PBL vs. Traditional Learning

[VeganChick]

I have a couple of questions regarding this subject...

- Does anyone have a "list" of which schools offer which?

- What do folks involved in PBL think of it?

- Does anyone in either type of teaching wish they had gone to a school with the other type, and why?

Thanks!

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[athenaparthenos]

I know Cornell has some PBL, but I think the majority of the curriculum is traditional.

Western University's curriculum is mostly PBL, and I'm leaving for it in a few days. *gulp* It was attractive to me because while I've done well in traditional settings, vet school is training for a career, not schooling just for the sake of schooling... and it seemed logical to me to learn for a *career* in a way that emulates what you'll be doing when you work. When you're on a case you have to look at multiple ways the patient is affected, a variety of symptoms, think about different diagnostics and treatments, etc. Learning how to do all of those things together from the beginning, instead of a class on the heart followed by a class on the liver followed by a class on pharmacology and then having to put them all together at the end, just makes more sense to me.

But, I won't know for sure how I like it until I do it. *gulp* Part of me *is* scared that I'll end up doing horribly under PBL and I'll long for the lectures of old... but I guess I won't know until I get there. It just sounded attractive to me and like a more holistic way of learning, so I decided to bite the bullet and go there instead of Oregon State, with its completely traditional curriculum.

 

[ylrebmik]

What are PBLs... traditional...holistic.....meaning how are all the styles different for learning?

 

[VeganChick]

PBL is problem-based learning, where the "teaching" is done through case studies. This generally involves working in groups to analyze the cases presented and come to a conclusion of a sort. Schools that offer this style believe it to be more holistic as opposed to, as athenaparthenos said,

Learning how to do all of those things together from the beginning, instead of a class on the heart followed by a class on the liver followed by a class on pharmacology and then having to put them all together at the end

The "traditional" teaching style is what most of us are used to - sitting in a classroom while a professor lectures.

 

[ckgilabert]

And i'm not one of those students that has a lot of experience working at a vet hospital. I went with a few of my classmates for a "learn about western" experience and they'll give you a sheet saying "there's a 5 year old cat that is coughing".

then you and your group (which is like 8 people)...and you have a teacher sitting in on your group start brainstorming what it could be. The teacher is just there to listen and give a little bit of direction.

anyway, i sat there thinking maybe it had a cold or the flu or something. then someone there was like "could be heart problems".

so you start a list of what you need to look up...b/c you start from scratch basically. the board was FILLED with stuff we had to look up cuz none of us knew exactly what it could be.

Then a couple of days later they give you another sheet that says "here is more info...the cat lives outdoors, eats this, has had these other symptoms"...so you brainstorm some more. then a couple of days after that they go "heres an xray" with a picture.

The whole process takes a week. and i just felt lost and unstructured, you know?

BUT EVERYONE i know or spoke to....LOVES IT! i met lots of people that were like "i thought i would hate it, but i love it".

 

[twelvetigers]

I would imagine that with PBL, someone who loves to be organized would hate having bits and pieces of information thrown at them. Instead of learning anatomy, system by system, then immunology, parasitology, virology, pharmacology etc.etc. you would learn all of that on a case-by-case basis. It works - we know it does - but it might drive some people nuts.

 

[ylrebmik]

So you read the same things out of class and preparation... but in class instead of lectures there is like problem solving?

 

[dyachei]

We have it at UTK once or twice a semester, and what happens there is that you are given a case. It's up to your group to ask for the right information from the facilitator (like history) and every day everyone leaves with learning objectives. Then we come back the next day and present to everyone in the group about our learning objectives and continue on from there. It is possible in these exercises to "kill" your patient by choosing the wrong treatment but most people research extensively and that isn't a problem. During the course of the week, you have a whiteboard that has areas for facts, plans, mechanisms, learning objectives, and info needed. As information is given out, these areas get filled out. The facilitator isn't supposed to do much other than help if you get absolutely stuck.

Personally, I like ABLEs week, but I am certainly glad that it is only for 1 or 2 weeks every semester. You are stuck in a room with 7 people for a couple of hours every day and if they annoy you the tiniest bit, it gets to be REALLY annoying by the end of the week. I also like that our ABLEs tend to be based off of what we at least have touched on in class so that they supplement our learning instead of replace the learning process.

 

[rexosaurus]

I think CSU has a PBL elective in the second year.

For what it's worth, I had an immunology course in undergrad that did "pseudo" PBL. We were presented with a case study once a week. The information given was the patient's history, symptoms, family histories, etc. It was very iteresting to be able to apply your knowledge from what you learn in lecture to something more tangible. We didn't work in groups, but it was very thought provoking. So, similar, but not exactly the same.

From what it sounds like, PBL reminds me of a House episode...

 

[athenaparthenos]

From what it sounds like, PBL reminds me of a House episode...

My thought exactly 😀

 

[WannaFixFounder]

I was also at the Western mock-PBL case. I loved it and would have gone to Western in a minute. But I have a lot of clinical expereince and learn best by doing, talking it out, etc. That said, my friend at Western works her tail off. It's pretty scary at first.

That said, I really like knowing exactly what is expected of you. I never thought I'd like structured classes so much.

 

[Angelo84]

We have PBL once a week for two hours in first and second year. It generally tracks well with what we are learning in lecture and does a good job of integrating material. I like having the mix of lecture and PBL but would not be happy if I had to learn all of the material through PBL.

 

[dyachei]

From what it sounds like, PBL reminds me of a House episode...

It reminded a few of us of an episode of House after our first week of ABLEs (our PBL).

 

[Truth74]

I've had a few PBL based courses in undergrad, and it is my impression that Illinois is leaning toward incorporating more PBL in the CVM.

From what experience I had. The instructor expected us to do reading and prep before class. We were divided into groups of 4. We would then be given the scenario. We then would come up with ideas. If each person had a different theory, we would do research on the topic (or use the databank made available for the course) and come back the next class with information to teach everyone else. It was more learning through teaching other people. This was definitely dependent on each person pulling their own weight. By the time the second part of the case was presented (more information), each group would usually have studied the angles. By the end of the case, we'd have the answer that we'd been guided to get.

I think I learned more about the alternatives, because of the way that we studied them. So, we were learning more than I thought we were. When the tests came around, I felt more confident about them. I integrated more information from those classes.

PBL👍 memorization without an explanation or connection to the information ...meh. I can do the memorization, but I don't think it would stick as well.

I really think this is a learning styles issue. If you've never been in a PBL environment, and the school you want is all PBL all the time, you need to take that into consideration.

 

[ylrebmik]

So is what a hollistic approach is? sorry confused 😕

 

[athenaparthenos]

ylrebmik -- I didn't mean holistic as in "it's a Holistic Approach (TM)" -- was just using holistic as a regular old adjective. I was using it in the sense that I find PBL to integrate one's learning better than a traditional method -- it gives you the "whole" instead of just the parts.

 

[ylrebmik]

oooohh okay. So a school that has PBL's only does it once in a while too right?

 

[athenaparthenos]

Only some schools that do PBL just do it occasionally. Western's curriculum is almost entirely PBL.

 

[ckgilabert]

I would imagine that with PBL, someone who loves to be organized would hate having bits and pieces of information thrown at them. Instead of learning anatomy, system by system, then immunology, parasitology, virology, pharmacology etc.etc. you would learn all of that on a case-by-case basis. It works - we know it does - but it might drive some people nuts.

That's EXACTLY what i would like too. Learn something...and THEN apply it to a case. but with western and their PBL's...its not like that at all.

you're thrown into a situation where they dont' tell you what books to buy, they dont tell you whats on exams, and if you have a question and ask a professor (and they joke about this) they tell you to "look it up".

with my grades i shouldn't be so picky....but western is definitely not on my list of schools that i'm applying to...and i live 20 minutes away from them.


but what someone said on here is exactly what they're doing...they're having you learn the whole system. so if you have a question about the heart, you're gonna read up on the heart, how it affects other parts of the body, what affects the heart, etc.


OH, and then when you go to do your rotations (is that what its called), you go to different places (zoos, small animal med, large animal med, etc) and then you meet with your group once a week and tell them all the case studies that you had. then they tell you what they learned.....and from those case studies---that's what's on the exams. but you only heard cases from like 8 different people and there's over 80 in your class...so what's on the test???? (which is what i asked the professor) and he was like "we don't make it impossible, once you take the exam, you'll understand"

 

[VeganChick]

I think that I would be afraid of "missing" learning about something if I were in PBL. For example, if I had cases involving cardiology, neurology, and ophthamalogy, would I not learn anything about, say, dentistry?

 

[dyachei]

I think that I would be afraid of "missing" learning about something if I were in PBL. For example, if I had cases involving cardiology, neurology, and ophthamalogy, would I not learn anything about, say, dentistry?

At least at UTK, cases concern multiple areas. Some areas are red herrings, so you still have to cover them in detail, even though they may or may not be whats causing the main problem. Your "clients" also ask questions about different areas. So its really not strictly "a cardiology case" or "a neurology case".

I assume that the cases at Western are probably chosen to give you a complete education.

 

[ylrebmik]

If the schools had to be divided into what is PBL style and what isn't... what schools would be on what side of the list?

 

[chris03333]

At least at UTK, cases concern multiple areas. Some areas are red herrings, so you still have to cover them in detail, even though they may or may not be whats causing the main problem. Your "clients" also ask questions about different areas. So its really not strictly "a cardiology case" or "a neurology case".

I assume that the cases at Western are probably chosen to give you a complete education.

Yes they are (I am a member of the Charter class). IF you concentrated on the one area "cardiology" vs some other ology....YOU WILL FAIL. You have to learn every possibility in the case.

Also I would like to point out that it is impossible for someone who has only done partial PBL to speak about doing it as a full program. You can not understand it as a full program unless you are doing it. I really can not explain it well even as a grad. I can say that I learned a TON and it was very very difficult at times to be so darn self motivated (especially with the confusing subjects, neuro for me) but I passed my boards on the first time (NAVLE and CA State), had nothing but great feedback from the practitioners I did rotations with (many of them have students from other schools also), and think I am not so bad at this vet thing now as a resident😉

On that note, I can not say if I would have liked a traditional program better as I have never been in a "traditional" program for vet school. I am sure they have their own difficulties also.👍

 

[dyachei]

Yes they are (I am a member of the Charter class). IF you concentrated on the one area "cardiology" vs some other ology....YOU WILL FAIL. You have to learn every possibility in the case.

Also I would like to point out that it is impossible for someone who has only done partial PBL to speak about doing it as a full program. You can not understand it as a full program unless you are doing it. I really can not explain it well even as a grad. I can say that I learned a TON and it was very very difficult at times to be so darn self motivated (especially with the confusing subjects, neuro for me) but I passed my boards on the first time (NAVLE and CA State), had nothing but great feedback from the practitioners I did rotations with (many of them have students from other schools also), and think I am not so bad at this vet thing now as a resident😉

On that note, I can not say if I would have liked a traditional program better as I have never been in a "traditional" program for vet school. I am sure they have their own difficulties also.👍

I didn't mean to imply that I understand an all PBL system...just that I didn't think they would neglect parts of your education.

Personally, I don't think I would like it as much, but like you said, impossible to know until you've tried both.

 

[chris03333]

I didn't mean to imply that I understand an all PBL system...just that I didn't think they would neglect parts of your education.

Personally, I don't think I would like it as much, but like you said, impossible to know until you've tried both.

Oh I only was quoting you to answer your question about how the cases are chosen, not to imply that you implyed that you understand an all PBL program (confusing sentence huh?). That part was just me pointing this out, because there have been TONS of PBL vs Traditional threads in the vet forum and there is always speculation but no true way to compare them (probably because I am the only Western grad who regularly posts and I avoid trying to compare the two, because, like I said before, I do not know what a "traditional" program is like.)

 

[VeganChick]

Chris, could you point me in the direction of some of those threads? The only one I could find was in the pre-allo forum (which actually was quite informative). Thanks!

 

[nutsy]

bleh i just dont like PBL
i feel like we're supposed to be getting something but can't quite apply it yet cos we just had the lectures on that topic about 1 day ago?? that happened to me in vet school in UK..but i left and transferred to australia where most of the 1st year stuff is just lectures lectures and more lectures...i seem to learn better on my own tho 😉

 

[bern]

My school is mostly traditional but has us do about 2 weeks of PBL (aka punishment-based learning) every semester. Personally, I LOATHE PBL.

But I've never liked working in a group.