overall clinic production. At the time of my contract the SoD had no idea about finances, how to run a clinic or even what code reimbursed the highest. So I was not willing to chance an internal PP with the financials so out of whack. There is not dedicated outside PP facility where our faculty can provide services and in a large metropolitan area it would be tough to start one. My position as PD and Chairman added a whopping $3000 to my salary. Again, my SoD doesn't really appreciate or recognize success outside the pre-doctoral curriculum. Keep dental students happy is all they cared about in the past.

One thing I need to attach to this: We have a new Dean who is not one of the old gray hairs that have run the place for so long. He is "new" and has a different take. I am hopeful to approach him in the near future and start to build a stronger and more robust program with his blessing. Heres hoping.
 
basic_suture said:
Thanks for sharing. I also have some follow up questions.
What is the typical compensation range for a full time faculty who just finished residency?
You mentioned base salary. Are there ways within the hospital/university by which you can earn more than your base salary? If so, how?
Do most programs allow faculty members to work outside the hospital?
Click to expand...
The compensation range is quite variable. I cannot really give a good idea. What I have seen really depends on location and augmentations like PP. $175-250 is what I have seen. I feel there are always ways to earn more but it depends on a lot of factors including contract language, hospital priorities, and practice style. Most hospitals will not allow you to work outside unless there is specific language in the contract. Most practices and hospitals want you working for them and focusing on the hospital and the practice. That is what our former Dean wanted for us, and the entire SoD to be 100% internal, the Mayo Medical Center model. But that was not sustainable and he only lasted a couple years. So you see how that worked out.
 
Last edited:
privatedds said:
20000 production per day doing travelling gig. Take home 8k. 5 days a week. 2mil pre-tax.
Click to expand...
GP's can pull those numbers too. Anyone can, really.
My advice to you is to invest as much as possible. As an IC/employee, you may be earning a ton, but you're not growing owner equity. At your income level that ain't no biggie now, but something to consider, nonetheless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 702
Has anyone ever done something like bounce around different states and work a few days a month? Ex: Have a partnership in home state, partner continues to work there, you go to Hawaii and work 5 days a month during the summer time and hang out the rest of the time. Or instead of a partnership you only work around corporate offices in different places to get some travel in, Montana 2 months, Maine 2 months, banging out production.

I am really missing out on the world while in school so I'd like to make up for that big time when I graduate as a GP or OMS, or whatever have you
 
D1Bound said:
Has anyone ever done something like bounce around different states and work a few days a month? Ex: Have a partnership in home state, partner continues to work there, you go to Hawaii and work 5 days a month during the summer time and hang out the rest of the time. Or instead of a partnership you only work around corporate offices in different places to get some travel in, Montana 2 months, Maine 2 months, banging out production.

I am really missing out on the world while in school so I'd like to make up for that big time when I graduate as a GP or OMS, or whatever have you
Click to expand...

A possibility? Yes

In reality? A challenge

How would you handle (especially as a GP) emergencies when you're not there. How would you build the referrral base as an OS (which is crucial to geting patients in your chair) when you're not there?

What happens as an OS, if you're not there and one of your GOOD GP referalls calls your office asking you to see an emergency patient who needs your services quickly?

Sure there is the potential to jump around from place to place for a few months, but in the long run 1 of the thimgs that builds patient rapport, which is key towards keeping patients in your chair (both existsing and new patients) is you being there to see them.

The reality is that in most circumstances, dentistry is a field where you really can't do the bulk of what we do remotely, and need to be in the same office(s) regularly, to keep the stream of patients, and hence production, going
 
DrJeff said:
A possibility? Yes

In reality? A challenge

How would you handle (especially as a GP) emergencies when you're not there. How would you build the referrral base as an OS (which is crucial to geting patients in your chair) when you're not there?

What happens as an OS, if you're not there and one of your GOOD GP referalls calls your office asking you to see an emergency patient who needs your services quickly?

Sure there is the potential to jump around from place to place for a few months, but in the long run 1 of the thimgs that builds patient rapport, which is key towards keeping patients in your chair (both existsing and new patients) is you being there to see them.

The reality is that in most circumstances, dentistry is a field where you really can't do the bulk of what we do remotely, and need to be in the same office(s) regularly, to keep the stream of patients, and hence production, going
Click to expand...
That's a great point. I have heard that surgeons have a difficult time physically leaving their practice. I guess when the getting is good you don't WANT to leave it, and also you literally cannot because of obligations
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Hemingway3132
What Makes a Great OS Extern?
Replies
5
Views
1K
nade0016
nade0016
771234
OS residents higher up than GPS residents??
Replies
28
Views
3K
osteotomy01
osteotomy01
T
OS Letters of Recommendation
Replies
1
Views
1K
IndifferentOsteoblast
IndifferentOsteoblast
yorta
Can a high CBSE score make up for a failed course?
Replies
15
Views
3K
nade0016
nade0016
T
Can OMS Programs see where else you apply?
Replies
2
Views
630
Undecided__
U
Top