Osteopathic and Allopathic residencies

[Instatewaiter]

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In my opinion, I would rather have a U.S trained D.O or M.D over a foreign born one.

haha.

 

[braluk]

Im curious if such a statistic or fact exist, on relative malpractice rates, or levels patient satisfaction that compares healthcare between DOs, MDs and Foreign-MDs. It'd certainly be interesting to compare.

 

[expat03]

Would you really want to be trained by osteopaths?

Well, my comment was kind of a joke anyway. However, the original poster made a really good point; if the osteopaths wish to be viewed on equal footing, then osteopathic residencies should be available to those who have finished allopathic training (with maybe a mandatory PGY-1 intern year month-long stint to learn the bone massage stuff). Why is it every time someone brings up an unaddressed issue people call it an inchoate "flame war"?

Why is ShyRem "walking on thin ice" but everyone let Anon-y-mouse's comment go by without blinking an eye?

If you are going to be upset about implying deficiencies in a degree then how about you get upset about implying deficiencies in either degree? Or is it that it is only appropriate to be upset if the comment is in regards to the MD degree?

With that being said, I believe that ShyRem was stating a well known fact that OMM is not taught at MD schools. OMM knowledge is tested on COMLEX, along with a practical examination. It only makes sense that if someone at an allopathic school wishes to take the COMLEX, then they should maybe have some training in OMM before they take the test. What a crazy idea...

Alright, if you want to be nit-picky - why would it matter whether we had taken the coursework in the classroom before?

Just to clear this up, OMM does require classroom work, but there is also quite a bit of lab in order to learn the techniques. Also, we do take two years of OMM. It would not be hard for someone in an allopathic school to learn OMM in a shorter period of time. If that was the only class they were taking they could probably do it in under a month, as our classes are about twice a week, maybe three times, sometimes as little as once a week. Maybe there could be an intensive rotation in which you learn about OMM. Either way, I think it is reasonable to say that someone at an allopathic school should probably take some OMM classes, along with labs, or something, before they venture to take the COMLEX.

 

[Law2Doc]

With that being said, I believe that ShyRem was stating a well known fact that OMM is not taught at MD schools. OMM knowledge is tested on COMLEX, along with a practical examination. It only makes sense that if someone at an allopathic school wishes to take the COMLEX, then they should maybe have some training in OMM before they take the test. What a crazy idea...

Just to clear this up, OMM does require classroom work, but there is also quite a bit of lab in order to learn the techniques. Also, we do take two years of OMM. It would not be hard for someone in an allopathic school to learn OMM in a shorter period of time. If that was the only class they were taking they could probably do it in under a month, as our classes are about twice a week, maybe three times, sometimes as little as once a week. Maybe there could be an intensive rotation in which you learn about OMM. Either way, I think it is reasonable to say that someone at an allopathic school should probably take some OMM classes, along with labs, or something, before they venture to take the COMLEX.

I'll try to clear up the thin ice issue (although I don't know that I speak for the other posters who made similar comments on this thread). The gist of ShyRem's comment seemed to be that DO's had "2 years" worth of OMM that MD students did not, but yet that DOs on top of that had the indentical schooling MD had, hence the ability for DOs to take USMLE but MD's inability to take COMLEX. I think what people here found objectionable (on thin ice) was that given the schools are the SAME number of years, and purportedly cover the same subject matter other than OMM, then if you add a course to one, you necessarilly are taking time from something as compared to the other. I know that to add another course to the current allo program schedules I have seen, you would of necessity have to cut down on other things - either in terms of lecture time or study time. So I would suggest that actually, both degrees are "lacking" something the other has. Presumably the USMLE could be rewritten to exploit this time allocation difference (it's possibly a level of detail -- I don't know), but given the number of open spots it needs to fill, it won't. At any rate it's probably a point of contention that is unlikely to be resolved without this thread devolving. But I think that's the reasoning that prompted some of the above comments.

 

[Northerner]

Why is ShyRem "walking on thin ice" but everyone let Anon-y-mouse's comment go by without blinking an eye?

To be honest, it just seemed too extreme to take it seriously or warrant a real response, why encourage him.

If you are going to be upset about implying deficiencies in a degree then how about you get upset about implying deficiencies in either degree? Or is it that it is only appropriate to be upset if the comment is in regards to the MD degree?

I agree. I expect you to defend yourselves when someone suggests a deficiency in a D.O. degree, and many M.D. students, including myself, will defend you to a reasonable extent as well.

With that being said, I believe that ShyRem was stating a well known fact that OMM is not taught at MD schools. OMM knowledge is tested on COMLEX, along with a practical examination. It only makes sense that if someone at an allopathic school wishes to take the COMLEX, then they should maybe have some training in OMM before they take the test. What a crazy idea...

Agreed...you provide rationale for my contention in your next paragraph:

It would not be hard for someone in an allopathic school to learn OMM in a shorter period of time. If that was the only class they were taking they could probably do it in under a month, as our classes are about twice a week, maybe three times, sometimes as little as once a week. Maybe there could be an intensive rotation in which you learn about OMM. Either way, I think it is reasonable to say that someone at an allopathic school should probably take some OMM classes, along with labs, or something, before they venture to take the COMLEX.

Well....sort of. The point is that a person can't be outraged that M.D. students would be allowed to take the COMLEX to compete for your D.O. residency spots when they haven't formally taken D.O. coursework (but perhaps have had an "equivalent" of some sort as you suggested) when D.O. students do not formally take M.D. coursework (the equivalent of it, however they do) but are allowed to take the USMLE nonetheless. As are foreign medical grads, who take the "equivalent" coursework. Hopefully the point is clear.

(Incidentally, it is my opinion and the opinion of most that the degrees are pretty much entirely equivalent in practice, and furthermore that D.O. residency programs are justified in holding their spots for D.O. students. I have not implied a deficiency in the D.O. degree, rather I am responding to subtle claims that one exists in the M.D.)

 

[Taus]

I'll try to clear up the thin ice issue (although I don't know that I speak for the other posters who made similar comments on this thread). The gist of ShyRem's comment seemed to be that DO's had "2 years" worth of OMM that MD students did not, but yet that DOs on top of that had the indentical schooling MD had, hence the ability for DOs to take USMLE but MD's inability to take COMLEX. I think what people here found objectionable (on thin ice) was that given the schools are the SAME number of years, and purportedly cover the same subject matter other than OMM, then if you add a course to one, you necessarilly are taking time from something as compared to the other. I know that to add another course to the current allo program schedules I have seen, you would of necessity have to cut down on other things - either in terms of lecture time or study time. So I would suggest that actually, both degrees are "lacking" something the other has. Presumably the USMLE could be rewritten to exploit this time allocation difference (it's possibly a level of detail -- I don't know), but given the number of open spots it needs to fill, it won't. At any rate it's probably a point of contention that is unlikely to be resolved without this thread devolving. But I think that's the reasoning that prompted some of the above comments.

b/c this thread has remained mostly civil and not the usual pointless ignorant drivel...I'll weigh in w/ some thoughts on this as an Osteopathic student

re the bolded line: It sort of does....you won't find much Biochem and Molecular on the COMLEX. I think that also plays into the research focus of many MD schools. Honestly...outside of research, who gives a *&^* about any biochem or molecular that isn't absolutely relevant to common disease processes. We learn all of the nitty-gritty details in our classes in it, as do you, but unless a biochem or molecular process comes up in path/pathophys, we really don't revisit it.

I think the fairest statement one could make about the coursework is that we all take the same basic science, but we have "a little" less time to study that because of OMM. I put "a little" in quotes because, honestly, a few hours of week in lab and 1-2 hours a week in lecture is not that much. One night of studying before an OMM written or practical exam is usually sufficient. That really doesn't amount to much time.

Bottom line....if an MD student wanted to take a condensed didactic and practical based course spanning about 200 hours (~40 hours a week x 4-5 weeks isn't too unreasonable...just like a rotation) in OMM...they should be able to take the COMLEX

 

[expat03]

I'm glad, in the end, we can all get along 😉

 

[WALKE219]

I agree with your last point fully, and like I said, I don't even necessarily disagree with your overall point. I like that I will be getting a D.O.
For the point of saying it - U.S D.O schools are the only D.O schools that have a clinical rotation, that's why they can fully practice here and not some other countries. Most foreign D.O schools focus simply on the OMM and they tend to compete more in the chiropractic type fields. Although U.S trained tend to have more practice rights. I have been hearing the WHO is also giving full rights to U.S D.O as well. So I think this might be why overall in the world, D.O is VERY different. But good point.

 

[WALKE219]

I really wonder about this too, I mean I think it would have to be adjusted obviously because of the 5% that are D.O. I can only guess that since communication is key, as long as a foreign born physician can effectively communicate in English, there shouldn't be a problem. I know we all have been around those physicians who can hardly speak English and I think we can all agree this presents quite a problem. I did search google for awhile, and I couldn't find anything really about it, but if you do, I would be interested.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

To be honest, it just seemed too extreme to take it seriously or warrant a real response, why encourage him.

Just to clarify, the "kind of" referred to the commonly held notion, even in osteopathic circles, that a lot of osteopath-only training programs are not very good. I personally don't care otherwise, although I know they're digging a hole for themselves by maintaining these spots for themselves.

 

[inshanesworld]

This topic is so hashed...

Just to provide some background....

The reason that there are MD and DO in this country is because in the 1800's there were three major groups fighting it out as far as what was the cause of disease and the best medicine for it. These were the allopaths, the osteopaths, and the homeopaths. Now it should be known that these terms were invented by the person responsible for the homeopathic movement, and that the term allopath was actually quite offensive. But hundreds of years later how cares. Anyhow, as it turns out the allopaths (who formed the AMA in the 1840's) won. Their methods, thanks to science, now dominate the land as evidenced by the osteopaths trying to conform (and even eliminating the very thing that distinguished them from the allopaths to begin with) and the homeopaths living on the fringe. Now we live in a wonderful time where the lion eats straw like the ox and the suckling child places its hand on the cockatrice den. Where DO's and MD's and BA's in Interpretive Dance frolic in the lilies and all is well. The moral is let bygones be bygones and continue in our mutual mission to try not to kill people.

 

[braluk]

This topic is so hashed...

Just to provide some background....

The reason that there are MD and DO in this country is because in the 1800's there were three major groups fighting it out as far as what was the cause of disease and the best medicine for it. These were the allopaths, the osteopaths, and the homeopaths. Now it should be known that these terms were invented by the person responsible for the homeopathic movement, and that the term allopath was actually quite offensive. But hundreds of years later how cares. Anyhow, as it turns out the allopaths (who formed the AMA in the 1840's) won. Their methods, thanks to science, now dominate the land as evidenced by the osteopaths trying to conform (and even eliminating the very thing that distinguished them from the allopaths to begin with) and the homeopaths living on the fringe. Now we live in a wonderful time where the lion eats straw like the ox and the suckling child places its hand on the cockatrice den. Where DO's and MD's and BA's in Interpretive Dance frolic in the lilies and all is well. The moral is let bygones be bygones and continue in our mutual mission to try not to kill people.

what about the the sociopaths? o wait i forgot thats the umbrella group for all docs

 

[DragonWell]

This topic is so hashed...

Just to provide some background....

The reason that there are MD and DO in this country is because in the 1800's there were three major groups fighting it out as far as what was the cause of disease and the best medicine for it. These were the allopaths, the osteopaths, and the homeopaths.

What about the Eclectics? Yet another American medical system doomed by the Flexner Report. Great Post BTW.

 

[BlondeCookie]

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

Good point! Seems really unfair. If DOs can have access to allopathic residencies, then MDs should have access to osteopathic residencies. That would only be fair.

 

[MossPoh]

Good point! Seems really unfair. If DOs can have access to allopathic residencies, then MDs should have access to osteopathic residencies. That would only be fair.

When you get rid of any discrimination, whether it is purposeful or not, and allow DOs the same chance into the competitive residencies such as plastics, ortho, derm, etc. with relativley equal footing system wide then it would be unfair to have a seperate set of programs. As it is now, I believe (aside from politics) it has much more to do wiith the availability and access of the residencies that are tougher to obtain. You most likley won't go matchless in Internal Medicine, family practice or any of those...unless you are a horrendous student who tries bombing the same locations he/she interviewed at...in which case you may not match.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Since Osteopathic graduates can take the USMLE and apply to Allopathic residencies, shouldn't Allopathic grads be allowed to take the COMLEX (after appropriate training in OMM) and be allowed to apply to Osteopathic training programs.

I believe they should. This would allow MD's that wanted to pursue training in fields such as rads, ortho etc the opportunity to compete for these programs in the Osteopathic training programs.

In the end we all get paid the same. Why are Osteopaths allowed into Allopathic programs but the reverse is still not done?

Can you imagine what would happen to osteopathic residency positions like let say in dermatology? There are what... 40-42 positions for PGY1-2? There'd be no more osteopathic students going into dermatology because there are going to be a lot more allopathic students applying to those derm spots.

Same with all the surgical subspecialties, etc. Competition for these specialties is bad enough now as it is in the osteopathic world. If the allopathic students entered the fray there would be fewer and fewer osteopathic students entering into specialties because there would be even more competition.

And take this into account - even with the recent DO school expansion, that will be nothing compared to the upcomming MD expansions.

 

[ShyRem]

cats, i really disagree with you on this one. I think physicians should be judged on their merits, not on the letters after their name. If you want everyone else to see DO/MD as *truly* equal, you must have a fair playing field. And that means having both matches open to everyone. However, I think if an allo student wants to get into an osteo residency, they should have to take (and pass) OMM classes before they apply for those positions. Not an 'essentials' class, but a class that covers everything an osteopathic student is taught. if that takes 2 condensed months, great. If it takes 6 months, great. Then they should be more than free to compete for the osteopathic residency spots.

 

[Taus]

cats, i really disagree with you on this one. I think physicians should be judged on their merits, not on the letters after their name. If you want everyone else to see DO/MD as *truly* equal, you must have a fair playing field. And that means having both matches open to everyone. However, I think if an allo student wants to get into an osteo residency, they should have to take (and pass) OMM classes before they apply for those positions. Not an 'essentials' class, but a class that covers everything an osteopathic student is taught. if that takes 2 condensed months, great. If it takes 6 months, great. Then they should be more than free to compete for the osteopathic residency spots.

can't argue w/ that...

 

[FenderHM]

Can you imagine what would happen to osteopathic residency positions like let say in dermatology? There are what... 40-42 positions for PGY1-2? There'd be no more osteopathic students going into dermatology because there are going to be a lot more allopathic students applying to those derm spots.

Same with all the surgical subspecialties, etc. Competition for these specialties is bad enough now as it is in the osteopathic world. If the allopathic students entered the fray there would be fewer and fewer osteopathic students entering into specialties because there would be even more competition.

And take this into account - even with the recent DO school expansion, that will be nothing compared to the upcomming MD expansions.

I agree with Shy fair is fair, you can't say that you shouldn't allow MDs to apply to those derm DO rez spots if you also want to say that DO=MD as far as physician skills.

Bottom line, its a competitive world. If DOs want to protect themselves as a separate "league" of physicians with their own residency spots, thats ok, but don't expect people to think that the difference between MD/DO is only in philosophy not it skill/knowledge. If you want DO=MD then open your spots and work really hard to rock the comlex and get the derm spots anyway...

 

[CatsandCradles]

cats, i really disagree with you on this one. I think physicians should be judged on their merits, not on the letters after their name. If you want everyone else to see DO/MD as *truly* equal, you must have a fair playing field. And that means having both matches open to everyone. However, I think if an allo student wants to get into an osteo residency, they should have to take (and pass) OMM classes before they apply for those positions. Not an 'essentials' class, but a class that covers everything an osteopathic student is taught. if that takes 2 condensed months, great. If it takes 6 months, great. Then they should be more than free to compete for the osteopathic residency spots.

I agree with Shy fair is fair, you can't say that you shouldn't allow MDs to apply to those derm DO rez spots if you also want to say that DO=MD as far as physician skills.

Bottom line, its a competitive world. If DOs want to protective themselves as a separate "league" of physicians with their own residency spots, thats ok, but don't expect people to think that the difference between MD/DO is only in philosophy not it skill/knowledge. If you want DO=MD then open your spots and work really hard to rock the comlex and get the derm spots anyway...

ShyRem, FenderHM -- I don't disagree with you guys, but perhaps the way I worded the post suggested that I am against merit and academics qualifications. I agree with you guys - it just made me a little uneasy what would happen. Let me explain why. I mean lets say there are 10 osteopathic residency positions. And let's say this residency was one that is of high demand. Competition is high, and only the very best are going to be able to land a spot at this hospital. Now let's pretend that 50 osteopathic student apply to it.

But let's assume the political barriers drop, and now 300 allopathic students apply...

Chances are there are going to be plenty of those allopathic students having really good scores - and I'm willing to bet that of those 300, at least 100 of them are going to have equal or better scores than the osteopaths. Sure we could argue that COMLEX-USA emphasizes pharmacology and disease up the purple walloo - but I think it's fair to say that because of large size alone, at least 100 of those allopathic students are going to perform just as well on OPP or better than a lot of the 50 osteopathic students.

So I agree, everything should be merit based - just be prepared - cause nearly all those osteopathic residencies spots are going to end up going to the allopaths because of sheer numbers. A 30% expansion by the LCME schools is going to be way way more than all the students in all osteopathic programs combined.

Taus, All those Philadelphia COM specialty residencies are gonna get eaten up by UPenn, Drexel, Temple, Jefferson, and MCP Hanneman. There won't be any room for CatsandCradles if he wants to come back to Philadelphia.



Please don't hesitate to comment. I'm open to all good criticisms.

C&C

 

[Hernandez]

cats, i really disagree with you on this one. I think physicians should be judged on their merits, not on the letters after their name. If you want everyone else to see DO/MD as *truly* equal, you must have a fair playing field. And that means having both matches open to everyone. However, I think if an allo student wants to get into an osteo residency, they should have to take (and pass) OMM classes before they apply for those positions. Not an 'essentials' class, but a class that covers everything an osteopathic student is taught. if that takes 2 condensed months, great. If it takes 6 months, great. Then they should be more than free to compete for the osteopathic residency spots.

I actually agree to an extent. Osteopathic spots should be open to MD students as long as they pass the OMM requirements, and the discrimination that goes on in the more competitive allopathic spots should be stopped. But until the day the competitive allopathic spots do not look down on DOs, the AOA is going to protect their specialty spots if nothing else but to show that we're just as capable of fulfilling these spots as an MD. If we were to open up all osteopathic programs to MDs, there would be a massive displacement of DOs from our residencies simple due to the massive numbers discrepancy between how many MDs and DOs graduate on a yearly basis, not because we're less qualified, but because there would be a massive influx of more people who are far more competitive with the number game. So you'll have to forgive the AOA if they are hesitant to relegate what little specialty programs we have to MDs.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I actually agree to an extent. Osteopathic spots should be open to MD students as long as they pass the OMM requirements, and the discrimination that goes on in the more competitive allopathic spots should be stopped. But until the day the competitive allopathic spots do not look down on DOs, the AOA is going to protect their specialty spots if nothing else but to show that we're just as capable of fulfilling these spots as an MD. If we were to open up all osteopathic programs to MDs, there would be a massive displacement of DOs from our residencies simple due to the massive numbers discrepancy between how many MDs and DOs graduate on a yearly basis, not because we're less qualified, but because there would be a massive influx of more people who are far more competitive with the number game. So you'll have to forgive the AOA if they are hesitant to relegate what little specialty programs we have to MDs.

How can you really quantify this?! You are saying that there for the exact amount of "DO discrimination" in the top residencies, there is a commensurate amount of "DO protection" with respect to DO-only residencies, and it cancels out.

 

[Hernandez]

How can you really quantify this?! You are saying that there for the exact amount of "DO discrimination" in the top residencies, there is a commensurate amount of "DO protection" with respect to DO-only residencies, and it cancels out.

I never said it cancels out, but it's definitively a protective measure by the AOA to assure that they are not relegated to primary care only. And with the history of the AMA and AOA, it's not surprising to see the AOA reluctant to relinquish coveted positions.

Without a doubt, you can not quantify the converse of your point, and I'd have a hard time buying that argument with the sheer numbers of MD vs DO graduates. With what, 125 MD schools vs 23 DO schools, the pool of similarly qualified candidates would increase massively and potentially displace many osteopathic students from osteopathic residencies should they just open up all DO spots to MDs

 

[anon-y-mouse]

With what, 125 MD schools vs 20 something DO schools, the pool of similarly qualified candidates would increase massively and potentially displace many osteopathic students from osteopathic residencies should they just open up all DO spots to MDs

Other than the fact that the MD spots are *already* open to DO's...

 

[FenderHM]

I never said it cancels out, but it's definitively a protective measure by the AOA to assure that they are not relegated to primary care only. And with the history of the AMA and AOA, it's not surprising to see the AOA reluctant to relinquish coveted positions.

Without a doubt, you can not quantify the converse of your point, and I'd have a hard time buying that argument with the sheer numbers of MD vs DO graduates. With what, 125 MD schools vs 23 DO schools, the pool of similarly qualified candidates would increase massively and potentially displace many osteopathic students from osteopathic residencies should they just open up all DO spots to MDs

I just dont see how DOs can claim they're as knowledgable and skilled as MDs unless they compete with MDs for their residencies. Imagine how pissed you'd be if AMA closed off MD spots to DOs...(impossible cause demand is too high now, but what about when those new MD schools open?)

 

[DragonWell]

Other than the fact that the MD spots are *already* open to DO's...

My understanding is that there still seems to be some question about exactly how open MD residencies really are to DO students. (Outside of primary care, that is.) Sure, the AMA can pass a resolution, but does that really guarantee everybody gets an equal shot?

 

[Northerner]

I just dont see how DOs can claim they're as knowledgable and skilled as MDs unless they compete with MDs for their residencies. Imagine how pissed you'd be if AMA closed off MD spots to DOs...(impossible cause demand is too high now, but what about when those new MD schools open?)

Interesting point.

Another, more basic question to consider is - why are allopathic residencies open to D.O.'s at all? Why not keep separate residencies to make everyone happy? The only reason there's argument over D.O. residencies currently is because not because the residencies themselves are desirable, but rather that there is a glaring hypocrisy that excludes M.D.'s from the same privileges they extend to D.O.'s. It doesn't add up, and that inequitable principle is what is being debated, not the actual residencies themselves. Realistically, if allopathic residencies were pared down or if allopathic enrollment were scaled up, would allopathic residencies be open to D.O.'s in light of osteopathic residencies' exclusion to M.D.'s? Doubt it.

 

[Hardbody]

Interesting point.

Another, more basic question to consider is - why are allopathic residencies open to D.O.'s at all? Why not keep separate residencies to make everyone happy? The only reason there's argument over D.O. residencies currently is because not because the residencies themselves are desirable, but rather that there is a glaring hypocrisy that excludes M.D.'s from the same privileges they extend to D.O.'s. It doesn't add up, and that inequitable principle is what is being debated, not the actual residencies themselves. Realistically, if allopathic residencies were pared down or if allopathic enrollment were scaled up, would allopathic residencies be open to D.O.'s in light of osteopathic residencies' exclusion to M.D.'s? Doubt it.

Because there are not enough osteopathic residencies for every D.O. graduate, while there are excess allopathic residencies (as evidenced by the number of FMGs in allo residencies). Government funding is very thin for new residency programs. To have the number of osteopathic residencies available to D.O. graduates would simply make too much sense, therefore it will never happen.

 

[tkim]

Interesting point.

Another, more basic question to consider is - why are allopathic residencies open to D.O.'s at all? Why not keep separate residencies to make everyone happy? The only reason there's argument over D.O. residencies currently is because not because the residencies themselves are desirable, but rather that there is a glaring hypocrisy that excludes M.D.'s from the same privileges they extend to D.O.'s. It doesn't add up, and that inequitable principle is what is being debated, not the actual residencies themselves. Realistically, if allopathic residencies were pared down or if allopathic enrollment were scaled up, would allopathic residencies be open to D.O.'s in light of osteopathic residencies' exclusion to M.D.'s? Doubt it.

I'd argue that there are some DO residencies in traditionally competitve specialities, i.e., derm, neurosurg, ortho, rads, that people would like to see open to increase the absolute number of programs they can apply to.

Second, a lot of DO's apply to the perceived less desirable primary care specialties, so closing those off to DO's would mean either a drop in enrollment and a loss of funding from the government, or an increase in the number of FMG/IMG applicants enrolled.

It's a symbiosis that works somewhat.

But, barring the lack of the OMM skillset which isn't used by many DO's, I'd open up the DO match and move towards a combined match and resdiency.

In the end, we agree.

 

[Hernandez]

Other than the fact that the MD spots are *already* open to DO's...

I never said it was a fully equitable situation. But I do not blame the Osteopathic world for their hesitancy on giving up their spots they created and worked for after all the work it took to be recognized and all of the legal loopholes the AMA tried to force Osteopathic medicine into a limited scope practice. But in an ideal world, the match, the residencies, would be integrated.

I just dont see how DOs can claim they're as knowledgable and skilled as MDs unless they compete with MDs for their residencies. Imagine how pissed you'd be if AMA closed off MD spots to DOs...(impossible cause demand is too high now, but what about when those new MD schools open?)

🙄 I guess you can't possibly be as "knowledgable" (sic) as an MD unless you go to an MD school? The AMA president in somewhere around 1950 put forth a report which acknowledged that Osteopathic education was equal to the MD counterparts. The name of the report eludes me at the moment and I don't have the time to look it up for you.

But I'm curious how you equate competition for residencies as the same as demonstration of who's more "knowledgable." It's been my experience that the match is more of a do I like you game as much as it is a numbers game. Now if you were to advocate the transition to have all Osteopathic students take the USMLE in addition to a separate OMM/OPP boards, I'd fully support that, as I have my misgivings about COMLEX (with the disclaimer, about the quality of questions as I was trained by one of the best pathology instructors in the Nation and found COMLEX to be a step down in quality of questions than I was use to, not about the statistical relevance of the results).

And I would not loose a bit of sleep if the ACGME closed off their spots to osteopaths, it would be unfortunate, but it wouldn't bother me a bit. But let's face it, you and others like you are simply wanting these spots to open up because you view them as easier to get into, and that simply is not true. My main point in this, is this will never happen due to historical reasons without some sort of assurance that osteopathic medicine will not be relegated like it was in California in the 60s to the title of md instead of DO.

 

[Hernandez]

I'd argue that there are some DO residencies in traditionally competitve specialities, i.e., derm, neurosurg, ortho, rads, that people would like to see open to increase the absolute number of programs they can apply to.

Second, a lot of DO's apply to the perceived less desirable primary care specialties, so closing those off to DO's would mean either a drop in enrollment and a loss of funding from the government, or an increase in the number of FMG/IMG applicants enrolled.

It's a symbiosis that works somewhat.

But, barring the lack of the OMM skillset which isn't used by many DO's, I'd open up the DO match and move towards a combined match and resdiency.

In the end, we agree.

Agreed on all points.

 

[Northerner]

I never said it was a fully equitable situation. But I do not blame the Osteopathic world for their hesitancy on giving up their spots they created and worked for after all the work it took to be recognized and all of the legal loopholes the AMA tried to force Osteopathic medicine into a limited scope practice. But in an ideal world, the match, the residencies, would be integrated.



🙄 I guess you can't possibly be as "knowledgable" (sic) as an MD unless you go to an MD school? The AMA president in somewhere around 1950 put forth a report which acknowledged that Osteopathic education was equal to the MD counterparts. The name of the report eludes me at the moment and I don't have the time to look it up for you.

But I'm curious how you equate competition for residencies as the same as demonstration of who's more "knowledgable." It's been my experience that the match is more of a do I like you game as much as it is a numbers game. Now if you were to advocate the transition to have all Osteopathic students take the USMLE in addition to a separate OMM/OPP boards, I'd fully support that, as I have my misgivings about COMLEX (with the disclaimer, about the quality of questions as I was trained by one of the best pathology instructors in the Nation and found COMLEX to be a step down in quality of questions than I was use to, not about the statistical relevance of the results).

And I would not loose a bit of sleep if the ACGME closed off their spots to osteopaths, it would be unfortunate, but it wouldn't bother me a bit. But let's face it, you and others like you are simply wanting these spots to open up because you view them as easier to get into, and that simply is not true. My main point in this, is this will never happen due to historical reasons without some sort of assurance that osteopathic medicine will not be relegated like it was in California in the 60s to the title of md instead of DO.

You're probably right.

 

[FenderHM]

I never said it was a fully equitable situation. But I do not blame the Osteopathic world for their hesitancy on giving up their spots they created and worked for after all the work it took to be recognized and all of the legal loopholes the AMA tried to force Osteopathic medicine into a limited scope practice. But in an ideal world, the match, the residencies, would be integrated.



🙄 I guess you can't possibly be as "knowledgable" (sic) as an MD unless you go to an MD school? The AMA president in somewhere around 1950 put forth a report which acknowledged that Osteopathic education was equal to the MD counterparts. The name of the report eludes me at the moment and I don't have the time to look it up for you.

But I'm curious how you equate competition for residencies as the same as demonstration of who's more "knowledgable." It's been my experience that the match is more of a do I like you game as much as it is a numbers game. Now if you were to advocate the transition to have all Osteopathic students take the USMLE in addition to a separate OMM/OPP boards, I'd fully support that, as I have my misgivings about COMLEX (with the disclaimer, about the quality of questions as I was trained by one of the best pathology instructors in the Nation and found COMLEX to be a step down in quality of questions than I was use to, not about the statistical relevance of the results).

And I would not loose a bit of sleep if the ACGME closed off their spots to osteopaths, it would be unfortunate, but it wouldn't bother me a bit. But let's face it, you and others like you are simply wanting these spots to open up because you view them as easier to get into, and that simply is not true. My main point in this, is this will never happen due to historical reasons without some sort of assurance that osteopathic medicine will not be relegated like it was in California in the 60s to the title of md instead of DO.

im sorry dont get me wrong I have the utmost respect for osteopathic medicine and I think that allopaths could learn a thing or two from them. Alls I'm saying is that if you want to truly be accepted as equals then you wouldn't mind allopaths applying to your residency spots!

 

[allendo]

im sorry dont get me wrong I have the utmost respect for osteopathic medicine and I think that allopaths could learn a thing or two from them. Alls I'm saying is that if you want to truly be accepted as equals then you wouldn't mind allopaths applying to your residency spots!

It's really not us that minds! It's the AOA

 

[Hernandez]

Alls I'm saying is that if you want to truly be accepted as equals then you wouldn't mind allopaths applying to your residency spots!

If all things were equal, you'd be correct. But as with all things humans are invested in, there are other factors at play which impede the intergration of the professions, money and politics.

 

[Al2VCOM]

i'm not trying to create a flame war....although with a site filled with a lot of egos, things rarely are discussed without emotions

i am just saying, since there really is no difference in the practice of most DO and MD physicians, shouldnt we be allowed to compete in their residency pools as they compete in hours.

lets be honest, MD's and DO's work together, get paid the same and generally the patient doesnt know the difference (I dont even believe there is a difference when you look at their practices). So, shouldnt we be allowed to compete for their competetive residency pools after OMM training?

some of the OMM skills are actually pretty cool and i wouldnt mind getting trained in them as an allopathic doc.

since our fields are basically the same, the future of medicine in the US would seem as though it could benefit through a meshing of the DO and MD worlds. as it stands, they can mesh in our world but we cant mesh in theirs.

I am a DO student as well, I think it wastes space when LEFTOVER DO spots go unoccupied, when, in my opinion, DO FM has a lot to offer. I think we should dually accredit all programs while working towards a united test with OMM practicals for those who wish to use OMM (more than you might think).