Overqualified?

[subiculum]

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I wanted the attendings and residents involved in application to weigh in on my situation. I have a prior (foreign) professional degree (graduated in mid-90s) and training in a related surgical filed. After completing a residency in US and a research felowship at a prestigious research institution I went back to medical school in US specifically to become a head and neck surgeon. Everybody was telling me that I will be very competitive but so far I only got several rejections, including from some of the programs on the top of my list, and one invitation from a program I am going to rotate at. I applied very broadly to many different programs, all strong in head and neck. The only "objective" reason for getting rejected at this stage I can think of is not being AOA. Some people have also suggested that I may be viewed as "too foreign" or "overqualified". Is there such a thing? I thought the selection process should be entirely merit-based. Appreciate the advice.

Stats: top 20 medical school, Step 1: 271 Step 2: 281, Honors in all rotations except phychiatry and OB-GYN. Several first authored publications, including some in high impact journals, book chapters etc. Many abstracts and oral presentations.

 

[OtoHNS]

With those stats, you are as close to a shoo-in to match as I can think of, assuming you have a semi normal personality (the fact that you got a lot of honors 3rd year is a good sign that you do in fact have a decent personality).

Getting interviews is a crap shoot so don't get too worked up about a few rejections. With your stats and research, I feel sure you'll get more interviews than you can go to if you applied broadly.

Your main potential pitfall at interviews will be coming off as arrogant and a know-it-all because of your age and your prior training. (This can be subtle and unintentional, so you may want to ask some trusted friends/colleagues for their candid opinion before interviews). At interviews, let your CV and research speak for themselves. Your job will be to show the attendings and residents that you are a normal person who is humble and ready to learn and work hard for 5 years.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I think there are several reasons why you're getting rejections.

The title of your post suggests that the reason why you are being rejected might be because you are "overqualified." No one is over-qualified for otolaryngology. Therefore, this suggests that there might be an underpinning of arrogance in your application, specifically your personal statement, especially if you are of the thought that you might be overqualified.

Secondly, you're old. In group dynamics, it is often difficult for someone much older to take orders from someone much younger. having seen this first hand, I have noticed also that it is difficult for those much younger to discipline older individuals. having been older than some of my attendings in residency, it doesn't necessarily establish the proper hierarchy in terms of social constructs.

Third, if you are foreign, this often creates cultural barriers that in my experience are hard to overcome. Sorry to say, but it's true.

I wanted the attendings and residents involved in application to weigh in on my situation. I have a prior (foreign) professional degree (graduated in mid-90s) and training in a related surgical filed. After completing a residency in US and a research felowship at a prestigious research institution I went back to medical school in US specifically to become a head and neck surgeon. Everybody was telling me that I will be very competitive but so far I only got several rejections, including from some of the programs on the top of my list, and one invitation from a program I am going to rotate at. I applied very broadly to many different programs, all strong in head and neck. The only "objective" reason for getting rejected at this stage I can think of is not being AOA. Some people have also suggested that I may be viewed as "too foreign" or "overqualified". Is there such a thing? I thought the selection process should be entirely merit-based. Appreciate the advice.

Stats: top 20 medical school, Step 1: 271 Step 2: 281, Honors in all rotations except phychiatry and OB-GYN. Several first authored publications, including some in high impact journals, book chapters etc. Many abstracts and oral presentations.

 

[resxn]

overqualified? more like conceited. Who the heck can be overqualified for a career in medicine in any specialty? More like overly arrogant. I'd reject your application if I sniffed that attitude as well.

 

[subiculum]

To Resxn: I think you misread my post. "Overqualified" is the phrase used by some people I talked to. That's why it's in quotation marks. Maybe they did not want to use the phrase "too old". I personally don't think I am overqualified.

My personal statement is very straightforward and matter of fact, what I did in the past and what I want to do in the future, nothing more. I don't think it's arrogant in any way neither did my faculty advisors, but I may be wrong.

I think NB is correct on many points, although nobody would admit to it openly. There certainly is some level of age and national origin discrimination. Hopefully, other considerations will outweigh these.

To OtoHNS: thanks for encouragement, I will take your points into consideration when interviewing.

Thanks to all for responding.

 

[OtoHNS]

Well, if you really do have an inoffensive personal statement and decent letters of rec, I still think you will get plenty of interviews.

As you can see though, all 3 of us attendings are focused on personality and how you would fit into the existing dynamics of the residency program.

Don't forget that ENT residencies are small- usually around 8-12 residents in total. One bad apple will cause a lot of misery for everyone else, and the program is stuck for 5 years.

This doesn't mean you need to be the coolest interviewee in the room, it just means you have to be normal. Just relax and chat. Don't talk about your research and accomplishments unless specifically asked about them, especially during social time.

If I were you, I'd also prepare something to say to the chair and/or PD during your 1 on 1 interview. Basically acknowledge that you are foreign and older than the average resident but that you are humble and willing to learn and work hard. Because that's what they want to know about you, whether they explicitly ask it or not.

Personally, if I were interviewing you I would find your story very compelling. I mean, you did an entire residency and then started over with medical school just so you could be a H+N surgeon! There's probably not many other applicants who can say that.

 

[subiculum]

Well, if you really do have an inoffensive personal statement and decent letters of rec, I still think you will get plenty of interviews.

As you can see though, all 3 of us attendings are focused on personality and how you would fit into the existing dynamics of the residency program.

Don't forget that ENT residencies are small- usually around 8-12 residents in total. One bad apple will cause a lot of misery for everyone else, and the program is stuck for 5 years.

This doesn't mean you need to be the coolest interviewee in the room, it just means you have to be normal. Just relax and chat. Don't talk about your research and accomplishments unless specifically asked about them, especially during social time.

If I were you, I'd also prepare something to say to the chair and/or PD during your 1 on 1 interview. Basically acknowledge that you are foreign and older than the average resident but that you are humble and willing to learn and work hard. Because that's what they want to know about you, whether they explicitly ask it or not.

Personally, if I were interviewing you I would find your story very compelling. I mean, you did an entire residency and then started over with medical school just so you could be a H+N surgeon! There's probably not many other applicants who can say that.

I really hope you are right. I know it's still very early and many programs have not started interviewing yet.

I have not seen my letters but have no reason to believe they are not strong. I worked in the department from literally day one of the 1st year, going to OR, attending conferences etc. I helped when they were short around vacation times, Christmas etc and needed manpower. We got along well and they let me operate quite a bit. In addition, every quarter I designed an elective reading course with one of the faculty focusing on one subspecialty at a time, on top of my usual coursework. I think this indicates interest and willingness to learn. As for hard work, I did my (surgical) internship in pre-80 hour work week times (q2 call etc). I think things are much easier now for residents.

Interview is not generally my forte, I am just not very good at small talk. I will work on this, like you suggested. Personally, as a resident, I would want to work with someone who will have my back. I've seen some very superficially amiable people in the residency who just could not be relied upon. You form some very strong bonds with your coresidents, I think it's similar to the military. Some of my best friends are my co-interns (now attendings). But I totally understand the importance of the first impression, it's just not possible to form a complete judgment in a short session.

Thanks again for advice, maybe our paths wil cross some day.

 

[resxn]

I really hope you are right. I know it's still very early and many programs have not started interviewing yet.

I have not seen my letters but have no reason to believe they are not strong. I worked in the department from literally day one of the 1st year, going to OR, attending conferences etc. I helped when they were short around vacation times, Christmas etc and needed manpower. We got along well and they let me operate quite a bit. In addition, every quarter I designed an elective reading course with one of the faculty focusing on one subspecialty at a time, on top of my usual coursework. I think this indicates interest and willingness to learn. As for hard work, I did my (surgical) internship in pre-80 hour work week times (q2 call etc). I think things are much easier now for residents.

Interview is not generally my forte, I am just not very good at small talk. I will work on this, like you suggested. Personally, as a resident, I would want to work with someone who will have my back. I've seen some very superficially amiable people in the residency who just could not be relied upon. You form some very strong bonds with your coresidents, I think it's similar to the military. Some of my best friends are my co-interns (now attendings). But I totally understand the importance of the first impression, it's just not possible to form a complete judgment in a short session.

Thanks again for advice, maybe our paths wil cross some day.

Subiculum,

I apologize. I was trying to be provocative in my response to see how you handled it. Sort of an interview gimmick. You passed that well. I honestly cannot see any reason why, when you interview that if you come across as eloquently as you do on this board, that you would not match with such a strong CV and a level headed response to a confrontational post. I think you just need to hold out for a few more weeks and you'll quickly see that you have a fair number of chances to match at a good program. You will have some programs simply reject you at face value because of the IMG label, but those who take the chance to interview you will be glad they did.

Good luck.