Overtime pay - new guidelines

[Spdycat]

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Apparently the overtime pay structure will be altered by the end of the year.

CNNMoney — Starting later this year, millions more workers will become eligible for overtime pay.

Under a new rule announced by the White House Tuesday, anybody making a salary of less than $47,476 ($913 a week) will automatically qualify for overtime pay when they work more than 40 hours a week.

That’s roughly double the $23,660 threshold (or $455 a week) that’s currently in place.

The change — which has been criticized as too drastic by many employers — will go into effect on Dec. 1, 2016. They are intended to expand access to overtime pay for otherwise low-salaried workers who log long hours but have been treated as exempt from overtime because they perform some managerial duties.

Link:
http://khon2.com/2016/05/17/new-rule-expands-overtime-pay-to-millions-of-salaried-workers/

Has anyone heard anything more about this? I wonder if it will affect internship/residency programs, thoughts?

 

[deleted498041]

Apparently the overtime pay structure will be altered by the end of the year.

CNNMoney — Starting later this year, millions more workers will become eligible for overtime pay.

Under a new rule announced by the White House Tuesday, anybody making a salary of less than $47,476 ($913 a week) will automatically qualify for overtime pay when they work more than 40 hours a week.

That’s roughly double the $23,660 threshold (or $455 a week) that’s currently in place.

The change — which has been criticized as too drastic by many employers — will go into effect on Dec. 1, 2016. They are intended to expand access to overtime pay for otherwise low-salaried workers who log long hours but have been treated as exempt from overtime because they perform some managerial duties.

Link:
http://khon2.com/2016/05/17/new-rule-expands-overtime-pay-to-millions-of-salaried-workers/

Has anyone heard anything more about this? I wonder if it will affect internship/residency programs, thoughts?

I think internships and residencies are exempt from a lot of these kinds of things, no? I mean, as far as I'm aware a lot of them don't even offer health insurance which is a big legal no-no in America, right? One of the internships I'm looking at has you scheduled 6 days a week and previous interns have told me to expect to work 20 hours a day for the first few months... My mum said there was an exemption for medical people, I'll see if she knows more.

 

[deleted498041]

Yeah, medical, law, accounting, engineering are exempt if you hold a "requisite academic degree... if he/she is engaged in an internship or resident program for the profession." It also goes on to say that you're exempt from minimum wage, which we all already knew.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think internships and residencies are exempt from a lot of these kinds of things, no? I mean, as far as I'm aware a lot of them don't even offer health insurance which is a big legal no-no in America, right? One of the internships I'm looking at has you scheduled 6 days a week and previous interns have told me to expect to work 20 hours a day for the first few months... My mum said there was an exemption for medical people, I'll see if she knows more.

I don't know about internships, but I definitely got health insurance when I was a resident.

20 hours a day for months on end isn't possible without the risk of both seriouh health issues and patient well-being. Any place that requires that of their interns should be shut down.

 

[deleted498041]

I don't know about internships, but I definitely got health insurance when I was a resident.

20 hours a day for months on end isn't possible without the risk of both seriouh health issues and patient well-being. Any place that requires that of their interns should be shut down.

Huh. I've been trying to look into health insurance during internships and I've just been told not to expect it. Full disclaimer, I haven't actually asked the hospitals themselves yet.

On the bright side, that 20 hours a day turns into a measly 14-16 just a few months later! Silver linings, and all that. It's an internship that is known for its rigor, and I really don't see it being shut down any time soon, or ever. Everyone I know that has done it speaks incredibly highly of the experience, despite having a hard time while actually being an intern.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Huh. I've been trying to look into health insurance during internships and I've just been told not to expect it. Full disclaimer, I haven't actually asked the hospitals themselves yet.

On the bright side, that 20 hours a day turns into a measly 14-16 just a few months later! Silver linings, and all that. It's an internship that is known for its rigor, and I really don't see it being shut down any time soon, or ever. Everyone I know that has done it speaks incredibly highly of the experience, despite having a hard time while actually being an intern.

Still. 20 has to be an exaggeration. The human body cannot function properly on 4 hours of sleep every day for weeks.

That doesn't sound like rigor to me. Rigor isn't about pushing people until they drop, it is making people learn and become competent vets. You aren't going to learn anything when your brain and body are mush.

 

[deleted498041]

Still. 20 has to be an exaggeration. The human body cannot function properly on 4 hours of sleep every day for weeks.

That doesn't sound like rigor to me. Rigor isn't about pushing people until they drop, it is making people learn and become competent vets. You aren't going to learn anything when your brain and body are mush.

Definitely not disagreeing with you, but I've verified with multiple people that 20 is not an exaggeration -- or at least it hasn't been for the last five years.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. What's the turnover like?

In my previous toxic lab, the few people who were favored and made it to the end only said good things; classic Stockholm syndrome. The majority of us who were driven out, however, saw things very differently.

There is no reason to work a 20 hour days for months. I would run screaming from an internship like that. You physically and mentally cannot reach your full potential like that, and that's what internships should be about. 12-14 hours, sure. 16-20 on occasion. But not 20 hr days 6 days a week for months. That's jeopardizing both the interns and the patients.

 

[variegata]

Huh. I've been trying to look into health insurance during internships and I've just been told not to expect it. Full disclaimer, I haven't actually asked the hospitals themselves yet.

On the bright side, that 20 hours a day turns into a measly 14-16 just a few months later! Silver linings, and all that. It's an internship that is known for its rigor, and I really don't see it being shut down any time soon, or ever. Everyone I know that has done it speaks incredibly highly of the experience, despite having a hard time while actually being an intern.

I had health insurance during my internship last year.

 

[deleted498041]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. What's the turnover like?

In my previous toxic lab, the few people who were favored and made it to the end only said good things; classic Stockholm syndrome. The majority of us who were driven out, however, saw things very differently.

There is no reason to work a 20 hour days for months. I would run screaming from an internship like that. You physically and mentally cannot reach your full potential like that, and that's what internships should be about. 12-14 hours, sure. 16-20 on occasion. But not 20 hr days 6 days a week for months. That's jeopardizing both the interns and the patients.

Turn over for the interns? I haven't heard of anyone failing to complete their internship at this hospital. Can't speak for their residency program.

 

[SocialStigma]

I currently have health (and dental) insurance during my internship. All of the rotating internships I applied to had health and dental, I can't think of a single one actually that didn't. Same for all of the residency programs I applied to as well. Working 20 hours/day is definitely not the norm for an internship and I would never apply to an internship where that is to be expected.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Turn over for the interns? I haven't heard of anyone failing to complete their internship at this hospital. Can't speak for their residency program.

Eh, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I didn't know how many people had dropped out of my previous lab until I did some serious digging, because no one ever talked about them. It was like they never existed.

 

[JaynaAli]

VCA offers medical, vision, and dental insurance (albeit not that great of coverage). Plus they cover you for $50,000 life insurance at no cost and you can buy other coverage like accident, supplemental life, etc.

 

[pp9]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. What's the turnover like?

In my previous toxic lab, the few people who were favored and made it to the end only said good things; classic Stockholm syndrome. The majority of us who were driven out, however, saw things very differently.

There is no reason to work a 20 hour days for months. I would run screaming from an internship like that. You physically and mentally cannot reach your full potential like that, and that's what internships should be about. 12-14 hours, sure. 16-20 on occasion. But not 20 hr days 6 days a week for months. That's jeopardizing both the interns and the patients.

Our student body was recently told during a meeting that "We'd be doing you a disservice if we didn't have you functioning under a lack of sleep. That's how you determine your performance while exhausted and what your limits are." This was in context of fourth years being called in to do TPRs in the ICU, then stand around for hours until they had to report to their rotation at what would have been the start of their day. Probably not something that lasts for months straight for an individual student, but to me it sounds a bit like one of those 'rite of passage' things. Definitely don't agree with it, especially since I'm sure we all know/can imagine how poorly we'd perform with little or no sleep.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Our student body was recently told during a meeting that "We'd be doing you a disservice if we didn't have you functioning under a lack of sleep. That's how you determine your performance while exhausted and what your limits are." This was in context of fourth years being called in to do TPRs in the ICU, then stand around for hours until they had to report to their rotation at what would have been the start of their day. Probably not something that lasts for months straight for an individual student, but to me it sounds a bit like one of those 'rite of passage' things. Definitely don't agree with it, especially since I'm sure we all know/can imagine how poorly we'd perform with little or no sleep.

Unfortunately, this is a big reason why overwork of interns and residents exists. People (not you in particular, just people in general and especially people in positions of power) just assume that this is how it is, and this is how it always should be, and you just need to accept being worked to death because that is "the norm". It's a huge problem not just in veterinary medicine, but in academia and graduate/professional studies as a whole. It eventually results not only in toxic programs, but also a really nasty competitive attitude between people - i.e. working more hours makes you a better vet, people that can't physically deal with that are failures or can't "hack it", that the only way to prove yourself is working yourself into the ground, etc.

To be fair, you absolutely have to push people. And yes, people need to learn what their limits are, and a lot of the time this involves working under a lot of stress with not enough sleep. You are going to have 16+ hour days sometimes, you are going to be constantly called in sometimes, you're going to probably sleep at the hospital sometimes, you're going to have to fight through the exhaustion to perform your duties. That's fair. However, the situation Rw was describing goes way past that and IMO could have serious effects not only on the physical and mental health of the interns but also proper care of patients.

 

[WillowLeaf]

20 hours/day sounds absolutely miserable. Once you factor in time to drive home and eat and feed pets and maybe shower, that's maybe three hours of sleep.

Is a 12-14 hour/day schedule (with occasional longer days) more common for internships and residencies, then? Recently I've been getting the message that I shouldn't bother aiming for a residency if I can't handle a few hours of sleep a night for most of three years. I'd love to specialize but I know my emotional health couldn't tolerate that.

 

[JaynaAli]

20 hours/day sounds absolutely miserable. Once you factor in time to drive home and eat and feed pets and maybe shower, that's maybe three hours of sleep.

Is a 12-14 hour/day schedule (with occasional longer days) more common for internships and residencies, then? Recently I've been getting the message that I shouldn't bother aiming for a residency if I can't handle a few hours of sleep a night for most of three years. I'd love to specialize but I know my emotional health couldn't tolerate that.

My (private practice) internship varies by the specialty you're on. This month, I have had 13-14 hour days on average which is a great month. Our busiest rotation is more like 16-18 hours per day. I'm a little faster at paperwork than my internmates tend to be so I get home a bit earlier than they do usually. I've worked two 36 hour straight shifts due to emergency hemilaminectomies coming in and keeping me (and the neurosurgeon) there all night. I feel like that was ridiculous and shouldn't have happened because of the increased risk I was at for making mistakes due to being so tired, but luckily that has only happened twice all year (no other interns have had to do it). I've worked on 3-4 hours of sleep many times but I'd say more often I get 6-7 hours of sleep. I function best with 8-9 hours but it's doable for me. On my days off I spend most of the first day catching up on sleep. I live <5 minutes from the clinic and feed my dog at the clinic while working on the paperwork so that does help with time at home being maximized.

 

[SocialStigma]

20 hours/day sounds absolutely miserable. Once you factor in time to drive home and eat and feed pets and maybe shower, that's maybe three hours of sleep.

Is a 12-14 hour/day schedule (with occasional longer days) more common for internships and residencies, then? Recently I've been getting the message that I shouldn't bother aiming for a residency if I can't handle a few hours of sleep a night for most of three years. I'd love to specialize but I know my emotional health couldn't tolerate that.

Definitely depends on the service you're on and also how far you live from the clinic. 12-14 hour days are typical for my private practice internship on surgery and IM. Neuro tends to have longer days (because the neurologists see appts in the mornings, then work up the case, then cut the case in the afternoon/evening), probably around 16 hours by the time you finish rounding and doing paperwork. On ER it's typically more like 16-18 hour days, especially if you're working a long weekend. I have to say though, I've been pleasantly surprised by the amount of sleep I'm getting (I was expecting way worse). I've never slept less than 6 hours in a night (except if I get called in for emergency surgery or if I'm on ER night shifts) since starting my internship and typically I average 7-8 hours of sleep per night. But I also live an 8 min walk from the clinic, don't have pets, bring all my food for the day to the clinic (including lunch and dinner - thus saving time on having to go buy/prepare food during the work day), and have fine-tuned my morning routine down to 20 mins (from the time my alarm rings to when I'm heading out my door).

I am the type of person who needs sleep (8-9 hours is my ideal) to function, and this year has been very doable for me. So it's not entirely impossible to still have a fairly healthy sleep schedule during an internship!

 

[WillowLeaf]

My (private practice) internship varies by the specialty you're on. This month, I have had 13-14 hour days on average which is a great month. Our busiest rotation is more like 16-18 hours per day. I'm a little faster at paperwork than my internmates tend to be so I get home a bit earlier than they do usually. I've worked two 36 hour straight shifts due to emergency hemilaminectomies coming in and keeping me (and the neurosurgeon) there all night. I feel like that was ridiculous and shouldn't have happened because of the increased risk I was at for making mistakes due to being so tired, but luckily that has only happened twice all year (no other interns have had to do it). I've worked on 3-4 hours of sleep many times but I'd say more often I get 6-7 hours of sleep. I function best with 8-9 hours but it's doable for me. On my days off I spend most of the first day catching up on sleep. I live <5 minutes from the clinic and feed my dog at the clinic while working on the paperwork so that does help with time at home being maximized.

Definitely depends on the service you're on and also how far you live from the clinic. 12-14 hour days are typical for my private practice internship on surgery and IM. Neuro tends to have longer days (because the neurologists see appts in the mornings, then work up the case, then cut the case in the afternoon/evening), probably around 16 hours by the time you finish rounding and doing paperwork. On ER it's typically more like 16-18 hour days, especially if you're working a long weekend. I have to say though, I've been pleasantly surprised by the amount of sleep I'm getting (I was expecting way worse). I've never slept less than 6 hours in a night (except if I get called in for emergency surgery or if I'm on ER night shifts) since starting my internship and typically I average 7-8 hours of sleep per night. But I also live an 8 min walk from the clinic, don't have pets, bring all my food for the day to the clinic (including lunch and dinner - thus saving time on having to go buy/prepare food during the work day), and have fine-tuned my morning routine down to 20 mins (from the time my alarm rings to when I'm heading out my door).

I am the type of person who needs sleep (8-9 hours is my ideal) to function, and this year has been very doable for me. So it's not entirely impossible to still have a fairly healthy sleep schedule during an internship!

Oh, good, that's reassuring to hear. It's concerning when people tell me that interns and residents are expected to live on 3-4 hours (and sometimes less) every night - that's not good for interns' and residents' health and seems like a bad idea to require people to treat patients while being so sleep deprived.

Thanks for the specific input about the schedules - makes me think I should really make sure I have a good living situation for any future internships (living really close, finding a housemate who will trade helping with my pets for cheap rent, being very organized...).

Does anyone know if this is true for residencies as well? I've been told they're worse than internships for people who like a reasonable amount of sleep, but wondering how extreme the hours are. I'm sure it varies by residency though.

 

[LetItSnow]

There is no reason to work a 20 hour days for months. I would run screaming from an internship like that. You physically and mentally cannot reach your full potential like that, and that's what internships should be about. 12-14 hours, sure. 16-20 on occasion. But not 20 hr days 6 days a week for months. That's jeopardizing both the interns and the patients.

I think it would be interesting to objectively track these hours. I strongly suspect an element of exaggeration. It just isn't physiologically possible to work 20 hour days for months on end. Just not humanely possible.

It is probably more like 14-hr days with occasional "oh crap I'm here 4-6 hrs more than usual".....

People always exaggerate their hours. Or they note that they are at the hospital for 20 hours but forget to mention they only actually worked 14 of the hours.

 

[deleted498041]

I think it would be interesting to objectively track these hours. I strongly suspect an element of exaggeration. It just isn't physiologically possible to work 20 hour days for months on end. Just not humanely possible.

It is probably more like 14-hr days with occasional "oh crap I'm here 4-6 hrs more than usual".....

People always exaggerate their hours. Or they note that they are at the hospital for 20 hours but forget to mention they only actually worked 14 of the hours.

That's true, definitely didn't consider that. I would imagine some of the excessive hours comes from learning your way around the hospital and their protocols, being slow at paperwork, etc, especially since they said after a few months it dropped to less hours per day.