Parvo vs Socialization

[sumstorm]

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So, many vets I have met advise against taking puppies out until they have completed thier vax serious, some far more stringently than others. At our clinic, the vet advises puppy owners not to expose thier pups to any place where other dogs of unknown vax history may have been, including unfenced yards, pup training classes, etc.

As an experienced dog trainer, I feel that socialization is critical, and waiting till the completion of the full vaccination series is detrimental to socialization. I am not suggesting pups should be recklessly exposed to unvaccinated dogs...or that the risk isn't real, but that the risk of an unsocialized dog having an unpleasant life, or a shortened life is just as significant.

Any views on this? Any good compromises?

 

[EqSci]

I think compromise is the key word. You can still socialize without exposing them to high risk areas. i.e. stay out of dog parks, petsmarts and like where there is lots of dog traffic. Instead take them to home depot, walk them in town, etc. And as far as dog socialization, arrange meetings in different places with dogs of a known vax history (friends, family, etc). Yes, there's still a risk... but there's a risk no matter what you do, anyway.

Keeping your puppy in a bubble for the first 4 months of its life may eliminate the small risk of infection, but it also creates a dog that's unstable for the rest of its life. Not an acceptable trade-off, IMO.

 

[sumstorm]

EqSci, I fully agree.

Does anyone know of any stats on what the actual risk of parvo is? I am sure it differs by region...but even an average?

Would be interested to compare to destruction for socialization issues (though would need a questionaire and honest answers to determin early socialization.)

 

[HeartSong]

This was a big issue in my behavior med course. There's lots of factors to consider really. If the mother was vaccinated, then the pup is going to have some immunity from her (thus the prolonged byweekly vaccination protocol) but there's no good way to tell when the maternal immunity wears off and when the administered immunity takes affect. But an 8 week old pup is less likely to contract parvo than a 10 week old pup (most of the time with normal maternal antibodies). Sorry I can't really give you any actual resources for this, it was just what I was taught. Could be opinion of my prof too for that matter.

Anyway, let's say that a pup is at risk for contracting parvo. The worst place to take them is where other sick animals go, and yet no vet would recommend not to take them to a vet clinic to get their shots! I think that training classes are great as long as you are sure that the instructor keeps the area as clean as a vet's office. Parvo is not contracted directly from another dog but from their feces. However, the virus can survive in the environment for a long time and be carried on shoes/paws/etc. So a puppy is just as likely to get infected from you going somewhere and carrying the virus home on your shoes than if they go to that place themself. Unless of course you aren't watching him and let him eat stuff off the ground and so forth.

My prof said that with the advances in med and understanding, it is easier to treat parvo than behavior problems caused by lack of socialization. I don't know that I agree with that rationale, or that many clients would like it. But I do think that it is possible to prevent both as long as you are aware of where you are going. And if you ever do go somewhere that might have risk, to wash the pup when you get home to remove any virus that might be carried on him as well as your own shoes. But that's only if you want to be really paranoid about it. 😉

 

[david594]

My prof said that with the advances in med and understanding, it is easier to treat parvo than behavior problems caused by lack of socialization.

I work at an emergency clinic and our standard parvo estimate is $2500-3500. How much does it cost to treat those behavioral issues?

I work in a highly parvo endemic area, we see a lot of cases of it unfortunately.

 

[twelvetigers]

Heartsong, most clinics here in town don't even treat parvo. The expensive one does (assuming you know which one I mean) and the only other place is the vet school. Given the little isolation room they use and the "suiting up" process involved, 24 hour care from student and staff... I'm betting it's a bit expensive, like David said. I suppose parvo is a more transient condition than behavioral issues, if the dog survives and all, but I don't see how it could be easier with the price tag that's attached.

Also, a recent phone call that I answered at work went like this:

On phone: I think my dog has parvo. Do you guys take payments?
Me: No, we can't do that. But I can tell you that a parvo snap test cost $, and the exam fee is $. So the total for that would be $$. (Under $100 easily)
On phone: Oh, well, we don't have any extra money. I'll have to talk to my wife.

A lot of the dogs with parvo are with owners that didn't vaccinate in the firs place. I guess this sort of negates the original idea of the thread - risk to puppies that ARE vaccinated - but I was just demonstrating that cost is usually the #1 issue.

 

[justinpaws]

I work at an emergency clinic and our standard parvo estimate is $2500-3500. How much does it cost to treat those behavioral issues?

Oh, I almost fell out of my seat when I read that. I didn't realize just how expensive our hospital was, but for the last parvo dog I worked with, the owner's final cost came close to $10,000.

Too bad I don't really have an idea as to whether there is some compromise. I've really just heard from vets that if your pup isn't fully vaccinated, don't let him get near other dogs at all. Someone who used to tech (I think this was in the midwest or so) told me that there was one bout of parvo that was so bad that all the coyotes in the area got it from the dogs and died. 🙁

 

[HeartSong]

😱 Wow, I've worked several parvo cases and they definitely weren't that expensive at the clinics I worked at. Maybe it was good clients who recognized signs before the cases became emergencies? I don't know. Also, I don't think the isolation should be that major of a concern, if it is then I don't think I would be taking my pet to a clinic that couldn't handle it. Maybe the clinics here aren't as well suited as where I've worked. But I've done my share of caring for isolated parvo dogs and cleaning their environment.

But like I said, I don't really agree with that rationale anyway. It's not a minor illness to be brushed off that easily.

The main concern is that the behavioral issues aren't treatable just manageable and pose public safety concerns that parvo doesn't. But as twelvetigers said, most people who care about money won't care about any of that anyway. They'll just dump the dog off at a shelter when it becomes too much to handle. I'm not saying that every dog that isn't socialized will have problems, but then again not every dog that is exposed to parvo will get sick. Of those that do get sick/ develop behavior problems .... it really is a guessing game as to which one will be worse.

 

[david594]

Also, I don't think the isolation should be that major of a concern, if it is then I don't think I would be taking my pet to a clinic that couldn't handle it. Maybe the clinics here aren't as well suited as where I've worked. But I've done my share of caring for isolated parvo dogs and cleaning their environment.

What do you mean about isolation shouldn't be that major of a concern?

How well suited were the places you worked? How did you handle parvo cases?

 

[HeartSong]

What do you mean about isolation shouldn't be that major of a concern?

How well suited were the places you worked? How did you handle parvo cases?

LOL, I definitely didn't mean it like that. Sorry, way bad wording there. I mean that yeah, you have to keep the pet in strict isolation and have super rigorous cleaning practices, but that's what the minimum wage slave labor is for.

We had a room that had it's own ventilation system (obviously not for parvo but other diseases that are airborne) and a door that went out to a fenced off outdoor area (gravel) that wasn't used for anything else. The room had four cages, a sink and it's own cleaning supplies that never left the room. Shoes were bleached when leaving. Everything in the room was bleached a couple of times a day. The dog was moved to a new kennel to clean the one it was in. I guess it wasn't that big a deal because we isolated a lot of animals for less serious contagious diseases than parvo and the procedure was pretty much the same.

Another place we just had a small room with a glass door. It was small enough that you never really entered the room where the kennels were. Just slid the glass door open, did what you needed to do, slid it closed and went to the sink to clean up. The only full cleaning done there was when the dog went home.

The first vet I worked for didn't keep a dog in an isolation ward, just seperate from the others. There were very few things that vet did that I would imitate.

 

[karmapple]

Oh, I almost fell out of my seat when I read that. I didn't realize just how expensive our hospital was, but for the last parvo dog I worked with, the owner's final cost came close to $10,000. 🙁

*Jaw drops in shock* 😱 I'm pretty sure if I went into an exam room at the emergency clinic where I work with an estimate for $10,000, I would probably get stabbed.

 

[Electrophile]

A dog is way more likely to be PTS from lack of socialization than die from parvo. Plus you can get parvo from your own backyard. All things in moderation. +1 to EqSci (from a behavior consultant)

 

[sumstorm]

Electrophile, our vets advise that the dog not go into unfenced yards. As in, if you don't know what's been in your yard, your dog is paper trained, etc.

As a dog trainer and an ethologist, it really upsets me, but I don't feel I can contradict that advice, since the vet is my boss.

I just can't even imagine what my dogs would be life if they hadn't been insanely socialized (i have search and rescue dogs) as pups.

 

[EqSci]

I know what you mean about not being able to speak up. It drove me NUTS when the vet I worked for told people that Purina is "an excellent, excellent food" to be feeding your dog. Then he would spout off about the 10 year research they did and give people pamphlets on it. 🙄 I wanted to run outside after the clients and set them straight!!!

 

[Electrophile]

I understand completely, sumstorm. Can you discuss risks versus benefits with him? When I got my Malinois pup (the one in the avatar), he went one new place with me every single day until he was like 14-16 weeks old. When you want a really stable, well adjusted dog, this is what you do, particularly when you have working/performance dogs as in your case. Did we go to the little 2-3 acre dog park where there are a bunch of rude dogs and people don't pick up after them? No. But we still were able to make it happen and now he's pretty much bombproof. I can bring him anywhere and he takes it in stride.

Basically, you get what, maybe a small handful of distemper cases each year? And a handful of parvo cases (unless it's the whole litter, which should be counted as one) a month? How many calls get made to put an undersocialized dog down that's shy sharp and a fear biter? Much is genetics, but not all. How many calls don't even get made to the vet and the dog goes straight to the shelter to be put to sleep? Not fun. 🙁 Parvo is treatable and with good nursing care, they can pull through. The socialization windows closing is something you can't ever get back.

 

[chagheill]

I work at an emergency clinic and our standard parvo estimate is $2500-3500. How much does it cost to treat those behavioral issues?

I work in a highly parvo endemic area, we see a lot of cases of it unfortunately.

Good God, that price is insane. I'm in a high-incidence area as well; I'd estimate we see about 5-6 dogs a month with it when you average out the outbreaks.

Typical total bill for a parvo puppy case at my clinic is $400-450 (usually a four day hospitalization). Includes everything: snap test, isolation, IV fluids / antibiotics, hospitalization, etc.

 

[justinpaws]

Good God, that price is insane. I'm in a high-incidence area as well; I'd estimate we see about 5-6 dogs a month with it when you average out the outbreaks.

Typical total bill for a parvo puppy case at my clinic is $400-450 (usually a four day hospitalization). Includes everything: snap test, isolation, IV fluids / antibiotics, hospitalization, etc.

Just goes to show how much people ignore my posts. I mentioned above that the bill for the last parvo case I dealt with was close to $10,000. Compared to that, $3,000 seems reasonable.

I also want to point out that the original post seems pretty ridiculous to me. "Should I take my dog out to play at the risk of him having to be hospitalized for a severe illness and possibly dying just so he's better-behaved?" Imagine yourself vomiting and having diarrhea fits day and night, isolated, hooked up to all kinds of fluids, sitting in your lonely cage for days or weeks. Can someone honestly think it's worth exposing an animal to something like that? That it's some kind of trade-off? That parvo is "curable" but bad behavior isn't? All the dogs I've had in my life have never had parvo and they were extremely well-behaved. Anyone who claims to be a highly experienced dog trainer but thinks that exposing an unvaccinated puppy is the only way to socialize him is not someone I'd trust with my pets.

 

[david594]

Good God, that price is insane. I'm in a high-incidence area as well; I'd estimate we see about 5-6 dogs a month with it when you average out the outbreaks.

Typical total bill for a parvo puppy case at my clinic is $400-450 (usually a four day hospitalization). Includes everything: snap test, isolation, IV fluids / antibiotics, hospitalization, etc.

Maybe I should have been more clear. We are a 24 hour emergency hospital, not just a clinic. We have the basic things you listed, but also baseline and repeat bloodwork during the stay, plasma transfusions and a few other things that add to the total cost.

 

[pyxystyx]

but for the last parvo dog I worked with, the owner's final cost came close to $10,000.

A friend of mine I worked with @ a shelter accidentaly brought the Parvo from work home to her 12-yr old, vaccinated German Shepherd. She paid that much ($10,000) for the treatment for her own dog, WITH her employee discount. 🙁

And to the OP, I think the first poster (EqSci?) got it on the money- there are easy ways so socialize without really compromising on the risk of exposure. Fenced or not fenced, all yards have a risk.

 

[pyxystyx]

I also want to point out that the original post seems pretty ridiculous to me. "Should I take my dog out to play at the risk of him having to be hospitalized for a severe illness and possibly dying just so he's better-behaved?"

... That it's some kind of trade-off? That parvo is "curable" but bad behavior isn't? All the dogs I've had in my life have never had parvo and they were extremely well-behaved.

Anyone who claims to be a highly experienced dog trainer but thinks that exposing an unvaccinated puppy is the only way to socialize him is not someone I'd trust with my pets.

Ditto that, yo.

 

[NZer]

I work in an area where parvo is rife. We see approximately 2-3 cases per week, and of course there are many many more who belong to owners who don't get treatment.

We have had 14 cases in the past month. Only 1 died, and that was one who came and was pretty much dead already. The rest bar one, are all doing very very well. (the one exception has a drugged up owner who *forgets* to bring pup in for treatment, so Im presuming he will be dead in a few days.)

Average cost to treat and save these pups? $300.

yes, three hundred dollars.

First consult and treatment $100 or thereabouts, then daily care around $35.

The main difference is that they are given sub-q fluids not put on IV drip, and they are cared for at home (and brought into the clinic daily for further fluids etc)

They are not allowed inside the clinic, everything is done in the carpark.

It may be primitave, but it works, and because we are in a relatively low income area, our costs are kept affordable to most.

I just cannot fathom having to tell our clients that they will need to pay $2-10k for treatment..wow...

Thankfully we no longer have distemper, vaccination over the past 10 years or so seems to have eradicated this in our area.

 

[HeartSong]

I also want to point out that the original post seems pretty ridiculous to me. "Should I take my dog out to play at the risk of him having to be hospitalized for a severe illness and possibly dying just so he's better-behaved?" Imagine yourself vomiting and having diarrhea fits day and night, isolated, hooked up to all kinds of fluids, sitting in your lonely cage for days or weeks. Can someone honestly think it's worth exposing an animal to something like that? That it's some kind of trade-off? That parvo is "curable" but bad behavior isn't? All the dogs I've had in my life have never had parvo and they were extremely well-behaved. Anyone who claims to be a highly experienced dog trainer but thinks that exposing an unvaccinated puppy is the only way to socialize him is not someone I'd trust with my pets.

Okay, let's try to put this into the real world. Do you keep up with current events? I really hope so, especially with animals and so forth. We aren't just talking the difference between a dog that kisses another dog versus one that barks at it. Sure, that may be true for your everyday poodle or golden retriever. But why do you think it is that Pit Bulls and other similar dogs are being banned? Is it because they're out spreading parvo to unsuspecting pups? Why is it that there's a show about a guy "fixing" behaviors in dogs in families desperate for help? Dogs of certain breeds or personalities of any breed or mix, if completely unsocialized, will have a higher chance of mauling or killing other dogs and even people.

Yeah, you had well behaved dogs, but what breeds were they? I have a Pit Bull/Boxer/Lab mix from unknown (aka probably fighting) lines that had to be hand reared from 4 days old. If he was in a home with novice dog owners who didn't socialize him, I guarantee you he would be another statistic of a dog PTS before 2 years old and possibly after the loss of another's life. So, to answer your question of if I think that a hospital stay with a severe illness is worth preventing that, absolutely! If I had to be in a hospital for a month with a severe disease to keep myself from attacking someone else, you bet I'd do it. I don't think it is necessary because there are ample ways to socialize a puppy without exposing them to the risk. However, parvo is invisible so you can't 100% be sure you aren't exposing your puppy at any given time.

Any vet who thinks I have to keep a puppy, during socialization period, locked in a house and only visit its own fenced in yard to prevent parvo at the risk of it becoming a vicious animal and a risk to public safety is not a vet I would trust to take any of my animals to.

 

[sumstorm]

Yes, I am a professional dog trainer. Certified as well, but don't think that really matters. No doubts there...I bring in as much training dogs as many novice vets do treating pets. Well, not quite, I don't make all of that off of direct training...I also instruct at training seminars including specialized training such as SAR.

I believe there are reasonable balances between disease exposure and socialization, and pets do DIE every day due to lack of appropriate early socialization. I have had the great disgust of seeing dozens die every week at a single county shelter. Those are the ones who were not adoptable...and only part of the total population gassed each week. I have also participated in a variety of humane euthanasias of pets for behavioral issues due to lack of socialization at the vet clinic I currently work at.

I agree that there are ways to balance the risk of exposure to a puppy, and that owners, trainers, and vets need to educate individuals about how to balance those risks. I also believe that socialization is critical, and for some forms of training, it is essential that the pup learns to do thier work in the environment at an incredibly early age. Most SAR dogs start training at 8 weeks, in the field, where there are risks. I have yet to see an outbreak of parvo in any of our regional SAR groups, or in any of our puppy classes (of course, we are pretty motivated to have non-porous surfaces, thorough disinfecting routines, and require pups to be on an appropriate vaccination schedule.)

 

[Fairyblastt]

The vet I worked for had this to say to new puppy clients. Don't let your pup play with unknown/unvaxed dogs. Only do puppy classes with like ages (ie 2-4 month olds at start of class only) and where you have to show proof of vax. The biggest advise he gave was to take the puppy down to the beach during dog hours (dusk and dawn basically), carry the dog down to the water, and let it walk around etc in the wet area where the surf is washing up on the sand all the time (obviously not playing with the other dogs hanging around, lol). The idea being that this is the cleanest part of the beach (I don't know how clean this makes it, but I doubt the risk is all that high, the beaches in that area weren't visited by tons of dogs, exactly). His whole approach was the minimal acceptable risk model, I guess where the importance of going out and doing something was not completely forgotten over the whole fussy puppy-in-a-bubble idea.

I was the dork who took my puppy around everywhere with me and called him my 'rat on a string'. He didn't get to play with other dogs until 4 months, but he did learn to climb stairs while they were still bigger than him. Good times.

 

[sumstorm]

LOL!

My shepherd went EVERYWHERE as a pup (well, except places like dog parks and pet stores.) Our favorite place was Newark Airport. Very few dogs, most carrying travel documents, lots of noise and movemen and novel stimuli like glass elevators, trams, etc. Not so long ago we had a search for an alzheimers victim near/on the grounds of a small airport. My shepherd thought it was completly normal.

 

[Fairyblastt]

Lol, I always thought that airports would be a lot cooler if I wasn't always running late while I was in them. One thing that makes me think of is how much easier it must be to find places to take a small breed puppy vs. a large breed puppy... mainly in that I have never had anyone tell me to remove my dog (now or then) from the premises (grant you I don't take my dog inside places where there's food involved, but it's not like we get kicked out of the public library either). It's almost like people stop *seeing* the dog because he's quiet and they're not expecting a 3 lbs puppy in my purse (guilty), pocket (hehe), or napping in my cart at walmart (though you have to watch out for puppy-snatchers on this last one). Bigger puppies are just harder to hide.

 

[justinpaws]

I don't think it is necessary because there are ample ways to socialize a puppy without exposing them to the risk.

You pretty much just reinstated my point: that it ISN'T a trade-off. Fairyblastt and her vet obviously have some good socialization ideas that don't involve parvo exposure. And to answer your question, I've had a Malamute that never attacked smaller dogs, a medium-sized mutt (can't remember what, I was very young), several German Shepherds. They were so well-behaved I could dog-sit other people's smaller pets and they'd be fine together without ever having met before, and did well on their neighborhood walks around other dogs.

And once again, Sumstorm, your argument is completely irrelevant and yet another instance in which you try to pass off your apparently remarkable credentials as supporting evidence as to why you're right and that anyone who disagrees is wrong. Obviously, the fact that you make about as much money as a "novice vet" as a dog trainer means that your advice is pretty much as good as a "novice vet's", right? If you really want us to believe that there has to be some kind of trade-off between socialization and exposure, you're going to have to convince us that waiting to finish vaccinations is so detrimental to social behavior that we have to go to the extremes of gassing a significant portion of dogs whose owners, God forbid, waited to finish their puppy's vaccinations before exposing them haphazardly to other dogs. Maybe if you had published a study on this, versus using your salary, to strengthen your argument, we'd be more inclined to pay it any attention.

And I'm not even the only one who thinks so.

Quote:
Any arrogance I have comes from having walked on a lot of different paths which lets me see that sometimes what seems easily accomplished to one person is a literal impossability for another, and sometimes what one never expects will be the actual future.
[Nyanko]
Is that where it comes from? Your arrogance comes from the fact that you obviously can understand things on a much deeper level than everybody else. Are you sure that isn't just a manifestation of it, not the cause?

Quote:
I have never assumed that anyone else has had the same oppurtunities that I have, and I have always hoped that others would not experience the same hardships. Part of that is not assuming that everyone could afford medical treatment, including abortions. I haven't said that borrowing money for vet school is a waste or shouldn't be done; I have advocated for making wise decisions that balance the fallacies of our world against the economics of debt, and not presuming that extra debt will have negligable affects on ones future.

[Nyanko]
And you've done your very best at making certain that anyone who disagrees with you feels like you're putting down their decisions and devaluing their life experiences with your constant one-upmanship. You already got into vet school (despite your posts upon posts about how you were getting rejected this year and what should you do to improve your application!!?), you can quit with that attitude anytime now.

 

[david594]

I think the saying is "Correlation does not equal causation". And I think it applies to this argument.

 

[projekt]

Hmm, lots of strange advice, my first-year brain thinks.

Of course socialization is important. Socialize the darn puppies.

Parvo persists in the environment. You can play with your dog in empty fields and it can get Parvo. I haven't seen much information that says that the puppies are getting it transmitted directly. It probably happens, but isn't the parvo shedding is pretty much coincident with disease and convalescence?

Having your dog play in the yards of vaccinated dogs is protective, because parvo is a modified live vaccine. As our virology teacher says, you should charge more for the shot, because you're vaccinating all the dogs in the neighborhood. 🙂

 

[projekt]

The main difference is that they are given sub-q fluids not put on IV drip, and they are cared for at home (and brought into the clinic daily for further fluids etc)

They are not allowed inside the clinic, everything is done in the carpark.

It may be primitave, but it works, and because we are in a relatively low income area, our costs are kept affordable to most.

I've seen a similar "protocol" work effectively in another small practice. The only major problem with it is the pup goes home and spreads virulent parvo around the premises, so it could be doing general harm :O but the sick puppy usually recovers if it was not basically dead coming in.

The worst thing that happened in parvo treatment, in my opinion, was the disinfectant companies putting a parvo claim on their quaternary ammonia sprays that the EPA forced them to remove recently. Money-grubbing ....

 

[katryn]

I'm in the school of socialize your dog with known dogs (family and friends pets). On the one hand, treating parvo is moderately expensive. I've seen cases ranging anywhere from $400 to $4000. On the other hand I spent a year working for a board certified behaviorist who's basic fee was $400 and who's medication protocol could cost a bad dog's owner up to $500 dollars a year for several years and still not work. Neither extreme is good. Visiting as many friends, with or with out dogs, and having as many people over to your own place as possible is probably the closest your going to get to a good compromise.

 

[sumstorm]

You pretty much just reinstated my point: that it ISN'T a trade-off.

My original post was regarding vets who promote the 'puppy in the bubble' concept, and how to bring balance to that. As I said in my first post "I am not suggesting pups should be recklessly exposed to unvaccinated dogs...or that the risk isn't real, but that the risk of an unsocialized dog having an unpleasant life, or a shortened life is just as significant." I am uncertain where you got the concept that I was advocating exposure to anything and everything, including unvaccinated dogs...perhaps because you were too busy trying to find quotes by other members from other threads.

And to answer your question, I've had a Malamute that never attacked smaller dogs, a medium-sized mutt (can't remember what, I was very young), several German Shepherds.

Again, I have to wonder if you were too busy trying to drag another topic into this one to realize that I never asked you a question. I asked for view and good compromises in general, to which you answered "Too bad I don't really have an idea as to whether there is some compromise. I've really just heard from vets that if your pup isn't fully vaccinated, don't let him get near other dogs at all." I think you may be referring to Heartsong's questions, but I am not sure, because the list of your pets doesn't really answer anything.

And once again, Sumstorm, your argument is completely irrelevant and yet another instance in which you try to pass off your apparently remarkable credentials as supporting evidence as to why you're right and that anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Actually, you attacked my credentials: "Anyone who claims to be a highly experienced dog trainer but thinks that exposing an unvaccinated puppy is the only way to socialize him is not someone I'd trust with my pets. " so my point was that my skills as an experienced trainer are in enough demand that I make as much as many vets do, not you're interpretation that

your advice is pretty much as good as a "novice vet's", right?

Actually, in my personal anecdotal experience, novice vets (those fairly fresh out of school) do not recommend the absolute bubble approach, but rather the cautious approach that accepts some risk.

My personal opinion is that the balanced approach between exposure and socialization is what is best for the dog, especially since it is nearly impossible to guarantee 0 exposure considering the AVMA says "CPV-2 is highly contagious and is spread by direct dog-to-dog contact and contact with contaminated feces (stool), environments or people. The virus can also contaminate kennel surfaces, food and water bowls, collars and leashes, and the hands and clothing of people who handle infected dogs. It is resistant to heat, cold, humidity, and drying, and can survive in the environment for long periods of time. Even trace amounts of feces containing parvovirus may serve as environmental reservoirs of the virus and infect other dogs that come into the infected envinronment. CPV-2 is readily transmitted from place to place on the hair or feet of dogs or via contaminated cages, shoes, or other objects." They also do not recommend the bubble approach that you said vets advocate: "I've really just heard from vets that if your pup isn't fully vaccinated, don't let him get near other dogs at all. " but rather "Until a puppy has received its complete series of vaccinations, pet owners should use caution when bringing their pet to places where young puppies congregate (e.g. pet shops, parks, puppy classes, obedience classes, doggy daycare, kennels, and grooming establishments). Reputable establishments and training programs reduce exposure risk by requiring vaccinations, health examinations, good hygiene, and isolation of ill puppies and dogs."

If you really want us to believe that there has to be some kind of trade-off between socialization and exposure, you're going to have to convince us that waiting to finish vaccinations is so detrimental to social behavior that we have to go to the extremes of gassing a significant portion of dogs whose owners, God forbid, waited to finish their puppy's vaccinations before exposing them haphazardly to other dogs.

A position statement on early socialization in puppies released in July by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior encourages veterinarians to recommend puppies be socialized before the vaccine series is complete....While veterinarians are appropriately concerned about infectious disease in young puppies, the fact is that behavioral issues—not infectious diseases—are the number one cause of death for dogs under 3 years of age, according to the AVSAB. Veterinarians contribute to these behavioral issues when recommending pets be kept away from possible germs until their vaccine series is complete, the AVSAB stated.

That is from AVMA: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/oct08/081001c.asp

The position statement is on http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy%20socialization.pdf

Why would I bother trying to convince someone who doesn't want to even consider the possibility?

 

[NZer]

I've seen a similar "protocol" work effectively in another small practice. The only major problem with it is the pup goes home and spreads virulent parvo around the premises, so it could be doing general harm :O but the sick puppy usually recovers if it was not basically dead coming in.

Yes, thats true, but given that the pups are going home to where they have already "infected", they aren't spreading it to anywhere new. Most of the clients have no education about the disease (though some are just too familiar with it.... grr..) but once they know they are very vigilant with cleaning and keeping other dogs away etc, use appropriate cleaning agents etc.