Osteopathic and Allopathic residencies

[Jiminy Cricket]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

 

[braluk]

Osteopathic medicine has had a rough road. For many Americans, most probably don't know the distinction between a D.O. or an M.D. and many DOs will tell you the frustrations of constantly explaining what a DO degree is to a patient when the DO degree follows the name, whilst an MD rarely, if ever, has to explain the degree. That aside, the opinions of DOs, mainly from MDs, seem to be less naively curious like the layman-the typical being that osteopathic medicine is the backlog for rejected allopathic applicants [one can often see this when osteopathic students veer toward allopathic type specialties like rads (things that may render its OMM technique - something that osteopathic medicine seems to pride itself in- virtually "forgotten" since I would presume that Osteopaths tend to lean toward family physician type of treatment- however i do speak in volumes and i am myself not involved with osteopathy, so take my post with a grain of salt).

Granted, the number of osteopathic programs and positions pales in comparison to those granted to MDs. There are many places that would even take a foreign MD over a DO any day of the week. For allopathic medicine to begin to pervade into its limited breadth of opportunities is like taking bread from a poor man to feed a wealthy family. The backlash would worsen any tensions between allopaths and osteopaths (i mean for gods sake, osteopathic medicine was eliminated by the AMA in california in the 1960's and reinstated 14 years later there).

It just makes more sense for osteopaths to be able to apply to allopath residencies given the circumstances presented- of course this doesn't help the image that osteopathic students are just allopathic "wannabes", but the unfortunate reality is, that many premeds apply to DO schools as backup. I tend to respect DO's who apply to osteopathic medicine on the grounds that they truly believe in the philosophy, and not only as a backup plan. That said, if you wanted to practice osteopathy, you should have applied to DO schools, not MD. I agree that osteopathic schools should only establish themselves with only osteopathic residencies, same with allopath, given that the philosophies and practice may be different, and in going from one to another would be a disservice to your intentions to follow that philosophy. However, it just seems that 1) the student pool in osteopathic medicine seems to have a higher ratio of "allopathic wannabes"/true osteopathic believers, versus the ratio in allopathic medicine of "osteopathic wannabes"/true allopathic believers. 2) Thus you will always have DO students applying for a allopathic residency. 3) That, and the relatively severely limited opportunities available to DOs (even in the world such as New Zealand or Australia, which limit their scope of practice) will always favor the unfortunately underappreciated osteopath.

In practice, you'll have MDs with DO's doing the same things without any difference. But in title, everything changes.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

Would you really want to be trained by osteopaths?

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Why is it that people come here specifically to pick fights? Seriously, dude, do well on your boards, and you won't have to worry about having access to residency programs. If you suck on the USMLE, do you think that you are going to do wonderfully on the COMLEX? Do you think that they give D.O.'s licenses out of pity or something? D.O.'s are not equally represented in allo residencies, so there is no reason to think that an M.D. would be equally competative with D.O.'s in their PGY programs.

I wish that they'd make the same degree name for M.D.'s and D.O.'s just so that I wouldn't have to keep hearing about this garbage every single effing day I log onto SDN. It gets old. You wanna do a D.O. residency? Become a D.O.

Let the games begin.......

(Please close this thread soon.)

 

[braluk]

Gotta love flamewars, one thing that really sucks about bringing a fresh breed of SDNers onto the site is that so many of them ask the same old crap all the time without taking time to look for your own answers. I mean of course we'll get our what are my chances thread, and the other repetitious stuff that are expected and normal, and appreciated, but its those dimwits who post the same inflammatory crap all the time. Its not that hard, anyone who can read and use a computer can see the "search" component of every forum and find an answer. But alas, Wizard of Oz has already made the first move. Let the flame wars begin

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Gotta love flamewars, one thing that really sucks about bringing a fresh breed of SDNers onto the site is that so many of them ask the same old crap all the time without taking time to look for your own answers. I mean of course we'll get our what are my chances thread, and the other repetitious stuff that are expected and normal, and appreciated, but its those dimwits who post the same inflammatory crap all the time. Its not that hard, anyone who can read and use a computer can see the "search" component of every forum and find an answer. But alas, Wizard of Oz has already made the first move. Let the flame wars begin

Well, my comment was kind of a joke anyway. However, the original poster made a really good point; if the osteopaths wish to be viewed on equal footing, then osteopathic residencies should be available to those who have finished allopathic training (with maybe a mandatory PGY-1 intern year month-long stint to learn the bone massage stuff). Why is it every time someone brings up an unaddressed issue people call it an inchoate "flame war"?

 

[braluk]

Well, my comment was kind of a joke anyway. However, the original poster made a really good point; if the osteopaths wish to be viewed on equal footing, then osteopathic residencies should be available to those who have finished allopathic training (with maybe a mandatory PGY-1 intern year month-long stint to learn the bone massage stuff). Why is it every time someone brings up an unaddressed issue people call it an inchoate "flame war"?

i think mainly because thats what it always comes down to. the OP has a legit point, hence my response, which had no flames in it whatsoever. However, "mature" conversations tend to degrade very rapidly, especially on studentdoctor. If you look at threads where both DO and MD are mentioned, you'll start seeing the trend.

A question like, whats the differnece between allopathic and osteopathic school will warrant a more objective answer. But his question banks upon equality, a question which will probably require a subjective response. Toes will be stepped on, and people will get angry. Takes one flame to start the fire. Its inevitable.

Although i agree with your point of equal footing, granted the street going both ways tends to be a very viable argument, however, I still think DO's will always be looked down upon by the allopathic community. Then it becomes a matter of allopathic doctors taking away some spots from the osteopaths. DO's, because they are the minority group, will always have something to prove to be considered "equal". Opening up their own home turf and then subsequently losing spots (and who says they will, but it could happen) will only reinforce the idea that osteopathic doctors are "inferior doctorates", even if osteopaths do win allopathic residencies.
STUPID ANALOGY ALERT:
Its the idea of the popular kid against the less popular kid. The unpopular kid will have a small group of friends that will always prefer him. The unpopular kid gains more ground if he starts winning over friends from the popular kid. The popular kid has many many friends. But, if the popular kid catches on and begins to win over the unpopular kid's loyal friends, even though the unpopular kid is still winning over new friends, he loses.

Its a stupid analogy, I know. The only way that I could see osteopathic schools start to gain momentum is to get to the level where both fields are equally distributed in the country, quantitatively speaking (qualitative doesn't seem to be the issue since both allopathic and osteopathic schools churn out fantastic doctors). Who knows how that could happen. It would be really nice if there were an even mix of DOs and MDs across the country, it would certainly make things more balanced, and facilitate the disseminatation of ideas and healthcare, and so forth from two different medical perspectives, but the prospect of this is far from attainable at this point.

 

[8744]

I am in a combined MD/DO program and I have observed no functional difference between DOs and MDs when it comes to knowledge, practical skills, or bearing.

But, from my limited experience, most DOs don't do OMM and even look on it with disdain, often rolling their eyes when it is mentioned. With this in mind, it seems to me that their is even less distinction between MDs and DOs than many imagine, apparently as many DOs look at the hours they spend doing OMM in the same way I look at all the empathy training they tried to cram down my throat.

At one of our hospitals, all the charts have a wierd form to record the Osteopathic Musckuloskeletal (?) Exam, not one of which I have ever seen filled out even though this particular hospital is primarily a DO operation. It seems kind of silly to do something like this for a COPD exacerbation, you understand, but it sits there, in every chart.

I am happy to be corrected, lectured, taken to school, or otherwise chastised by any DOs who practice OMM. I have little interest in it and know even less about it. I'm just telling you what I see.

 

[8744]

I don't look down on DOs, not in the slightest. Many of our attendings are DOs and they are pretty darned good at what they do.

The funny thing is that at the hospital that I mentioned in the previous post, MDs are the minority and nobody ever treats me any differently.

 

[beefballs]

yes but didn't all that empathy allow you to feel your patients pain easier. C'mon I know the tough guy exterior only maks the gooey inside

 

[8744]

yes but didn't all that empathy allow you to feel your patients pain easier. C'mon I know the tough guy exterior only maks the gooey inside

I'm crying on the inside, where it hurts the most.

This thing called love...it burns.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

i'm not trying to create a flame war....although with a site filled with a lot of egos, things rarely are discussed without emotions

i am just saying, since there really is no difference in the practice of most DO and MD physicians, shouldnt we be allowed to compete in their residency pools as they compete in hours.

lets be honest, MD's and DO's work together, get paid the same and generally the patient doesnt know the difference (I dont even believe there is a difference when you look at their practices). So, shouldnt we be allowed to compete for their competetive residency pools after OMM training?

some of the OMM skills are actually pretty cool and i wouldnt mind getting trained in them as an allopathic doc.

since our fields are basically the same, the future of medicine in the US would seem as though it could benefit through a meshing of the DO and MD worlds. as it stands, they can mesh in our world but we cant mesh in theirs.

 

[Taus]

i'm not trying to create a flame war....although with a site filled with a lot of egos, things rarely are discussed without emotions

i am just saying, since there really is no difference in the practice of most DO and MD physicians, shouldnt we be allowed to compete in their residency pools as they compete in hours.

lets be honest, MD's and DO's work together, get paid the same and generally the patient doesnt know the difference (I dont even believe there is a difference when you look at their practices). So, shouldnt we be allowed to compete for their competetive residency pools after OMM training?

some of the OMM skills are actually pretty cool and i wouldnt mind getting trained in them as an allopathic doc.

since our fields are basically the same, the future of medicine in the US would seem as though it could benefit through a meshing of the DO and MD worlds. as it stands, they can mesh in our world but we cant mesh in theirs.

I'm a DO student and see no good reason why that shouldn't be the case ( w/ the residencies...not the whole degree).....but you've got to realize that this issue is loaded w/ politics....it would take a lot to change something like that....

 

[Law2Doc]

since our fields are basically the same, the future of medicine in the US would seem as though it could benefit through a meshing of the DO and MD worlds. as it stands, they can mesh in our world but we cant mesh in theirs.

I don't see much interest in the DO side to merge into the allo world, disbanding their professional organizations and abiding by the requirements of the LCME, and that is what would be required to get the result you seek.

 

[njbmd]

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

Since osteopathic residency programs and allopathic residency programs have separate regulating bodies, I don't see either giving up any power or merging anytime soon. Just because one is a majority (or better known), it doesn't mean that a merger is needed or wanted. Patients don't care and in the long run, it doesn't make any difference whether you are a DO or an MD if you want to practice medicine.

i am just saying, since there really is no difference in the practice of most DO and MD physicians, shouldnt we be allowed to compete in their residency pools as they compete in hours.

lets be honest, MD's and DO's work together, get paid the same and generally the patient doesnt know the difference (I dont even believe there is a difference when you look at their practices). So, shouldnt we be allowed to compete for their competetive residency pools after OMM training?

some of the OMM skills are actually pretty cool and i wouldnt mind getting trained in them as an allopathic doc.

You can obtain OMM training any time that you want and incorporate OMM in your practice before, during and after an allopathic residency. You can supplement your medical practice with any techniques that are acceptable medical therapies.

If you want to compete for competitive osteopathic residency positions, you may want to petition the AOA (American Osteopathic Association) and perhaps they will make an exception for you. If you don't try, you never know what you can do.

 

[63768]

from speaking to DOs at TCOM, it seems as if the number of osteopathic residencies is nothing compared to allopathic residencies. sure the DO stigma plays a large role but it's rare to find a DO student that only applies to osteopathic residencies, primarily because of the severely limited number of spots.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

from speaking to DOs at TCOM, it seems as if the number of osteopathic residencies is nothing compared to allopathic residencies. sure the DO stigma plays a large role but it's rare to find a DO student that only applies to osteopathic residencies, primarily because of the severely limited number of spots.

Damn, u're pic is HOT! is that really you?

 

[Taus]

from speaking to DOs at TCOM, it seems as if the number of osteopathic residencies is nothing compared to allopathic residencies. sure the DO stigma plays a large role but it's rare to find a DO student that only applies to osteopathic residencies, primarily because of the severely limited number of spots.

Spots in non-primary care specialties are pretty much all clustered in a small handful of states (ie the ones with the older, more established schools).... so geographic reasons also play a big role in the decision for many to go into Allopathic programs

 

[braluk]

Damn, u're pic is HOT! is that really you?

No I believe that yourmom's avatar is Grace Park, correct me if I am wrong though.

 

[PEN15]

No I believe that yourmom's avatar is Grace Park, correct me if I am wrong though.

You are correct. It was also mentioned in an eloquent thread titled "SDN is boring" in the pre-allo forum.

 

[J1515]

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

The answer is yes, allopathic students should be allowed into osteopathic residencies provided they can pass an OMM practical or something along those lines. It's ridiculous the way things are set up now.

On a side note, it's interesting how two "separate" people in the past few days have been harping on the whole "MD vs DO salary" in different threads. Very subtle.

 

[cyclohexanol]

I'm a DO student and see no good reason why that shouldn't be the case ( w/ the residencies...not the whole degree).....but you've got to realize that this issue is loaded w/ politics....it would take a lot to change something like that....

Seconded.

Unfortunately it would require a change of guard at the AOA to get them to open everything up. Imagine a world where all residencies were open to all graduates of [allopathic,osteopathic] medical school... no wait... stop it man...thats CRAZY TALK... YOU ARE MAD!!!

 

[hyperbaric]

Seconded.

Unfortunately it would require a change of guard at the AOA to get them to open everything up. Imagine a world where all residencies were open to all graduates of [allopathic,osteopathic] medical school... no wait... stop it man...thats CRAZY TALK... YOU ARE MAD!!!

Agreed.

 

[hyperbaric]

it's rare to find a DO student that only applies to osteopathic residencies, primarily because of the severely limited number of spots.

i wouldn't say that it is rare. TCOM isn't a good gage for the rest of the osteopathic world.

 

[DragonWell]

I think MDs not being allowed into DO residencies is kind of like affirmative action for Osteopaths. I support the idea of a combined match in principle, but my understanding of the reality on the street is that a good number of allopathic residencies (esp. in competitive specialties) still discriminate against DOs. Having some DO only residencies in fields like Derm and Ortho helps to level the playing field a bit. In an ideal world, everyone would take the same test and be judged on their merit, not the initials after their name.

This post is starting to sound like, "I have a dream..."

 

[63768]

i wouldn't say that it is rare. TCOM isn't a good gage for the rest of the osteopathic world.

well obviously my experience is nothing compared to those actually applying to residencies. if what i stated was wrong, then sorry.

also lol yes my avatar is grace park. if i were really a girl, i wouldn't put a half-naked pic of myself so all the world can see.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

well obviously my experience is nothing compared to those actually applying to residencies. if what i stated was wrong, then sorry.

also lol yes my avatar is grace park. if i were really a girl, i wouldn't put a half-naked pic of myself so all the world can see.

damn u tease

i dont know why they dont expand md programs to more schools and add an OMM specialty....all politics...kind of funny actually..lol.

we do the same f'in thing, but there are two titles......healthcare administrators dont give a **** who they hire, they just want to hire someone who gets the job done and that they can save cash on.

i think in the nxt 30 yrs, there will be a streamlining of our inefficient healthcare system that makes less differentiations between CRNA's PA's MD's DO's etc.......into who can get the job done at the cheapest price.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

someday you'll be working in a team with a DO physician as you SENIOR....in other words, you will be whipped by a PHYSICIAN who is trained in the art of Osteopathic medicine......i dare you to be this arrogant to him/her (if you did, you would end up sticking your foot in your mouth.) oh yeah, you'll also end up seeing a primary care doc when you dont feel well because you DONT KNOW what is wrong with you.....nuff said.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think MDs not being allowed into DO residencies is kind of like affirmative action for Osteopaths. I support the idea of a combined match in principle, but my understanding of the reality on the street is that a good number of allopathic residencies (esp. in competitive specialties) still discriminate against DOs. Having some DO only residencies in fields like Derm and Ortho helps to level the playing field a bit. In an ideal world, everyone would take the same test and be judged on their merit, not the initials after their name.

This post is starting to sound like, "I have a dream..."

The "allo" match is open to DOs, foreign educated folks and the like, i.e. everyone with a medical degree. There are simply too many spots to fill to just have allo schools participate. The DO residencies don't have this numbers problem, so they don't throw open their doors. While folks in the two fields do pretty much the same thing professionally (this is currently true but not historically), they are separate fields and the organizations running the two do not see eye to eye. The fields are competitors (Coca Cola versus a smaller Cola brand) with Coke having such excess capacity that it is willing to share some of its bottling plants. It would require a merger of the organizations to create a mutuality of interests. And it isn't in the smaller Cola leadership's interest to do that, even if a lot of its employees wouldn't mind the Coca Cola brand name. Coca Cola already has a strong organization, is significantly bigger and has to comply with a lot of (LCME) requirements that smaller Cola doesn't. I don't see it happening for a while.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

No. Osteopathic graduates take the same basic sciences that allopathic graduates are tested on, which is why they can take Step 1 but allopathic graduates have not been trained in OMM....so no point taking the COMLEX.

 

[ShyRem]

I think if allo students want to try for an osteopathic residency, then let them take two years of the required OMM classes, take the COMLEX, and apply. The difference is that DO students already take all background classes for the USMLE, but MD students don't take OMM, which is background for COMLEX. That would certainly be more than fair, I think.

 

[8744]

I think if allo students want to try for an osteopathic residency, then let them take two years of the required OMM classes, take the COMLEX, and apply. The difference is that DO students already take all background classes for the USMLE, but MD students don't take OMM, which is background for COMLEX. That would certainly be more than fair, I think.

Yeah, but....nobody I know at the primarily DO hospital where we do some of our rotations uses OMM at all. They look at it as at best a quaint DO tradition. If you can do a DO residency without doing OMM what's the difference?

 

[Law2Doc]

I think if allo students want to try for an osteopathic residency, then let them take two years of the required OMM classes, take the COMLEX, and apply. The difference is that DO students already take all background classes for the USMLE, but MD students don't take OMM, which is background for COMLEX. That would certainly be more than fair, I think.

I think once you start asserting that the MD path is lacking something as compared to DO, you push this into the MD-DO line of threads that so far it has avoided becoming.

The residencies are separate because the professions are separate. Allo chooses to make the USMLE open as it has more spots to fill than bodies. Osteo doesn't. Let's leave it at that.

 

[med-i-cal]

Would you really want to be trained by osteopaths?

Just thought I'd say that in the more competitive osteo residencies (ie Neurosurg, etc) many of the attendings and PD's are MD's. Since there are fewer DO's graduating from these specialities, it's harder to get them to return to teach. This being the case, I think that your comment (semi in jest, I know) is sort of a moot point. What's the difference between being a DO neurosurgery resident in a ACGME program vs a DO neurosurgery resident in a AOA residency taught by ACGME-MD neurosurgeons?

 

[beefballs]

I'm crying on the inside, where it hurts the most.

This thing called love...it burns.

no that is syphillis

 

[beefballs]

The "allo" match is open to DOs, foreign educated folks and the like, i.e. everyone with a medical degree. There are simply too many spots to fill to just have allo schools participate. The DO residencies don't have this numbers problem, so they don't throw open their doors. While folks in the two fields do pretty much the same thing professionally (this is currently true but not historically), they are separate fields and the organizations running the two do not see eye to eye. The fields are competitors (Coca Cola versus a smaller Cola brand) with Coke having such excess capacity that it is willing to share some of its bottling plants. It would require a merger of the organizations to create a mutuality of interests. And it isn't in the smaller Cola leadership's interest to do that, even if a lot of its employees wouldn't mind the Coca Cola brand name. Coca Cola already has a strong organization, is significantly bigger and has to comply with a lot of (LCME) requirements that smaller Cola doesn't. I don't see it happening for a while.

why are you always on here making sense, have you not one mischievous bone in your body-stop being so rational, post a thread about herpes or southpark or something for christs sakes-you're always reinforcing the inkling that I am really immature

 

[braluk]

why are you always on here making sense, have you not one mischievous bone in your body-stop being so rational, post a thread about herpes or southpark or something for christs sakes-you're always reinforcing the inkling that I am really immature

L2D has "matured", i still giggle when i hear Uranus.

 

[cfdavid]

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

I'm sure the biggest reason is due to the fact that there aren't as many of the specialty Osteo programs to go around. And as far as Allo programs like IM, it seems there are plenty of spots, to the extent that they are regularly filled with foreign grads etc. So, it's not as big a deal, I think.

 

[Northerner]

I think if allo students want to try for an osteopathic residency, then let them take two years of the required OMM classes, take the COMLEX, and apply. The difference is that DO students already take all background classes for the USMLE, but MD students don't take OMM, which is background for COMLEX. That would certainly be more than fair, I think.

You're on thin ice, my friend.

 

[deleted77919]

The fields are competitors (Coca Cola versus a smaller Cola brand) with Coke having such excess capacity that it is willing to share some of its bottling plants.

I like this analogy. The next time I see a DO all I'm gonna be able to think is RC cola.

 

[braluk]

that sorta reminds me of this episode (or was it the movie?) of family guy where he and brian are in a desert, and they're dehydrated and seeing things. In the distance on top of a sand dune they saw a soda machine, and ran up to it, and then peter said in disapointment "awww man! It's just RC Cola" and left.

 

[WALKE219]

I am going into my first year at MSUCOM. So take my opinion for what it is worth. I chose to go to MSUCOM because it was the best value for me in Michigan. It was the better of the two MSU schools MD vs. DO (yes, they have both) and much cheaper than UofM. MSUCOM also has a great reputation for putting out great physicians. I did score pretty well on my MCAT (33Q) and had a 3.7. I believe that MSUCOM simply does not put as much emphasis on an MCAT score as many allopathic schools do. Let’s face it, “physical sciences” is a joke anyways for our purposes. They are not hurting for enrollment with a class size of 250 students every year, and they are opening a campus around Detroit of 50 students. 95% of which are MI residents. I do fail to believe that this is all, or even mostly made up of allopathic rejects. So, that being said, I went DO because I believe in the way they teach. This is NOT to say that MD schools do not teach in this manner, but you all get the point. It does seem though like DO tends to be the backup plan for a lot of people, which is okay too. Personally, I would like to see those people go ahead with their dreams at whatever school than give up and move on to some other career that they don't like or care about. These tend to be quite passionate people. I figure if they can pass the boards, (USMLE or COMPLEX) and complete their respective residency (AOA, AMA) then they will *most likely* be competent physicians. In my opinion, I would rather have a U.S trained D.O or M.D over a foreign born one. I am not just saying that because I am in a D.O program either. In fact, many of the first and second year basic sciences at MSU are taught as a collaboration between the allopathic and osteopathic schools. Both D.O and M.D teach the classes at both schools. Both M.D and D.O students are at the same school. Now, onto the residency. I do wish that osteopathic had osteopathic and allopathic had allopathic. However, as we all know this world and country is far from perfect. The fact probably has nothing to do with quality, simply the number of D.O in the country right now isn’t enough to have self sustaining residencies in every specialty out there. I think we will see a day when that is the case though, because osteopathic is the fastest growing sector of health care right now. Now that I am 22, this day probably will be when I am senile, but oh well. I think it is the new and upcoming physician’s responsibilities to recognize one another as competent and to release the stigma. The fact is, we all do two years of basic sciences, two years of clinical and then off to intern and resident. Honestly, for anyone to say that they would be at all concerned having a surgeon or physician with D.O rather than M.D after their name is ignorant. Once again, after residency anyways there is yet another set of initials after the name, and at that point caring about the M.D or D.O is pointless. It gets to the childish point, should I start putting my bachelor’s degree and high school on my lab coat too? That would probably give more people something to talk about. I would like to see allopaths in my residencies. Why the heck not? As long as they can do the COMPLEX if I am required to do the USMLE.
Sorry for the rant. It seems like medical school is Jr. High all over again 😉 I do appreciate this posts attitude though!! It's refreshing.

 

[ShyRem]

You're on thin ice, my friend.

I find it interesting people are getting upset about my comment. It's not meant to be inflammatory, but along the same lines as if you're applying to a research residency, you need a research background. If you don't have it, you won't be considered. It's a background requirement. Same with an osteopathic residency. Many have an OMM component - so if you want to apply, you need the OMM background. Sounds simple enough to me. If there are other allopathic residencies that osteopathic schools don't give the background education for, then osteopathic students should not be considered for those. But I thought both schools taught the same basic courses, with OMM being an additional course for DO schools and perhaps research being additional course for MD schools. There are DO schools that have a research component (even a DO-PhD program some places), but I am unaware of any MD schools that have incorporated the OMM component.

Likewise, there are still allo residencies that will not accept the COMLEX scores, and many DO students take the USMLEs. Seems only fair that if MD students want to apply for DO residencies they should need to take the COMLEX.

My personal opinion is there should be a joint match. But since the AOA is adamently against that one, then I really feel we should open DO residencies to MD students, as long as they fulfill the background requirements. Just as DO students doing a research-oriented residency must fulfill a research background requirement.

Slam me if you wish, but I'm just sayin' the door should swing both ways, as long as folks fulfill the requirements necessary. Not sayin' either is better or worse or harder or easier than the other. Just wanting to be fair.

 

[WALKE219]

P.S - In California, the AMA did try to get rid of D.O BUT they gave all the D.O's the ability to just "become" M.D'S ... so that should say something too, doesn't really seem like the AMA was all that concerned with their abilities. I think most of this crap comes down to the officials in the offices somewhere.

 

[Yellowman]

From a third year med student standpoint..

There's absolutely NO doubt in my mind that MD's and DO's are professional equivalent in every level. However, the fact that DO's take COMLEX as opposed to USMLE indicates that the two are not EQUIVALENT degrees. The fact that a lot of DO students take the USMLE and do well, in my opinion, is not relevant, the mere fact that COMLEX exists is significant. Even though the education at both MD and DO institution may be similar, granting of DO degree is based upon successful completion of medical school and passing COMLEX. Thus, the two degrees inherently cannot be equal. This is not to say that one degree is better than the other, it just means that they are not equal. For example, two degrees (DDS and DMD) exist in dentistry. However, these two degrees are equivalnt as both DDS and DMD students take identical board exams and are also governed by the same student organization. The difference in the two degrees are merely a preference in symantics as some east coast schools prefer latin based degree. Just my humble opinion...

 

[WALKE219]

I do understand what you are saying, and might even agree. However, the COMPLEX is nearly identical to the USMLE, the OMM withstanding. Perhaps comparable to the different "forms" of an exam. (once again, OMM withstanding) I do understand exactly what you are saying, but it is kind of trumped by the fact that the AMA was willing to simply "give" the D.O's in California M.D's. I do believe the two degrees are both equivalent and equal. Simply because every D.O can do what any M.D can. (and with a few classes, vice versa) It is kind of the "separate but equal" philosophy. Arguing inequality would mean that there is a difference in practical application. Now I would agree that a DPM and a D.O/M.D is not equal, simply because there is practical differences. *not an attack on DPMs. It is the governing bodies that these degrees matter most to after all. Although far fetched, the AMA and the AOA could wake up tomorrow and just say screw it, make all M.D's and D.O's D.M's or L.Q's in the U.S if they wanted.

 

[MDDOWhatever]

Would you really want to be trained by osteopaths?

No more than I would want you near me as a doctor, if that's you in the pic. You look kind of like a child molester dressed as a pediatrician.

 

[deleted77919]

I do understand what you are saying, and might even agree. However, the COMPLEX is nearly identical to the USMLE, the OMM withstanding.

I usually try to avoid being too nit-picky, but it is the COMLEX (Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Exam), not the COMPLEX. It might save you from a few giggles from your classmates in the future.

 

[Yellowman]

I do understand what you are saying, and might even agree. However, the COMPLEX is nearly identical to the USMLE, the OMM withstanding. Perhaps comparable to the different "forms" of an exam. (once again, OMM withstanding) I do understand exactly what you are saying, but it is kind of trumped by the fact that the AMA was willing to simply "give" the D.O's in California M.D's. I do believe the two degrees are both equivalent and equal. Simply because every D.O can do what any M.D can. (and with a few classes, vice versa) It is kind of the "separate but equal" philosophy. Arguing inequality would mean that there is a difference in practical application. Now I would agree that a DPM and a D.O/M.D is not equal, simply because there is practical differences. *not an attack on DPMs. It is the governing bodies that these degrees matter most to after all. Although far fetched, the AMA and the AOA could wake up tomorrow and just say screw it, make all M.D's and D.O's D.M's or L.Q's in the U.S if they wanted.

Although you make some excellent points, I must respectfully disagree with you in that MD and DO degrees are equivalent degrees.

1. The fact that two different board exams exist for MD's and DO's suggest that the two degrees are not equivalent. Even though it may be a fact that the two exams are similar in content and even difficulty, the fact that the two exams are not identical means that the two degrees are awarded based on DIFFERENT (though very similar) criterias.

2. Outisde of US, DO's do not and cannot practice full scope medicine as DO's in US do. This further suggests that the two degrees are not equivalent. Thus, the professional equivalency that is seen in US (and in few other countries that I do not know of) are not the norm in a global setting. Whereas a foreign trained MD can practice full scope medicine internationally pending successful passage of board/licensing exam in different countries.

I will reiterate the fact that MD's and DO's are professional equivalent in every way possible in US. This is painfully obvious when a med student starts clerkship...the ONLY thing that matters is that patients receive proper care, and in most efficient way possible. (aka: finish on time so everyone can go home on time). To suggest otherwise would be purely an exercise in ego boosting. Having said that, I also think DO's should take pride in the fact that their degree is unique from their MD counterpart.

 

[Northerner]

I find it interesting people are getting upset about my comment.

Yeah, it's really shocking that you imply a deficiency in an M.D. degree as compared to a D.O. degree and people suggest it's inflammatory.

I think if allo students want to try for an osteopathic residency, then let them take two years of the required OMM classes, take the COMLEX, and apply. The difference is that DO students already take all background classes for the USMLE, but MD students don't take OMM, which is background for COMLEX. That would certainly be more than fair, I think.

Two years? Two years of OMM classes is what you suggest? Obviously, it's not realistic for a 4th year M.D. student to take 2 years of OMM. You were clearly trying to prove a point that OMM is a long and integrated part of your education to which we are not exposed, and that an equivalent difference in coursework doesn't exist for D.O. students who wish to take the USMLE.

Seems only fair that if MD students want to apply for DO residencies they should need to take the COMLEX...

...Slam me if you wish, but I'm just sayin' the door should swing both ways, as long as folks fulfill the requirements necessary. Not sayin' either is better or worse or harder or easier than the other. Just wanting to be fair.

That's a reasonable thing to say, but it's not what you were trying to get across with your original comment.

But I thought both schools taught the same basic courses, with OMM being an additional course for DO schools and perhaps research being additional course for MD schools. There are DO schools that have a research component (even a DO-PhD program some places), but I am unaware of any MD schools that have incorporated the OMM component.

Alright, if you want to be nit-picky - why would it matter whether we had taken the coursework in the classroom before? You haven't taken M.D. coursework before, but allopathic residencies generally allow you to apply as long as you've proven your knowledge on the USMLE. Why would it be inappropriate to say the same to M.D. students (as long as you prove your knowledge on the COMLEX, for example)?

The reason people are getting "upset" about your comment is the same reason you get upset when people denigrate the D.O. degree as compared to the M.D. degree. We're all willing to say they're equivalent in practice, you're walking on thin ice when you start making claims that imply a deficiency in the other. To be honest, it's unlikely that allopathic students really care that D.O. residencies are not open to them, it's more the principle of the thing that is on the table here.