Over 30 and considering MD/PhD

[pathdr2b]

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Hello All,

I was wondering if there was anyone else over 30 out there considering the MD/PhD program. As an over 30 applicant for the class beginning in 2004, I often waiver on this decision due to the age issue.

 

[pathdr2b]

Wrong site I guess🙁 !

 

[Neuronix]

I'll be completely honest with you. I don't believe I've ever met anyone that old on the MD/PhD interview trail. The oldest starters are usually in the 25 years old range. The reason is simple. You should count on a MD/PhD program taking 8 years. Sure many do it in less, but eight is a very realistic expectation. Then, you will need at least 3 years of residency and 3 years of post-doc to do most jobs that are MD/PhD oriented. This puts you at the age of 44 when you'll be beginning your career, fighting your way for grants and a faculty position.

If this doesn't sound like a bad idea, then go for it. For most, the idea of hitting the beginning of a career at the age of 45 is daunting. Nevertheless, life is a journey and not a destination, and if you feel that you would really enjoy the trip, it's still within your reach.

 

[bailey39]

I am one of the oldest (I have met no other 2001 grads and only one 2000 grad--everyone else has been younger)on the interview circuit, and I'm barely 23. I found this somewhat surprising, but maybe not when you consider how long the whole thing takes.
You just need to decide whether to take another 7-9 yrs for MD/PhD or pursue another option, IF that would be better for you. There are many MD researchers out there and they have great labs, funding etc. Also, HHMI sponsors some med students (pays yrs 3&4) who take one year off for research and decide they want to become physician-scientists. No PhD, but you're well-funded by a fantastic foundation. But if you want MD/PhD, go for it. It's a great program. You may have to explain a bit, but we all have things we get asked to justify/clarify, etc. Good luck!

 

[pathdr2b]

Thanks for the positive feedback! I'm reasonably committed to the combined program (assuming I get in, of course) but sometimes it's just nice to know there are others with similar concerns considering the same program. Although my age is somewhat of a concern, my current thinking is that had I decided to do it a few years ago instead of thinking I had to choose, I'd be half-way through the program by now! And besides while I'm in my mid 30's, I LOOK like I'm 25 😉 (or so people tell me) so giving that I plan to live to be at least 80, I'll still be able to get a few years of research in there!

Of course reality hits so I have to be realistic about the residency programs I consider. I'm pretty decided on pathology since I think it's a great career to combine research with clinical duties. The prospect of an 8-5ish residency hours are cool too!

 

[Bostonienses]

Hey Pathdr2b,
Man, at least you are aiming for a MD/PhD program. I am in a PhD program, which takes about 5 years to complete (I find it funny that MD/PhD's are "allowed" to graduate in less time because of their program; at BU there is NO WAY IN HELL that you are leaving with a PhD in less than 5 years). Anyway, I digress; my point is that I will be applying to med school after getting my PhD, which is pretty late. So don't let the age issue get in the way. If it's what you want to do, go for it. And you don't need a post-doc if you are MD/PhD to do clinical research or research oriented stuff; you just need to do a fellowship in research to learn how to manage the lab, and that takes 1 year.
Good luck!

 

[DarkChild]

OP - another thing that I would be worried about if I were in your shoes is getting married and raising kids. I'm sure it can be done as an MD/PhD, but it'll be tough. I'm not sure about the particulars of your situation, but dont discount these "greater life goals."
Secondly, I think you really need to ask yourself why you want to do the MD/PhD. If the answer is that you are really interested in disease oriented research (as opposed to basic research) IMHO, a much better way to go about that would be to do an MD and then do either a post-doc or a residency, followed by a research fellowship. the advantage of the MD/residency/research fellowship route is that by that time you will know exactly what kind of disease you want to study and probably how you want to investigate that. Also, as I see it, doing an MD only gives you the flexibility to leave research if need be and get a well paying job.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by DarkChild
OP - another thing that I would be worried about if I were in your shoes is getting married and raising kids. I'm sure it can be done as an MD/PhD, but it'll be tough. I'm not sure about the particulars of your situation, but dont discount these "greater life goals."


"Been there and I'm doing that" the marriage and kids consideration is not my concern since I currently "have a life". I also know of a few married MD/PhD students including some at Duke, so I'm not very concerned about this. BUT, I'm concerned about my daughter being in high school when I FINALLY finish this program. My child would have spent most of her life with me as a student 😱 (she was born while I was in graduate school) Just seems a little strange although at this point she used to it!

Bottom line for me especially after completing my first day at the research clinic at NIH yesterday, I'm going to need BOTH degrees to do what I'd like to do in cancer research.

 

[jmed]

Hey pathdr2b- I am also an older MSTP applicant (just turned 30) considering some of the same issues as yourself. I took several years to travel and work before starting college, but am now emerging from my pre-med/research studies with just as much enthusiasm and momentum as everyone else interested in becoming a physician-scientist. However, I did run into some opposition this summer when I worked in the lab of an MSTP director: he stated that I might run into some discrimination because some people on MSTP adcoms feel that individuals that are going to make notable contributions in their field are going to do it when they are in their 20s and early 30s when their capacity for creative work is highest. In subsequent discussions it was revealed that this was indeed his own position. Everybody to whom I've mentioned this thinks it's preposterous, but he IS the director of an MSTP (at a state school). Nonetheless, I'm still applying to his program because I made a positive impression in his lab and consider myself a solid candidate, but I am a little concerned by Neuronix's posting testifying to the rarity of non-trad applicants to these positions. Maybe it's just that most older students don't have the stomach for the mid-forties starting point in the careers of late-blooming MD/PhDers, or else maybe there is some discrimination out there... I'd love to hear otherwise if anyone has/knows of older students who have success stories! Let me know how you fare during the interviews, pathdr2b, and I will do the same!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by jmed
he stated that I might run into some discrimination because some people on MSTP adcoms feel that individuals that are going to make notable contributions in their field are going to do it when they are in their 20s and early 30s when their capacity for creative work is highest.

In my "year of inquiring" about MD/PhD program's most of the schools I've contacted have not been discriminatory when I bring up my age but one top notch medical school's director in Chicago was blantantly so. He just came out and said (in writing) that I would be better off taking my MS in Chemistry and getting a job in industry. He told me to to let him know how things go which I will by sending him my acceptance letters from Duke and Cornell (wishful thinking 😉 ) but I've definitely taken this school OFF my list! At this point, the naysayers can go straight to He*L , because I'm committed at this point!

Good luck jmed and I will be sure to keep in touch!!!

 

[jmed]

aha- so I found an outright rejection letter from the Colorado MSTP when I got home today- not a big surprise since that's the one directed by the guy I was telling you about. man, what a waste of time- their's is the most expensive MSTP to apply to as well- $125! but on a positive note, I got emails from Case and UNC scheduling i-views for 1/17 and 1/25-27 resp.

 

[CatsAreKillers]

Hi Bostonienses,

I don't think that doing the PhD first is necessarily worse than doing the MD/PhD all at once. I think doing them each separately can allow you to really focus. Just my .02.... 😉

aha- so I found an outright rejection letter from the Colorado MSTP when I got home today- not a big surprise since that's the one directed by the guy I was telling you about. man, what a waste of time- their's is the most expensive MSTP to apply to as well- $125! but on a positive note, I got emails from Case and UNC scheduling i-views for 1/17 and 1/25-27 resp.

Hi Jmed,

Sorry to hear about your rejection, but $125?? 😱 You're better off! 😉

Case is a fantastic school with a great rep....good luck on your interviews!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by jmed
aha- so I found an outright rejection letter from the Colorado MSTP when I got home today- not a big surprise since that's the one directed by the guy I was telling you about. man, what a waste of time- their's is the most expensive MSTP to apply to as well- $125! but on a positive note, I got emails from Case and UNC scheduling i-views for 1/17 and 1/25-27 resp.

I went to UNC for gradute school and I know the dircetor of the MD/PhD program. I can pretty much assure you that you're age won't be a problem there as there are quite a few nontrads at both the medical and graduate schools. They even have an organization for student-parents. Besides, UNC is a better school than Colorado anyway😉 . Good luck!!!

 

[energy_girl]

There are several nontraditional students in my MST program, including a guy with two kids and several others who started above age 30. In my year, there are at least three (out of 18 total) who started at above age >28 or have families, all of whom are very dedicated students with a strong commitment to their career path. In fact, I think that the nontraditional MSTs that I know probably have a much better idea of what they want to do and why they want the MD/PhD then the rest of us "straight-out-of-college" students.

To the OP: if you think that getting both degrees and going through the training program is the best path for your future, go for it! Lots of people go through long training programs; just think of the long years of training future cardiothoracic surgeons have to go through. If going into academic medicine is truly what you want, and you think that the combined degree training is the best for you, then don't let age be a hindrance to you. The nontrads in my program are the happiest and most confident people I know. =)

 

[Neuronix]

I was a non-traditional applicant with a very compelling reason for going MD/PhD and WashU wouldn't interview me. However, I think the key is that alot of the older applicants have worked in research for a couple years. I know you have been pathdr, so this works in your favor. You see, if you have been working in research for a long time you already know what to expect and you are probably already published. Not only does this make your application look that much better, but also it shows that "commitment to research" that schools like WashU are looking for.

So anyways, your mileage is going to vary based on your ugrad/grad GPA and MCAT, but years of research experience, no matter how old you are, are going to help you get into a good program.

 

[wack]

I am an MD only applicant with a MS in engineering and I am older (27 the month I matriculate). During my interview at Case my interviewer, cant remember his name, repeatedly tried to convince me to apply to the MD/PhD program. When I told him I wasn't interested because of my age and my stonger interest in clinical aspects he told me that my age shouldn't be a concern. He didn't go back for his MD until he was in his thirties. His first "real" job was at MIT when he was in his late 30s early 40s. Case is very supportive of non-trad applicants. Upon further consideration of the situation I decided that my interviewer was right and my age shouldn't be a consideration however I am still going MD only because I want to be more clinically oriented. To me the real draw of an MD/PhD program is the fact that it allows you to make, potentially, large contributions to science as you move through your education. As opposed to the pure education that an MD program gives. So hang in there with Case they rock.

As a rant that might get me cursed let me respond to the Colorado program directors statement that he wants the MD/PHD candidates contributing in their late twenties early thirties when they are most creative. First of all lets take the average MD/PhD candidate they start (straight arrow no 12 year old child prodigy here) at 22/23 they are going to finish at 29/30. After which time they enter a residency. One year will probably be sacrificed to a brutal internship (PGY-1) that will offer little time for sleep or creativity. So now they are only down to 4 years for creativity which will probably be somewhat compromised by residency demands (unless it is a completly academic residency) My point is even a traditional candidate will miss the boat on most of his "creative" years unless he is making contributions during his PhD research. Sounds to me like the guy in colorado shouldn't endorse MD/PhD programs at all. Finally, and here is where I will catch flack, it is my understanding that medicine even on the science level doesn't require the mental gymnastics of a hard science or engineering. Sure medicine is demanding in many ways but it isn't the most intellectual field. (However it is my favorite field.) There is some support for the colorado guys theory that the twenties and thirties are the hot years. Einstein hit on special realtivity in his twenties. Heisenberg developed quantum mechanics in his twenties etc. Watson and Crick proposed the structure of DNA when they were in their late thirties and early twenties respectively. But the leaps made by most medical scientists are going to require experience, dedication, and in some cases emotional maturity. Age favors these to some extent. Additionally Picasso and many artists are very productive late into their lives drawing on their many experiences for material. Who would say that these people aren't creative. Haven't some said medicine is art and science.

 

[jmed]

Wow! Thanks for all the encouragement guys!

 

[dr kevin40]

plz don't. u'll be spending all yer time in lab.

the mid 40s is not when u want to be establishing yerself.

just go md, do yer residency, get laid a lot, marry, then have kids. make sure to keep it bumpin in the bedroom tho

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
plz don't. u'll be spending all yer time in lab.

the mid 40s is not when u want to be establishing yerself.

just go md, do yer residency, get laid a lot, marry, then have kids. make sure to keep it bumpin in the bedroom tho

🙄 🙄


My decision to pursue both degrees is pretty much a done deal. Marriage and kid? Done!! I don't care about being in my mid-40's starting a career. When I'm 45 I'll look and feel like I'm in my 30's because I exercise, take care of myself and inherited a dam good set of chromosomes😉 . And did I mention that I'm ALREADY a fantasic scientist? So, I 've already "got a life" now it's time to "heed my calling"!

Finally, I won't be the first nor the last person to have a new career at 45 which is when I anticipate finishing the combined porgram. And as long as there's a certain 50-something year-old SURIGICAL RESIDENT at the University of Virginia living her dream, I know I have no excuse but to live mine as well. Peace!!!!!!!!!