Other countries where dentists do well

[Dr.Millisevert]

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Are the majority of those "down under" welcoming to those of us from the US?

BTW: Milliservert, the things you say on this forum make so much sense. I have a lot of really conservative friends who always tell me what a wonderful place the US is; and don’t get me wrong, I’m very thankful. I served in the military and am going to UG under aid designed for vets; however, I don’t think there is anything that special about the US anymore.

Our schools (primary education) are failing, we don’t produce anything, most good jobs are in the financial sector and we outsource technical/engineering, we're very unhealthy, etc etc etc. I dont think we can really say we're "exceptional" anymore because on almost every metric we're not. Also, as you put it, I think there is a brain drain that will be occurring too as our leaders pull funding from important research.

To be clear, one of our potential VP's commented on how much money we're wasting on a "fruit fly" when infact she was talking about medical genetic research being done using drosophila as an animal model. She received applause for that one

Yes, in general Americans and Canadians are very welcome in Australia!

Australia is a pretty welcoming place to most everyone though. I have a few patients who were born in the states, but either because of work, marriage, or other reason have expatriated to Australia. Most of them are now Australian citizens.. some also still hold their American citizenship and some have given up their US citizenship and passport.

I love Americans. They are some of the most genuinely nice people I have ever met. I have visited the states a few times myself.. and I love it there. I think its a great place for a holiday. ..but I can't say that I would ever want to settle there and raise my family.

 

[mmdpkaaa]

Yes, Sydney is expensive (one of the most expensive places to live on the planet) so I can't argue with you there.

Are you American/Canadian? When did you visit Sydney? Australia is the most removed place on earth (maybe NZ being more so) 🙂 ... so sometimes we don't have "every brand" on earth. .. but the major cities (Melb and Syd) have most everything you would find in London, NYC, etc. What did you feel specifically was lacking? We just got our first CostCo in Sydney recently if that makes you feel better. haha

That being said.. the fact that we are so far removed from everything else is one of the reasons that make this place so safe and nice to live in. 😉

yes, there are a few prosthos in Sydney and Melb... if you wanted to go to a smaller city, then you would probably do well as a prostho. ... but that being said, you'd do well as a general dentist in a smaller city too (if by well you mean financially). Your UK prostho training (should you decide to complete it) would be well respected here (if you decided to move and work in Australia afterwards) and you would be eligible to sit the MRACDS (Pros) and/or FRACDS (Pros) specialty exams (aka board certification).

Bottom line.. if you really want to live in the UK and you are really passionate about Pros... then by all means .. go for it.

However,
If you want to live and work in Australia long term and are interested in pros. I'd suggest applying to do your Pros training in Australia and sitting the licensure exams here. 👍

NO i am a UK citizen and completed all my education in the UK. TO be honest i dont see myself being here long term and am seriosuly considering Australia

I visited Sydney/Melb in June this year. I found little things odd but maybe not a reflection of all of Australia. For example there were only 2 supermarkets - coles and woolworths, whereas in the UK there are many many more, so there is alot more choice, more competition for prices etc. I just found there is generally alot more choice in many things in the UK, and with the weak british pound things seemed extremely expensive in Oz.
However Im sure other aspects certainly make up for it and i really did enjoy my time there.

The fact that the system is fully private is great for dentists. What can an efficient dentist with 5+ years experience with a busy book expect to make for example in a suburb of melbourne?

thanks for your help...

I would definitely want to be within 10-15 miles of a major city (ideally melbourne or maybe sydney). I was actually just offered a job in Eastlakes, NSW full time which i am considering...any ideas what the area is like?

 

[charlestweed]

... however, I don’t think there is anything that special about the US anymore.

USA is the greatest country in the world period. I am so proud to be a naturalized citizen of this exceptional nation. People from other countries come here so they can receive the best education, healthcare, and investment opportunities in the US. I know a lot of foreign trained dentists who have tried very hard to obtain the working visas so they can legally stay in the US after completing their residency training ….they know that only America can give them the opportunity to make a lot of money.

I have a lot of friends and relatives (my wife, my brother in law, my aunts, my uncles) who came to the US when they were 20-30 years old. They had no money. They didn’t speak any English. They were too old for high school. They took ESL and Science classes at the community colleges and then transferred to 4-year Universities. Now, They are running successful businesses as physicians, dentists, pharmacists, and optometrists etc. What other countries beside the USA that can offer such great opportunity? Don’t tell me Canada. According to other SDN posts, I heard that it is extremely difficult to get accepted to Canadian dental/medical schools….and it is so damn cold there.

US citizens pay lower income taxes and there is no VAT tax. Everybody owns a car here….don’t have to worry about the inconvenience of public transportation. Gas price is also cheap here (I hope our pro-environment politicians won’t force me to drive a tiny fuel efficiency car because driving a V8 is so much fun). Each US household has more than one TV set. The list goes on and on.

 

[somedayDDS]

USA is the greatest country in the world period. I am so proud to be a naturalized citizen of this exceptional nation. People from other countries come here so they can receive the best education, healthcare, and investment opportunities in the US. I know a lot of foreign trained dentists who have tried very hard to obtain the working visas so they can legally stay in the US after completing their residency training ….they know that only America can give them the opportunity to make a lot of money.

I have a lot of friends and relatives (my wife, my brother in law, my aunts, my uncles) who came to the US when they were 20-30 years old. They had no money. They didn’t speak any English. They were too old for high school. They took ESL and Science classes at the community colleges and then transferred to 4-year Universities. Now, They are running successful businesses as physicians, dentists, pharmacists, and optometrists etc. What other countries beside the USA that can offer such great opportunity? Don’t tell me Canada. According to other SDN posts, I heard that it is extremely difficult to get accepted to Canadian dental/medical schools….and it is so damn cold there.

US citizens pay lower income taxes and there is no VAT tax. Everybody owns a car here….don’t have to worry about the inconvenience of public transportation. Gas price is also cheap here (I hope our pro-environment politicians won’t force me to drive a tiny fuel efficiency car because driving a V8 is so much fun). Each US household has more than one TV set. The list goes on and on.

Pretty biased statement I'd say. Many other countries offer great opportunities.

 

[whodat4life]

The only thing that really scares me is how the government is destroying the middle class (especially the upper middle class)....which is exactly what category a private practice dentist is most likely in. America is about to change A LOT in the next 5 years or so, especially when this new healthcare bill hits. I don't really know how hard it will hit dentists, but what I'm scared of is people running from medicine over to dentistry. When that happens, the dental schools just keep opening more and more schools and producing WAYYYY too many dentists. The economy is really weak right now, so they know there will always be fools that will pay 500k+ to get a dental education if they blow the "you can make 250k right out of school" line up their rears...and that's how they will make it. People that can't work (high unemployment at record high) will not be able to afford dental insurance anymore...and no one can afford to pay the massive prices out of pocket when needing dental work. I understand that dentists have to make prices high sometimes to offset their own skyrocketing bills, but it's nonetheless something to think about. I hate sounding like such a pessimist but it really is a serious possibility. I love America more than words can explain, but DC is screwing this country up so bad right now. In 10-15 years, you won't even recognize this country.

 

[zenman]

I have a really cute dentist I go to in Bangkok. I just can't pronounce her name! 😀

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

….only America can give them the opportunity to make a lot of money.

Don't know if I would go THAT far.. 🙂

Everybody owns a car here….don't have to worry about the inconvenience of public transportation. Gas price is also cheap here (I hope our pro-environment politicians won't force me to drive a tiny fuel efficiency car because driving a V8 is so much fun).

Trust me.. I like nice cars too.. but to be honest. Parking is a B_i_t_c_h in Sydney (as I'm sure it is in NYC as well). I'm not a huge fan of buses.. but Sydney has a great train system (which is constantly getting expanded and improved on). Maybe you don't like public transport because the city you live in has a crap public transport system that is dirty, unsafe, and does not run on time... Personally I take the Sydney train whenever I can as its clean, safe, fast, and I don't have to worry about driving around for 20 min looking for a parking spot or having to pay an arm and leg to park in a private lot. Plus busy cities where everyone drives everywhere.. (LA, most cities in China, etc) have really bad pollution and it blocks out my beautiful blue sky. Ever wanted to spend the day at the beach with dirty clouds floating around everywhere? its not that nice.

The Australian government announced recently that they are finalizing plans for a high speed intercity train system like the one in Japan. Personally I couldn't' be happier.

 

[charlestweed]

The only thing that really scares me is how the government is destroying the middle class (especially the upper middle class)....which is exactly what category a private practice dentist is most likely in. America is about to change A LOT in the next 5 years or so, especially when this new healthcare bill hits. I don't really know how hard it will hit dentists, but what I'm scared of is people running from medicine over to dentistry. When that happens, the dental schools just keep opening more and more schools and producing WAYYYY too many dentists. The economy is really weak right now, so they know there will always be fools that will pay 500k+ to get a dental education if they blow the "you can make 250k right out of school" line up their rears...and that's how they will make it. People that can't work (high unemployment at record high) will not be able to afford dental insurance anymore...and no one can afford to pay the massive prices out of pocket when needing dental work. I understand that dentists have to make prices high sometimes to offset their own skyrocketing bills, but it's nonetheless something to think about. I hate sounding like such a pessimist but it really is a serious possibility. I love America more than words can explain, but DC is screwing this country up so bad right now. In 10-15 years, you won't even recognize this country.

And there is a peaceful process to throw out these bad politicians. It is called election. I too believe in limited government. The less you are relying on the government for help, the more successful you will become. Personal responsibility is the key ingredient for success.

It may not be a bad thing to graduate with $350k in student loan debt. Having a huge debt will force you to work harder and to live within your mean. You see, many of us, old grads, bought nice houses, nice cars right after our graduation because we didn’t have a huge student loan burden like you guys…so our monthly expenses are just as high as the young dentists who owe $350k in student loan and don’t own a house. If you, the new grads, rent a simple apartment and live within your mean for the next couple of years, you should be fine.

 

[charlestweed]

Don't know if I would go THAT far.. 🙂

My co-resident got his BDS from England. He chose not return to England after he finished his ortho residency in the US. He is currently running 4 successful ortho practices in Washington state. He is just one of many of my foreign trained dentist friends who decided to stay in the US because of better opportunities here.

The Australian government announced recently that they are finalizing plans for a high speed intercity train system like the one in Japan. Personally I couldn't' be happier.

No parking problem here in Southern California. I would rather have the freedom of driving my own car than using these high-speed train.

 

[whodat4life]

And there is a peaceful process to throw out these bad politicians. It is called election. I too believe in limited government. The less you are relying on the government for help, the more successful you will become. Personal responsibility is the key ingredient for success.

It may not be a bad thing to graduate with $350k in student loan debt. Having a huge debt will force you to work harder and to live within your mean. You see, many of us, old grads, bought nice houses, nice cars right after our graduation because we didn’t have a huge student loan burden like you guys…so our monthly expenses are just as high as the young dentists who owe $350k in student loan and don’t own a house. If you, the new grads, rent a simple apartment and live within your mean for the next couple of years, you should be fine.

Hey thanks for the advice...it makes sense! Yeah, this government takeover is ruining our country. I think there will be a landslide election next November. People are getting sick of it, from both parties.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

My co-resident got his BDS from England. He chose not return to England after he finished his ortho residency in the US. He is currently running 4 successful ortho practices in Washington state. He is just one of many of my foreign trained dentist friends who decided to stay in the US because of better opportunities here.

There are many Irish and UK dental grads trying to come to Australia as well these days as their economy has taken a beating. Not to mention their citizen's and their businesses with these riots going on. ... real shame.

I prefer the use of my own car too. But I do enjoy the train system here and use it whenever I can.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

It may not be a bad thing to graduate with $350k in student loan debt. Having a huge debt will force you to work harder and to live within your mean. You see, many of us, old grads, bought nice houses, nice cars right after our graduation because we didn't have a huge student loan burden like you guys…so our monthly expenses are just as high as the young dentists who owe $350k in student loan and don't own a house. If you, the new grads, rent a simple apartment and live within your mean for the next couple of years, you should be fine.

That just sounds sad and defeatist. Every time I hear things like this from my colleagues in the states I really feel for you guys. I don't think you should give up and just accept such ridiculous student debt. If I were you.. I'd vote to change the way education is funded in your country. It didn't always used to be that way in the states you know. Ask a retired dentist who went to dental school in the 50s-60s how much he/she paid for tuition.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

You can also run off to Vietnam and just skip out on your student loans like some are doing. There are offices all over the country catering to just expats that are doing quite well.

I suppose with 350k in debt you'd consider something like this.. Are those who do that from Vietnam to begin with or are most of them born in the states?

Some of the Aussie dentists used to do that a few years ago (even though their debt was only like 5 to 20k after graduation @ 0% interest). Most would go to the UK and work.. some came back.. some didn't. Most don't do that now.. mainly because they can do better in Australia financially now than before.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

NO i am a UK citizen and completed all my education in the UK. TO be honest i dont see myself being here long term and am seriosuly considering Australia

I would suggest before you accept your pros training offer in the UK, that you apply to complete pros training in Australia instead. If you are planning on living here long term. You'd be better off doing your program here than in the UK. If anything it would allow you more time to make contacts with local dentists (who will be referring you patients)! 🙂

I visited Sydney/Melb in June this year. I found little things odd but maybe not a reflection of all of Australia. For example there were only 2 supermarkets - coles and woolworths, whereas in the UK there are many many more, so there is alot more choice, more competition for prices etc. I just found there is generally alot more choice in many things in the UK, and with the weak british pound things seemed extremely expensive in Oz.

It is true to an extent that as far as supermarkets go there aren't many big players other than Coles and Woolworths. We do have lots of Aldi supermarkets and now Costco. If you don't want to shop at these.. most people simply decide to support their local community green grocer. I think Australia is really supportive of small business owners which is good. There are lots of small grocery stores owners in most every neighborhood and I use these as much as I can. (the fruit and veg is usually of better quality at these places than the supermarkets anyways)

I would definitely want to be within 10-15 miles of a major city (ideally melbourne or maybe sydney). I was actually just offered a job in Eastlakes, NSW full time which i am considering...any ideas what the area is like?

I'm not that familiar with Eastlakes.. but if it is where I think it is.. Its just down near the Sydney Airport.
That area in general (suburbs near the airport) is an older industrial area of the city. The people who live there are a good mix of older blue collar working families.. and newer renovated loft apartments with young professionals who want to live near the CBD. That should be a fine place to work if you ask me!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

The less you are relying on the government for help, the more successful you will become. Personal responsibility is the key ingredient for success.

I agree with you there. 👍

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Not to be an alarmist/pessimist... here's our favorite leftist filmmaker's commentary on the demise of the American middle class...

http://bit.ly/ppKuuB

 

[yappy]

I have a slight disagreement with you on this point. There are things the federal gov could do to help out middle class Americans more; though, I think the primary reason that the middle class are suffering in American today is due to corporatism.
The wage earner/laborer has taken so many hits because if you can pay people less, eliminate benefits, keep them from forming a union (see wal-mart), you've increased company profits and the company leaders see a huge pay day. The worst part is we're starting to see it in higher level positions today as well.

My grandfather worked at meat packing company with his 8th grade education as a lower level employee his whole career after the military. He owned his home, owned beach property to vacation to, as well as an RV. He was able to save enough to retire at 55y/o and is still alive today at 88. If he were working today he would barely be able to live in a double wide and own a car. He most likely would be on Medicaid/food stamps. Labor in our country has lost all control over a fair wage. It's no a surprise that as union participation is at an all time low, income disparity is at an all time high.

The idea that the federal gov who is largely controlled by the oligopolies of today is the primary force hurting the middle class is crazy. It's greed.

PS: Before you go all right wing on me I think we're on the same page - I just would like to see hard working people getting paid for their efforts. More people that can afford dental work or just stuff in general is good for our economy.

The only thing that really scares me is how the government is destroying the middle class (especially the upper middle class)....

 

[whodat4life]

PS: Before you go all right wing on me I think we're on the same page - I just would like to see hard working people getting paid for their efforts. More people that can afford dental work or just stuff in general is good for our economy.

No, I actually agree with most of what you've said. I think that what's destroying the middle class is a combination of a lot of things.
1) technology
2) politicians tax bracketing us with billionaires
3) corporatizition

By technology, I mean they're destroying jobs for people. When is the last time you called a big company and got to speak to a live person right away?

Also, we need to make it to where people get tax breaks/incentives based on how many people they employ. That alone would fix a lot of the unemployment. Also, make it to where people running a small business don't get taxed for the first three years, giving them a chance to get on their feet.

The solution to this problem is very simple: make fat cats pay their taxes, and lower taxes on people running small businesses. If you want to hike taxes on billionaires, fine...but just remember that people who run small businesses aren't billionaires, not even close. As you and I talked about before...we need another tax bracket for those making 250k-5million/yr. It's just not fair at all to make us pay the same tax percentage billionaires pay. IMHO, this hypothetical tax bracket should be among the lowest taxed in the whole system, since it creates jobs. Oh well, what do I know? Lol, sorry if this is too "right wing" for you.

 

[7 Iron]

No, I actually agree with most of what you've said. I think that what's destroying the middle class is a combination of a lot of things.
1) technology
2) politicians tax bracketing us with billionaires
3) corporatizition

By technology, I mean they're destroying jobs for people. When is the last time you called a big company and got to speak to a live person right away?

Also, we need to make it to where people get tax breaks/incentives based on how many people they employ. That alone would fix a lot of the unemployment. Also, make it to where people running a small business don't get taxed for the first three years, giving them a chance to get on their feet.

The solution to this problem is very simple: make fat cats pay their taxes, and lower taxes on people running small businesses. If you want to hike taxes on billionaires, fine...but just remember that people who run small businesses aren't billionaires, not even close. As you and I talked about before...we need another tax bracket for those making 250k-5million/yr. It's just not fair at all to make us pay the same tax percentage billionaires pay. IMHO, this hypothetical tax bracket should be among the lowest taxed in the whole system, since it creates jobs. Oh well, what do I know? Lol, sorry if this is too "right wing" for you.

250k/yr - upper middle class, comfortable living, some extravagances
5m/yr - beach house on Maui, penthouse in Manhattan, 4-week long vacations at the Ritz-Carlton

 

[whodat4life]

250k/yr - upper middle class, comfortable living, some extravagances
5m/yr - beach house on Maui, penthouse in Manhattan, 4-week long vacations at the Ritz-Carlton

For sure, and if one works hard enough to make it...he/she should be rewarded. That's what's wrong with the country...it's all of a sudden a sin to be successful now days. If someone wants all of the above that you've mentioned, they should find out what it takes to get there and never give up. Even at 5 million dollars per year...that's still a FAR cry from a billionaire.

Let's remember that they're not taking home this much...I meant grossing 5 million as a business (before all expenses are taken out). Let's just say profiting 250k-1 million/year lol!

 

[yappy]

I think though, that at the income level you describe (250-400k), you may be at an income level to create enough capital for good investmetns that you would not be at otherwise. I guess i'm saying if you want financial independence the high income may not be the endgame but an opportunity to put alot away for retimrement or invest in rental properties or w/e.

For sure, and if one works hard enough to make it...he/she should be rewarded. That's what's wrong with the country...it's all of a sudden a sin to be successful now days. If someone wants all of the above that you've mentioned, they should find out what it takes to get there and never give up. Even at 5 million dollars per year...that's still a FAR cry from a billionaire.

Let's remember that they're not taking home this much...I meant grossing 5 million as a business (before all expenses are taken out). Let's just say profiting 250k-1 million/year lol!

 

[whodat4life]

I think though, that at the income level you describe (250-400k), you may be at an income level to create enough capital for good investmetns that you would not be at otherwise. I guess i'm saying if you want financial independence the high income may not be the endgame but an opportunity to put alot away for retimrement or invest in rental properties or w/e.

Very true...