Paying for your patients?

[iJackTeeth]

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There is a thread in the pre-dental section that brought something to my attention, which is that some dental students actually pay for their patients procedures in order to graduate on time.

I was wondering how prevalent this is today? are any of you guys going through this?

here is the original thread
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=598479

 

[Midoc]

I had to buy a patient a denture in order to graduate on time.

 

[Guy Smiley]

I had to drop a couple of hundred dollars on a patient to finish my operative requirements.

 

[ElectraOnAzalea]

i guess i better start saving my loan money, LOL.

 

[xhamburgersamx]

i assisted a few times at a specific dental school and 2 times the student doctor had to fork out money or negotiate

 

[Thaxil]

You do what needs to be done. I would turn tricks to pay for patients dental work. Actually, I never pay for patients work, but I fronted the money to get work sent to lab so that I can have things done in a timely manner. I did offer at one time to do one patients RTC (molar), but she was a bum and never return to get work completed.

 

[harjay]

ucla has a small fund of a couple hundred dollars per student that we can use how we please to help pay for patients' procedures.

Obviously used on patients who can help you finish, but don't have the money

 

[HuyetKiem]

I did pay for some operative procedures to express my thankfulness to some of my patients. These patients had showed up on time, on heavy snowy day or very early morning for me to complete my competencies or WREB. 🙂🙂

 

[Turnerjo13]

I heard of it happening around here. It is mainly done as a last minute thing to in order to graduate on time and avoid paying tuition and fees of summer term. a few hundred is way better than paying several thousand in tuition and six more weeks of school.

 

[Darksunshine]

I heard of it happening around here. It is mainly done as a last minute thing to in order to graduate on time and avoid paying tuition and fees of summer term. a few hundred is way better than paying several thousand in tuition and six more weeks of school.

Sadly this has become more and more common.... It is really sad that in order to graduate for procedures we have already done we have to pay our patients bill... what is this teaching dental student's about collections and treatment planning.

 

[Drill Doc]

Sadly, from my experience this is very common. And quite unethical...

But I have seen students pay for pts work to graduate.

Paying for board pts as well as a good assistant is quite commonplace unfortunately, also....

 

[PlaqueAttack]

Paying for board pts as well as a good assistant is quite commonplace unfortunately, also....

Yup, I'll be doing this in a few more weeks, $50 per patient and assistant...that the going rate at my school

 

[dentstd]

So why not find 2 patients? One for backup.

Bribe them to come by offering a procedure after the examination. Or do you have to treat everything in the mouth that day?

 

[QCkid]

I paid arround a grand for patients and assitants for WREBS. I also paid probably a grand or two for crowns and bridges to graduate.

 

[Daurang]

Sadly, from my experience this is very common. And quite unethical...

But I have seen students pay for pts work to graduate.

Paying for board pts as well as a good assistant is quite commonplace unfortunately, also....

I agree.


The dental school is quite unethical to take a couple hundred thousand dollars from the student and not provide them with enough cases to graduate on time. It is unethical for the dental school to not pay the patient for the student to graduate on time. The dental school is quite unethical to allow one student to graduate with 50 crowns performed while only distribute only 5 cases for another who will need to pay out a lot more money to stay behind anyway.

It is unethical for assistant to charge $500 bucks daily just because it's the board exam.

It is unethical for lab to charge $400 buck a crown just because it's the board exam.

 

[doc toothache]

Sadly, from my experience this is very common. And quite unethical...

Why so?

 

[mamelons]

I agree.


The dental school is quite unethical to take a couple hundred thousand dollars from the student and not provide them with enough cases to graduate on time. It is unethical for the dental school to not pay the patient for the student to graduate on time. The dental school is quite unethical to allow one student to graduate with 50 crowns performed while only distribute only 5 cases for another who will need to pay out a lot more money to stay behind anyway.

It is unethical for assistant to charge $500 bucks daily just because it's the board exam.

It is unethical for lab to charge $400 buck a crown just because it's the board exam.

I do think it is unfair regardless, but $500 seems to be what most assistants want for boards... there is one assistant though that is charging $1200! Yikes! And to think some people are paying for that... they better be DARN good.

 

[doc toothache]

It is unethical for assistant to charge $500 bucks daily just because it's the board exam.
It is unethical for lab to charge $400 buck a crown just because it's the board exam.

The same dental assistant that you refer to (and the general public) might consider it "unethical" for a dentist commanding $300-500/hour.

 

[rarm1]

I have looked at this thread, and unfortunately it is true.

There was an article in the J. of Dental Education - Vol 47,#12, 1983 pages 774-776 " Dental Students' Payment for Patient Treatment"

I show it to my starting residents and say this will not be done on regular patients, but our Department will help them with board patients by "offering" the patient a free service (like a crown)... helps get patients for the boards and help relax the residents.

Unfortunately, dental assistants want pay for working on the boards... gone are the days of helping one another.

Back to the article:
4 schools were surveyed. They ranging(rounding off) of paying per school was from 36% to 70% for juniors and seniors. Looking at seniors only the range was higher 39%-74%.
about 3% paid over $400 - and it was 1983, the typical amount was $1-150.

Once you get out, finish all your training (and hopefully take a residency - had to put the plug in) it is a great profession and life

 

[doc toothache]

I have looked at this thread, and unfortunately it is true.
There was an article in the J. of Dental Education - Vol 47,#12, 1983 pages 774-776 " Dental Students' Payment for Patient Treatment"

One might suggest that the article is a bit outdated.

 

[DrReo]

One might suggest that the article is a bit outdated.

One might suggest a 25+ year tradition of paying for patients.

 

[doc toothache]

One might suggest a 25+ year tradition of paying for patients.

One might also suggest that you missed the drift but no great loss.

 

[DrReo]

One might also suggest that you missed the drift but no great loss.

An article that's as old as most of the students on SDN? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to point that out. Nevertheless, thanks for the cynical drift!

 

[rarm1]

I don't agree with the policy of paying for patients....
The article is outdated.... but just wanted to point out that nothing has changed...

 

[lotexigeus]

it's sad. Pretty much just the icing on the cake before you graduate.

but then you get to eat the cake. oh how i dream of that day.

 

[doc toothache]

I don't agree with the policy of paying for patients....
The article is outdated.... but just wanted to point out that nothing has changed...

It is hard to imagine that students are eager to pay for their patients, but from their perspective what choices do they have? Whatever additional expense they incur certainly pales in comparison with the cost of their education. It is simply the cost of doing "business". Since the institution that you are affiliated with is a not-for-profit health care system and it is no secret that it "relies in part on the generosity of individuals, foundations and corporations to fulfill its mission" by paying for their patients, the students are doing their part in supporting the institution. In view of the present economic downturn, it is becoming evident that some dental schools are experiencing some difficulty meeting the demand for patients and are modifying their requirements. As an administrator, what would you suggest as an avenue to sustain the patient pool that is needed and what would you tell students do or say to convince their patients to pay for their own treatment?

 

[rarm1]

The problem is the patients "know the system". They relay it from one to another.
While better screening MAY help, it may reduce the # of pts.
Some schools have contracts to see certain patient groups (insurance HMO medicaid etc) - so patients have to be seen but wont meet all requirements,
or at least wont have money to pay... again the cycle....

to graduate, you need expensive procedures - ie crowns, and many of the patients are low income.... a problem...

many schools(all?) have reduced procedure requirements.

This discussion often occurs at ADEA meetings

 

[Sajitude]

I have heard of incidences at my school where patients had work done however they refuse to pay, or left without checking out. In both cases the student has to pay otherwise the procedure ALREADY PERFORMED do not count towards graduation.

 

[tinman831]

I have heard of incidences at my school where patients had work done however they refuse to pay, or left without checking out. In both cases the student has to pay otherwise the procedure ALREADY PERFORMED do not count towards graduation.

That's why you pay before you render your services. 😉

 

[Pyriots]

The problem is the patients "know the system". They relay it from one to another.
While better screening MAY help, it may reduce the # of pts.
Some schools have contracts to see certain patient groups (insurance HMO medicaid etc) - so patients have to be seen but wont meet all requirements,
or at least wont have money to pay... again the cycle....

to graduate, you need expensive procedures - ie crowns, and many of the patients are low income.... a problem...

many schools(all?) have reduced procedure requirements.

This discussion often occurs at ADEA meetings

That is SO painfully true. In EVERY healthcare scenario I've ever worked in. People really try HARD to work the system. You hear one patient leaning over their hospital bed and pulling the curtain aside to tell another patient that they should go home, get knocked up, and then come back in a couple weeks and " Dr. X" or "Special Fund Y" will take care of their treatment for free and then they can just get an abortion. or how to liquidate their assets temporarily and move it around to hide it so they can qualify for medicaid for a few months. etc etc. Its pretty damn disgusting in my opinion. Call me jaded but I come across plenty of "fake needy" people on a daily basis to the point where I would much rather make personal decisions to pay for my patients procedures out of pocket rather than be a medicaid provider.

Depends on the school. I know my school makes a HEFTY profit off their DDS students and its a shame that WE then might find ourselves in a situation where we have to pay for our patient on top of it.

I mean they "allocated" something like 400 bucks a year of our tuition (without our consent) for us to "print and copy" with at the library (heavens forbid you have your own printer) but then we don't have a fund for "paying for patients" because our ethics professor finds it unethical too.

 

[Daurang]

That is SO painfully true. In EVERY healthcare scenario I've ever worked in. People really try HARD to work the system. You hear one patient leaning over their hospital bed and pulling the curtain aside to tell another patient that they should go home, get knocked up, and then come back in a couple weeks and " Dr. X" or "Special Fund Y" will take care of their treatment for free and then they can just get an abortion. or how to liquidate their assets temporarily and move it around to hide it so they can qualify for medicaid for a few months. etc etc. Its pretty damn disgusting in my opinion. Call me jaded but I come across plenty of "fake needy" people on a daily basis to the point where I would much rather make personal decisions to pay for my patients procedures out of pocket rather than be a medicaid provider.

I would love to know how to hide my assets from Uncle Obama and get medicaid. Honestly, please tell me how. I am ready to give up working hard and ready to take other people's money for nothing.