oversaving compulsion?

[finalpsychyear]

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Early 30s single guy here. At the end of this year will mark my 2 year anniversary of being a working attending. I struggled with spending money especially during my first year 2017 where i only spent 11-12k the entire year in Total expenses bc i had moved back from out of state residency and stayed with family longer than i should have so no rent/utilities. For 2018 I stuck to a total expense budget of 2500-3000 a month during this entire time with everything else going into investing/savings accounts. I rent an apartment with no wife, no kids, and thanks to going to a state med school with low tuition and doing lots of moonlighting in residency i am debt free since literally every penny i made in residency plus moonlighting went into paying off any debt but my bank account was essentially 0 dollars to start 2017 off due to paying off all debt.

I literally feel my frugality is growing on itself to the point where I find it hard to buy even small gifts for myself. Today I bought a ps4 pro gaming system used on ebay for $450.00 but it took me several months to pull the trigger and aside from maybe 5 domestic trips (jan 2017-Current) in this time for leisure I don't think i have bought anything materialistic for myself. I realized there was a problem when i bought a pair of 60 dollar athletic shoes and they ripped a small hole after 2 weeks due to playing tennis in them. I was so furious and rather than pitch them i found myself going to a shoe repair shop to get it patched... that's when i realized my behavior may be getting out of hand. I keep telling myself i promised to keep this budget for 5 years and i am 2 years into that because the nest egg potential will carry me very far. Also, since i don't have any taste of attending life I don't really know what i am missing.

Thoughts on what i may be doing wrong or suggestions to improve?

2017 total expenses : 11k roughly
2018 total expenses: 36k roughly

 

[Stagg737]

Why do you feel like you're doing something wrong by not having a taste for "attending life"? Live like you are for 5 years and continue saving and I'm guessing you'll have a nest egg large enough to retire in your mid-40's if you wanted to. Financially it sounds like you're doing great.

On the other front, how's your social life? Do you hang out with friends or socialize much/at all? If you've got a decent social life/social circle and you're saving that much then good for you. If not, make an effort to expand your social circle. You'll almost certainly have to spend a bit more then. In terms of your frugality do you feel guilty when you spend a little money? Do you regret it when you spend it even if you can afford it? Or are you just indecisive? I've lived off of less than $15k/yr for most of my life and it's helped my financial situation a ton. If I were single I'd be perfectly happy living in a modest apartment with a few possessions and not much more (though I'd probably spend a decent amount of money of food and vacations when I can afford it). Basically saying being frugal/saving isn't an issue if it's not causing you distress as some people just don't value material items or money like others.

 

[birchswing]

I realized there was a problem when i bought a pair of 60 dollar athletic shoes and they ripped a small hole after 2 weeks due to playing tennis in them. I was so furious and rather than pitch them i found myself going to a shoe repair shop to get it patched... that's when i realized my behavior may be getting out of hand.

You went to a cobbler rather than returning them! That's very eco-friendly, but not terribly economical. It does sound very old-world, quaint though.

And I take way longer on making purchases. Buying a mattress was a years long process for me. And I've had it for two years now and have debated returning it many times since (they offered that I could trade it in for a newer model). I think that's normal. But on the other hand, I'm not exactly normal.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Why do you feel like you're doing something wrong by not having a taste for "attending life"? Live like you are for 5 years and continue saving and I'm guessing you'll have a nest egg large enough to retire in your mid-40's if you wanted to. Financially it sounds like you're doing great.

On the other front, how's your social life? Do you hang out with friends or socialize much/at all? If you've got a decent social life/social circle and you're saving that much then good for you. If not, make an effort to expand your social circle. You'll almost certainly have to spend a bit more then. In terms of your frugality do you feel guilty when you spend a little money? Do you regret it when you spend it even if you can afford it? Or are you just indecisive? I've lived off of less than $15k/yr for most of my life and it's helped my financial situation a ton. If I were single I'd be perfectly happy living in a modest apartment with a few possessions and not much more (though I'd probably spend a decent amount of money of food and vacations when I can afford it). Basically saying being frugal/saving isn't an issue if it's not causing you distress as some people just don't value material items or money like others.

Social life could be better but usually that is on me for not planning things as my friends nearby r up for at least monthly hang outs. I do have a regular girlfriend (non-medical) who likes to poke fun that live like like a cheap college student (partly bc i find the dollar store fine for disposable items like paper towels, cleaners etc). I did recently join a tennis club weekly but it "hurts" when i have to pay 25 bucks for a 2 hour doubles session when i was used to 10 bucks in my small town but guess that's what happens when u move near a top 10-15 metro city.

As far as retiring in my mid 40's that would be amazing but i am basing it on mostly if i have any kids. Boy if i never got married or cared to have kids I am nearly positive i could retire in 10 years provided i worked pretty hard in that time... drool now thinking about retiring in 10 years...

 

[Stagg737]

Social life could be better but usually that is on me for not planning things as my friends nearby r up for at least monthly hang outs. I do have a regular girlfriend (non-medical) who likes to poke fun that live like like a cheap college student (partly bc i find the dollar store fine for disposable items like paper towels, cleaners etc). I did recently join a tennis club weekly but it "hurts" when i have to pay 25 bucks for a 2 hour doubles session when i was used to 10 bucks in my small town but guess that's what happens when u move near a top 10-15 metro city.

As far as retiring in my mid 40's that would be amazing but i am basing it on mostly if i have any kids. Boy if i never got married or cared to have kids I am nearly positive i could retire in 10 years provided i worked pretty hard in that time... drool now thinking about retiring in 10 years...

Sounds like you're just being fiscally conservative while going through the adjustment of living in a more expensive area. I mean, if you really get distressed about spending money obviously go see someone. Doesn't sound all that abnormal to me though (in my non-professional opinion, of course). Just realize you're in a waaaaay better position than most people and are setting yourself up for success in the long run.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Sounds like you're just being fiscally conservative while going through the adjustment of living in a more expensive area. I mean, if you really get distressed about spending money obviously go see someone. Doesn't sound all that abnormal to me though (in my non-professional opinion, of course). Just realize you're in a waaaaay better position than most people and are setting yourself up for success in the long run.

spending money to see someone about difficulties with spending money .. quite the quandary. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Merely]

Are you gonna be happy with how much money you’ve spent if you die tomorrow? What’s the point of having money in the bank if you don’t enjoy your life? I’m obviously not saying waste all your money but it’s not healthy to be obsessing over 50 dollars here and there when you’re making 300k/yr, it just makes no sense. Get married, have kids, develop your personal life and you’ll get over your fear of spending money when you have to start spending a lot of it on your wife and kids. Good luck and enjoy yourself, you only live once...

 

[TexasPhysician]

Being happy doesn’t necessarily mean spending money. The only important question to ask yourself is if you are enjoying life.

My personal cc expense is almost always under $1k/month. I gain my happiness from my family, athletics, etc., not things. Our family budget is closer to $7k probably, with a mortgage, PT daycare, and whatever else my spouse spends money on.

I’ve thought about buying a used sports car under $30k for 2 years. It’s not that I couldn’t reproduce the money in 2 months. I wonder if the idea of having it is more exciting than actually owning it.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Being happy doesn’t necessarily mean spending money. The only important question to ask yourself is if you are enjoying life.

My personal cc expense is almost always under $1k/month. I gain my happiness from my family, athletics, etc., not things. Our family budget is closer to $7k probably, with a mortgage, PT daycare, and whatever else my spouse spends money on.

I’ve thought about buying a used sports car under $30k for 2 years. It’s not that I couldn’t reproduce the money in 2 months. I wonder if the idea of having it is more exciting than actually owning it.

7k includes your personal cc and office expense? I have a 1 day a week PP with 1 staff plus rent/utility for the office space and i do include that in my roughly 3k total expense in a month but i am not sure i should be doing that?

 

[Monocles]

Dude you're doing it absolutely right. I only dream I could save as much money as you do once I'm an attending. Hell if you want you could easily retire comfortably in the next 10 years!

As a resident in a high COL area I am only able to save about 30% of my take home each month.

But... you have to take into account your personal happiness as well! Find yourself a lovely lady (or guy)!

Also ya dun goofed on the PS4 pro... they had like $300 bundles I think during black friday.

 

[watto]

Even Dave Ramsey once told a guy who had successfully saved for much of his life to spend $5000 on a luxury cruise. Once in a while, you have to exercise some flexibility so you are not a slave to the fear of not having a safety net when you really do have one.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Dude you're doing it absolutely right. I only dream I could save as much money as you do once I'm an attending. Hell if you want you could easily retire comfortably in the next 10 years!

As a resident in a high COL area I am only able to save about 30% of my take home each month.

But... you have to take into account your personal happiness as well! Find yourself a lovely lady (or guy)!

Also ya dun goofed on the PS4 pro... they had like $300 bundles I think during black friday.

Mine is a "special" one that allows you to play games for free.

"goofed"as in messed up or a good job ?

 

[nexus73]

Write me into your will.

 

[dpmd]

The mistake you are making is comparing your spending to other doctors who are notorious underaccumulators of wealth. Ignore what other people spend their money on. Are you content with what you have and how you spend aside from how other people judge it? Did those shoes that you got patched work out for what you needed them for. Are you able to spend money on needed items? If the answer is yes to all that then be grateful that you are not a materialistic person and will likely achieve financial freedom at a young age. If on the other hand you are not able to spend money that you need to and you are unhappy with your situation then work on changing it (and yeah I suppose if you need therapy in order to achieve it that would be tricky). Like if you are reusing toilet paper or something extreme like that because you are just that scared of spending money and it causes you distress then getting help would be wise. Your description doesn't sound like that though. So just invest your savings and watch your net worth grow while smiling at your friends going into debt for the latest and greatest everything.

 

[whopper]

Oatmeal. It's cheap. 3 meals a day.
Pee into a jar. Each flush costs you money cause of the water use.
Why buy a gun to defend yourself? Use the pee jar. If anyone threatens you threaten them with the pee. Heck just you looking crazy cause you're using yellow liquid in a jar will scare the person off more so than the actual threat of the urine.

Here's what I (seriously) do to save money.
Use an American Express card that gets me 5% back on gas and groceries.
I use that 5% back card buying gift cards for things I know I'll use. E.g. a Netflix gift card--> I get 5% back cause of the AE benefit.
Put your money into a good mutual fund or other safe long-term investment.
Take care of yourself. This will translate to better long-term health and a longer shelf-life at work. e.g. I go to a gym and workout about 4-5 hrs a week.
If you have student debt work way extra hard to pay it off sooner for a few years. (Already done. Loans paid off).
Keep the same car. Do you really need a new one? Likely not. I had the same car for 13 years. I only got a new one cause I was in a car accident and it cost more to fix it than it was worth.

Only buy yourself "cool stuff" if you've done something worth it.

I'd advise against investing in things where you actually go to sit there and work at it. E.g. be a landlord or active stock trading. I've done the latter and it's too time-consuming. Yes I did enjoy, and was good at it but it draws too much attention from work.

 

[watto]

OK, the pee jar self defense technique is about the funniest thing I've ever seen here (and I helped start "Yes! I Found My Broken Antenna").

 

[Armadillos]

We all have different values, but for most folks I know going through your 30s single is not ideal. No sense saving a bunch for a rainy day if your not even enjoying the sun.

 

[birchswing]

We all have different values, but for most folks I know going through your 30s single is not ideal. No sense saving a bunch for a rainy day if your not even enjoying the sun.

He said he has a girlfriend in subsequent post.

I think single in this sense means any social activity up to the point of being engaged.

Just pointing out in case you missed the girlfriend part, but maybe you saw it and still meant single (unmarried) not ideal.

 

[TexasPhysician]

7k includes your personal cc and office expense? I have a 1 day a week PP with 1 staff plus rent/utility for the office space and i do include that in my roughly 3k total expense in a month but i am not sure i should be doing that?

$7k is family expenses. My business is an entire separate entity.

 

[whopper]

pee jar self defense technique

A buddy of mine told me a method to get out of getting mugged in college. Pretend you have schizophrenia. While I was a medstudent, got on a train to NYC, when the conductor showed up to take my ticket I played the act and he just walked along without asking me for my ticket.
(Mind you at the time I was in debt, not making money, and wouldn't do that now).

 

[finalpsychyear]

A buddy of mine told me a method to get out of getting mugged in college. Pretend you have schizophrenia. While I was a medstudent, got on a train to NYC, when the conductor showed up to take my ticket I played the act and he just walked along without asking me for my ticket.
(Mind you at the time I was in debt, not making money, and wouldn't do that now).

after some reflection, I will increase my spending from 3k to 4k for 2019. I feel i am making progress spending 11k in 2017 (lived at home) then 36k in 2018 (apartment) to 2019 potential 48 to 50k expense and i am considering not adding my office expense such as staff,utility to my personal budget as after speaking to collegues they were shocked i was including that in my 3k expense. how will i spend the roughly 1000-1500 a month or the 300-400 a week i have no idea but i am taking a trip to vegas next month. I don't skimp on travel, food, just an fyi it usually is just material things like a better tv when i have a 55 inch led or a new car lease or an even better apartment.

 

[dpmd]

after some reflection, I will increase my spending from 3k to 4k for 2019. I feel i am making progress spending 11k in 2017 (lived at home) then 36k in 2018 (apartment) to 2019 potential 48 to 50k expense and i am considering not adding my office expense such as staff,utility to my personal budget as after speaking to collegues they were shocked i was including that in my 3k expense. how will i spend the roughly 1000-1500 a month or the 300-400 a week i have no idea but i am taking a trip to vegas next month. I don't skimp on travel, food, just an fyi it usually is just material things like a better tv when i have a 55 inch led or a new car lease or an even better apartment.

If your current apartment is in a safe neighborhood and has room for someone to visit it is probably fine. If the place isn't that big then a bigger tv probably doesn't make sense so I don't know what else can really be better about a tv. If there is a hobby you like that you have not done due to money that might be a place to put some money. Or maybe more travel.

 

[AD04]

after some reflection, I will increase my spending from 3k to 4k for 2019. I feel i am making progress spending 11k in 2017 (lived at home) then 36k in 2018 (apartment) to 2019 potential 48 to 50k expense and i am considering not adding my office expense such as staff,utility to my personal budget as after speaking to collegues they were shocked i was including that in my 3k expense. how will i spend the roughly 1000-1500 a month or the 300-400 a week i have no idea but i am taking a trip to vegas next month. I don't skimp on travel, food, just an fyi it usually is just material things like a better tv when i have a 55 inch led or a new car lease or an even better apartment.

Be natural about it. If you there is no need to spend and you have no desire to spend, don’t spend.

There seems to be a correlation between those who post on this forum and frugality. Why is that?

 

[TexasPhysician]

There seems to be a correlation between those who post on this forum and frugality. Why is that?

Those that aren’t relatively frugal are working extra hours to pay for the mansion. Those that are relatively frugal can spend more time playing with the kids and posting on SDN while hanging out.

 

[finalpsychyear]

If your current apartment is in a safe neighborhood and has room for someone to visit it is probably fine. If the place isn't that big then a bigger tv probably doesn't make sense so I don't know what else can really be better about a tv. If there is a hobby you like that you have not done due to money that might be a place to put some money. Or maybe more travel.

Yes, it is very safe except i realize for the future i want the hotel type of apartment where you walk into a central lobby and either stairs or elevator is indoor vs the kind i have is like a motel model where there is no elevator and the stairs are outdoors. Spot on about the tv.. i would actually spend some $ on a good one but i'd want it mounted and i might move in the next year so not worth it esp my apartment is only 1100 sq feet so not all that big. Gym/tennis are my main hobbies so even though i hate paying for tennis i still do it most weeks now.

I am considering working even more next year but i am not exactly sure why. I have this idea that i need to "take advantage" while the jobs are plentiful and push myself. I work 32 clinical hours a week, no wknds, no call and am considering pushing it to 60 hrs somewhat to see if i can handle it, somewhat to get more inpt psych exposure, and of course to expedite the process i am doing.

I can easily drop the additional gig if it gets to be too much and keep everything i have now so i see no downside to maybe give it a shot.
If i do stick with the additional gig pushing me to 60 hrs, i would think a used car lease (camry) would be earned since i am tired of riding my bike as i fell twice this week due to inclement weather.

 

[Merely]

Be natural about it. If you there is no need to spend and you have no desire to spend, don’t spend.

There seems to be a correlation between those who post on this forum and frugality. Why is that?

Those that aren’t relatively frugal are working extra hours to pay for the mansion. Those that are relatively frugal can spend more time playing with the kids and posting on SDN while hanging out.

More social, more hobbies, more interested in living an expensive, exciting life = less likely to post on an online forum

 

[WisNeuro]

i would think a used car lease (camry) would be earned since i am tired of riding my bike as i fell twice this week due to inclement weather.

If frugality is your game, buy used, don't lease. By and large, leasing is a sucker's game, financially speaking.

 

[finalpsychyear]

If frugality is your game, buy used, don't lease. By and large, leasing is a sucker's game, financially speaking.

If i am not mistaken, since i have a sole prop business, I believe leasing a used car has business deductions i can take such as 60% being used for business deduct from lease cost. Additionally, gas/insurance/repairs/registration are fully deducted. I also plan to stop paying $100 dollar a month for my health insurance which is short term plans and poney up for a normal 275/month plan which hurts me just talking about it since i NEVER use it. It does allow me then to have an 3600/year HSA contribution along with the 275 being deductible so i think its a smart decision i hope?

P.S. the bike comment was a joke above.

 

[PsyDr]

@finalpsychyear

I was in your shoes at some point. It was ridiculous. Had been used to being on the financial edge for years. Could not fathom that I would be okay.

I can go into examples if you want. The theme is that it took a LOT of time and effort to save money. And my hourly rate far exceeded what I was saving.

Took some time, some therapy, and some brutal self reflection about what I wanted out of life, what my realistic options were, and such. Probably not going to have a private jet in the game I chose. Probably not going to be homeless. Probably gonna die in the next 30-40 years if I’m lucky. Don’t care about a specific charity enough to dedicate my life to things. Probably not going to get the nice jobs if I’m dressing not so nice.

Made some decisions about how I want to spend my time. Informed how I want to spend money. It’s just a tool.

Aside from that: if you’re not incorporated, get a SEP now!

@WisNeuro

One can put a lease into an LLC, and deduct that IF you have a personal car. What that personal car is can be a matter of choice. I know a guy whose LLC car is around 80-90k and his personal car is a POS 1980s Mercedes.

 

[atomi]

I’ve thought about buying a used sports car under $30k for 2 years. It’s not that I couldn’t reproduce the money in 2 months. I wonder if the idea of having it is more exciting than actually owning it.

Buy a 2002-2004 corvette z06 with a manual transmission. You can get one for around 17k. It’s faster than Ferraris of the same era and will still turn heads. Reliable and tons of fun. When you’re done with it, sell for the same you bought it for.

If you’re feeling baller, buy a 2006 Aston Martin vantage. You can get one for 40k. Ultimate in luxury and build quality and people will think you paid 200.k for it.

People who take out a lease on a generic new beige or tan 90k Mercedes sedan are suckers IMO.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah yes, if you can squeeze the lease into the business, it can work. My assumption was purely for personal use with no intention to use as a business expense, in which case teh buying almost always works out better than leasing.

 

[TexasPhysician]

If i am not mistaken, since i have a sole prop business, I believe leasing a used car has business deductions i can take such as 60% being used for business deduct from lease cost. Additionally, gas/insurance/repairs/registration are fully deducted. I also plan to stop paying $100 dollar a month for my health insurance which is short term plans and poney up for a normal 275/month plan which hurts me just talking about it since i NEVER use it. It does allow me then to have an 3600/year HSA contribution along with the 275 being deductible so i think its a smart decision i hope?

P.S. the bike comment was a joke above.

I’ve deducted the purchase of a new SUV. Purchasing often has equal or better deductions than leasing.

 

[dpmd]

If frugality is your game, buy used, don't lease. By and large, leasing is a sucker's game, financially speaking.

There is this idea that leasing a car via your business makes financial sense. I still purchase and deduct the usual stuff plus depreciation and it seems good enough that way but I never sat down and ran through the costs either way. I think the last time I looked it up it depended on what sort of car you were going for since the limits vary. I am sure it depends on if you have the cash to buy it versus if you would otherwise need a loan.

 

[dpmd]

@finalpsychyear

I was in your shoes at some point. It was ridiculous. Had been used to being on the financial edge for years. Could not fathom that I would be okay.

I can go into examples if you want. The theme is that it took a LOT of time and effort to save money. And my hourly rate far exceeded what I was saving.

Took some time, some therapy, and some brutal self reflection about what I wanted out of life, what my realistic options were, and such. Probably not going to have a private jet in the game I chose. Probably not going to be homeless. Probably gonna die in the next 30-40 years if I’m lucky. Don’t care about a specific charity enough to dedicate my life to things. Probably not going to get the nice jobs if I’m dressing not so nice.

Made some decisions about how I want to spend my time. Informed how I want to spend money. It’s just a tool.

Aside from that: if you’re not incorporated, get a SEP now!

@WisNeuro

One can put a lease into an LLC, and deduct that IF you have a personal car. What that personal car is can be a matter of choice. I know a guy whose LLC car is around 80-90k and his personal car is a POS 1980s Mercedes.

I like the solo 401k over the sep but either way taking advantage of that tax deferred space is good.

Your point about what frugality costs you and identifying your goals of saving as well as your goals for your time is important too. For me my time is most valuable so I choose to work less than most people even though I genuinely like my work. Sometimes luxury is worth the expense like first class upgrades on some flights. Other times it is not, like designer goods for day to day wear (though I have some good quality clothes even if they aren't fancy designer pieces or the latest trends because sometime you need to present yourself less casually). Some frugality is simple (like getting the store brand instead of name brand at the store unless it doesn't taste as good. I do that sort of stuff often. Other frugality takes a lot of effort like going through the sales circulars and clipping coupons. I don't necessarily do that. But I have simple tastes and even when I allow free range with money I don't tend to spend a ton. I went on a clothes shopping trip to celebrate my first attending paycheck with the idea that I could spend it all if desired (having a working spouse means more disposable income). I bought everything that I looked good in and didn't pay attention to prices but I ended up under 2k because I got bored of shopping (though I ended up with a great work wardrobe even though I wear scrubs most of the time).

 

[finalpsychyear]

@finalpsychyear

I was in your shoes at some point. It was ridiculous. Had been used to being on the financial edge for years. Could not fathom that I would be okay.

I can go into examples if you want. The theme is that it took a LOT of time and effort to save money. And my hourly rate far exceeded what I was saving.

Took some time, some therapy, and some brutal self reflection about what I wanted out of life, what my realistic options were, and such. Probably not going to have a private jet in the game I chose. Probably not going to be homeless. Probably gonna die in the next 30-40 years if I’m lucky. Don’t care about a specific charity enough to dedicate my life to things. Probably not going to get the nice jobs if I’m dressing not so nice.

Made some decisions about how I want to spend my time. Informed how I want to spend money. It’s just a tool.

Aside from that: if you’re not incorporated, get a SEP now!

Started the sep already last year and hope to do it for as long as i can.

I like the solo 401k over the sep but either way taking advantage of that tax deferred space is good.

Your point about what frugality costs you and identifying your goals of saving as well as your goals for your time is important too. For me my time is most valuable so I choose to work less than most people even though I genuinely like my work. Sometimes luxury is worth the expense like first class upgrades on some flights. Other times it is not, like designer goods for day to day wear (though I have some good quality clothes even if they aren't fancy designer pieces or the latest trends because sometime you need to present yourself less casually). Some frugality is simple (like getting the store brand instead of name brand at the store unless it doesn't taste as good. I do that sort of stuff often. Other frugality takes a lot of effort like going through the sales circulars and clipping coupons. I don't necessarily do that. But I have simple tastes and even when I allow free range with money I don't tend to spend a ton. I went on a clothes shopping trip to celebrate my first attending paycheck with the idea that I could spend it all if desired (having a working spouse means more disposable income). I bought everything that I looked good in and didn't pay attention to prices but I ended up under 2k because I got bored of shopping (though I ended up with a great work wardrobe even though I wear scrubs most of the time).

To psych:
Started the sep already last year and hope to do it for as long as i can.

To DP:
I have this fantasy where i have a 10 mill nest egg and it earns me 400-500k a year just from existing. Then i can truly enjoy my money esp if i still work part time. I wonder if i can attain that in 20 years doing what i am doing for the next 10 years ( investing everything plus the sep iras, hsa, etc, no kids, no house 3-4k expense per month) then ease up a bit for the following 10 years which for me would mean spending from 3k to maybe lets be crazy and say 6k a month provided no major stock market crashes. Maybe i will need to do an annuity as well as i would love to have 200k a year when i am 60 essentially guaranteed then i guess the 400-500 goal would only need to be 200-250.

Edit: I did some math and i think with sep plus trad ira you can hit about 60k a year then lets say you do another 60k a year on your own and if you start with 1 mill invested you can approach 10mill in 20 years while living much more freely maybe then i am.

 

[PsyDr]

Your math is bad. You are ahead of the game, and are making some significant errors.

1) capital appreciates. Your estimation for a nest egg is wrong. Let’s say you’re 30. Save using a SEP @ ~ $50k/yr. By 60, that’s around $5-$10MM mark, without extra effort.

2) you’re not factoring in Bernicke spending models. Hint: when you get old you spend less because you’re old.

3) not buying a house is probably a bad idea.

 

[betamale]

The more you spend, the more you have to work. The less you spend -> more free time to spend doing things for fun.

I don't regret giving up $3000 to skip a tiring 12 hr night shift...the extra sleep, reduced stress is well worth it

 

[dl2dp2]

For a forum full of psychiatrists, I find it interesting that nobody has suggested that OP look for some quality psychodynamic psychotherapy to get a grip on what is *actually* going on.

I see at least 2 criteria for OCPD checked here at minimum:
3. Is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity).
7. Adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes.

I'm not saying there's anything diagnosable here necessarily (first of all, for a DIAGNOSIS you need 4 items in A minimum, plus you need B,C,D), but I think this is a good time to take some time to see what the big picture is.

To me, one of the main advantages of being a psychiatrist is the *lifestyle* of this particular specialty in allowing you 1) reflect more deeply about your life 2) develop a rich and fulfilling life with your work. If you are compulsively working and saving in a pathological way, in my opinion it interferes with your effectiveness in developing into a better psychiatrist--since to evaluate "functioning" appropriately it requires some idea of the spectrum of human fulfillment might look like. This consideration of course affects some practice contexts more than others, but I'm speaking of generalities.

 

[finalpsychyear]

For a forum full of psychiatrists, I find it interesting that nobody has suggested that OP look for some quality psychodynamic psychotherapy to get a grip on what is *actually* going on.

I see at least 2 criteria for OCPD checked here at minimum:
3. Is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity).
7. Adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes.

I'm not saying there's anything diagnosable here necessarily (first of all, for a DIAGNOSIS you need 4 items in A minimum, plus you need B,C,D), but I think this is a good time to take some time to see what the big picture is.

To me, one of the main advantages of being a psychiatrist is the *lifestyle* of this particular specialty in allowing you 1) reflect more deeply about your life 2) develop a rich and fulfilling life with your work. If you are compulsively working and saving in a pathological way, in my opinion it interferes with your effectiveness in developing into a better psychiatrist--since to evaluate "functioning" appropriately it requires some idea of the spectrum of human fulfillment might look like. This consideration of course affects some practice contexts more than others, but I'm speaking of generalities.

I know your intentions are good but you do raise good points that i need to have more reflection .. i work 32 hours a week. Gym daily. And tennis 2x a week. Multiple siblings in area where I live and we hang out regularly. GF who wants to spend time 24/7.... Friends i agree maybe 1x a month hangouts should be more but that's on me. Lots of phone convos though.If anything i feel i don't get enuf me time. Also, I moved to this area a few months ago from where i was practicing so i am driving back and forth as i build a practice in the current area so its just a lot going on. Remember I had no savings when i started working in 2017 due to paying off debts so its not a great feeling and a normal response would be to minimize spending if your bank account had nothing in it but damn it feels good to be debt and loan free.

I appreciate your concern but i am just not materialistic and with my FIRE thinking it may just be unusual that as an attending earning what you guys know we do that i spend at any unusually low rate but the reality is its to give a super boost to my lack of savings/retirement compared to friends who have put nearly a decade into their IT/engineer jobs with matching benefits and retirement.

Also, I am very pessimistic about healthcare with amazon/walmart just chomping at the bit to get involved. I live in 5 year windows where i don't see major changes for the bad happening but further than that i am glum although it still would not be likely. It prevents me from being complacent. This is a golden time i psychiatry as all my elder attendings keep telling me. The pendulum has swung in a very positive way and will eventually scale back. Any surgical specialty hearing i work 32 hours and considering 60 would have thought i was coming back from some injury.

 

[PsyDr]

@sluox I am very open with likely having ocpd and having undergone psychoanalysis.

@finalpsychyear

I believe that even if there is a huge change in healthcare, psychology and psychiatry will be well preserved for a much longer time. People want to talk. Even if it all goes away, you’ll need to do something with your time, lest you wind up like a lot of my surgeon friends.

If you believe that those firms will destroy healthcare, invest accordingly. I’ve made a lot of money betting on specific behaviors during specific economic climates.

 

[finalpsychyear]

@sluox I am very open with likely having ocpd and having undergone psychoanalysis.

@finalpsychyear

I believe that even if there is a huge change in healthcare, psychology and psychiatry will be well preserved for a much longer time. People want to talk. Even if it all goes away, you’ll need to do something with your time, lest you wind up like a lot of my surgeon friends.

If you believe that those firms will destroy healthcare, invest accordingly. I’ve made a lot of money betting on specific behaviors during specific economic climates.

Next 10 years i don't see anything changing. 10-15 years ago some changes maybe. 20 years+ for sure but i won't be in medicine i seriously hope.

Working 60 hrs, 4-5 wks off per year, no wknds, no call, and keeping my budget to 5k in expenses should allow me in 10 years to go part time i would think.
Would feel weird to be early 40 and working PT but I will continue posting during this journey till then at least.

 

[Monocles]

Mine is a "special" one that allows you to play games for free.

Ah... nice. 😉

 

[Stagg737]

For a forum full of psychiatrists, I find it interesting that nobody has suggested that OP look for some quality psychodynamic psychotherapy to get a grip on what is *actually* going on.

I see at least 2 criteria for OCPD checked here at minimum:
3. Is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity).
7. Adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes.

I'm not saying there's anything diagnosable here necessarily (first of all, for a DIAGNOSIS you need 4 items in A minimum, plus you need B,C,D), but I think this is a good time to take some time to see what the big picture is.

To me, one of the main advantages of being a psychiatrist is the *lifestyle* of this particular specialty in allowing you 1) reflect more deeply about your life 2) develop a rich and fulfilling life with your work. If you are compulsively working and saving in a pathological way, in my opinion it interferes with your effectiveness in developing into a better psychiatrist--since to evaluate "functioning" appropriately it requires some idea of the spectrum of human fulfillment might look like. This consideration of course affects some practice contexts more than others, but I'm speaking of generalities.

I addressed it in the 4th or 5th post of the thread. OP does not seem overly distressed by these habits, has a decent balance, and seems to plan to increase spending. If it were truly distressing I'd agree with you, but it doesn't sound like OP is at that point.

Additionally, I know of another physician who took a somewhat similar perspective as OP. He was in emergency medicine and busted his butt for his first 5 to 7 years after residency to save up a big nest egg and then just worked part time. Some people don't mind killing themselves for 10 years to have an easy rest of their career and even with the frugal spending OP seems to be doing pretty well.

 

[erg923]

"To get a grip on what is *actually* going on."

Come on, dude?! Could you be any less stereotypical psychobabble condescending. This isn't a movie.

Not pathological in the slightest--seems psychiatric medicine is prone to this habit. Is it not? Or, I'm sorry, are you known/infamous for normalizing behavior? Not what I would do (or what many people in high earning careers do), but the ballpark of normality applies here, right? OCPD? Seems culturally crafted/defined on the face of it. Ridiculous. No wonder 5-6 year-olds are being drugged with this kind of attitude/thinking.

If a collection of psychological and physical habits regarding money-saving are "unhealthy" in the context of high earnings and well reasoned rationales, well...lets just sociologically indict our whole society/culture, right?

 

[PsyDr]

Next 10 years i don't see anything changing. 10-15 years ago some changes maybe. 20 years+ for sure but i won't be in medicine i seriously hope.

Working 60 hrs, 4-5 wks off per year, no wknds, no call, and keeping my budget to 5k in expenses should allow me in 10 years to go part time i would think.
Would feel weird to be early 40 and working PT but I will continue posting during this journey till then at least.

Rules of 7 says that if you get $1MM at 40, then you’d have around $8mm by 61 without further contributions. I’m extremely familiar with this set up.

 

[Merely]

Agreed.

"To get a grip on what is *actually* going on."

Come on, dude?! Could you be any less stereotypical psychobabble condescending. This isn't a movie. Not pathological in the slightest--seems psychiatric medicine is prone to this habit. Is it not?

Not what I would do (or what many people in high earning careers do), but the ballpark of normality applies here, right? OCPD? Seems culturally crafted/defined on the face of it. Ridiculous. No wonder 5-6 year-olds are being drugged with this kind of attitude/thinking.

If a collection of psychological and physical habits regarding money-saving are "unhealthy" in the contextg of high earnings and well reasoned rationales, well...lets just sociologically indict our whole society/culture, right?

I’m very confused by your post. Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? are you trying to say that he has ocpd or not? Are you suggesting that the psychiatrist who suggested insight oriented therapy was wrong in doing so? Im not clear on the meaning of your post I must’ve missed something

 

[erg923]

I’m very confused by your post. Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? are you trying to say that he has ocpd or not? Are you suggesting that the psychiatrist who suggested insight oriented therapy was wrong in doing so? Im not clear on the meaning of your post I must’ve missed something

Not sure what professional title matters here???

I am suggesting that @sluox post suggested the (potential) pathologizing of normal, if but extreme, rationale behavior(s). With the added benefit of inquiring (chastising?) why others in the field did not pathologize the behavior and actions of the OP.

Thus leading to the conclusion that, its no wonder so many children (and adults) are prescribed "psychotropic medications" in this country--if indeed this is the profession's attitude and metric about "pathology/psychopathology."

 

[Stagg737]

I’m very confused by your post. Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? are you trying to say that he has ocpd or not? Are you suggesting that the psychiatrist who suggested insight oriented therapy was wrong in doing so? Im not clear on the meaning of your post I must’ve missed something

He's saying OP does not have a personality disorder and that he doesn't need to "get a grip on what's actually going on" because he does not have a pathological thought process. Just because a thought process is outside of what an individual may think of as "normal" does not mean it is pathological and it certainly does not need to be pyscho-analyzed and provided therapy to "get a grip" on his life.

Could counseling be beneficial? Sure. But most people could benefit from being forced to take more time for introspection and understand why they think the way they do. That does not mean we need to be providing psychotherapy to everyone who comes in with a problem and they certainly don't all need meds. I think there were some assumptions being made by both parties being referred to, but I understand both of their points.

Edit: Ninja'd by Erg...

 

[ridethecliche]

Med student here soooo yeah, not the best person to give advice .... Butttttt...

Why not work with a financial planner and figure out goals for retirement and work your budget based on that with more conservative estimates...

That way you're working towards something instead of living with this weird existential fear of spending money and living your life.

Do you want to travel? When are you going to do it if not when you're young? Being frugal is meaningless without goals and outlets. How can you enjoy yourself if you're guilty about investing money in your own health by socializing and playing sports?

Being happy doesn’t necessarily mean spending money. The only important question to ask yourself is if you are enjoying life.

My personal cc expense is almost always under $1k/month. I gain my happiness from my family, athletics, etc., not things. Our family budget is closer to $7k probably, with a mortgage, PT daycare, and whatever else my spouse spends money on.

I’ve thought about buying a used sports car under $30k for 2 years. It’s not that I couldn’t reproduce the money in 2 months. I wonder if the idea of having it is more exciting than actually owning it.

Get the car. Make it a convertible. They're fun.

Or sign up for a local track day with a rental package from a track school. You'll get your kicks and learn to drive better while doing it.

If frugality is your game, buy used, don't lease. By and large, leasing is a sucker's game, financially speaking.

I've seen the math done a few times for these and it's really deal dependant. Sometimes it's not a bad buy especially if you factor in better safety and convenience features that come up with every big update.

 

[WisNeuro]

I've seen the math done a few times for these and it's really deal dependant. Sometimes it's not a bad buy especially if you factor in better safety and convenience features that come up with every big update.

90%+ of the time if the vehicle is for personal use and not a business expense, leasing is a terrible option, money-wise. Safety features are pretty small in incremental value these days. Almost every financial planner/CPA/WCI/etc, will give you the same advice.