Pediatrics rankings? UCSF & WashU

[msz3544]

Hi all,

Having already gone through your med school journey, I thought you might have some good experience I could tap into.

I am currently deciding on a med school and it is between WashU (full-tuition scholarship) and UCSF. UCSF has always been my #1 choice, but of course there is the money concern. My ultimate goal is to be a pediatric oncologist, although I know this could change based on what I experience in med schools.

(1) Would I be crazy to choose UCSF over WashU? (I know lowering your debt is huge, but UCSF is not among the most expensive med schools ...)

(2) Is there any sort of ranking system that decides what is a good residency program? I know rankings aren't everything, but I'm looking for a place to start.

(3) Right now, I'm thinking that if I do go to WashU, I'd like to do residency in SF. Would I have a better shot of getting a peds residency in SF if I choose UCSF over WashU?

Thanks for your help and insight!

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[ChildNeuro]

Hi all,

Having already gone through your med school journey, I thought you might have some good experience I could tap into.

I am currently deciding on a med school and it is between WashU (full-tuition scholarship) and UCSF. UCSF has always been my #1 choice, but of course there is the money concern. My ultimate goal is to be a pediatric oncologist, although I know this could change based on what I experience in med schools.

(1) Would I be crazy to choose UCSF over WashU? (I know lowering your debt is huge, but UCSF is not among the most expensive med schools ...)

(2) Is there any sort of ranking system that decides what is a good residency program? I know rankings aren't everything, but I'm looking for a place to start.

(3) Right now, I'm thinking that if I do go to WashU, I'd like to do residency in SF. Would I have a better shot of getting a peds residency in SF if I choose UCSF over WashU?

Thanks for your help and insight!

I wouldn't base the choice on strictly the tuition, but I would choose which school you would be happiest at. Obviously, for someone who has family in CA, then going to a medical school would be worth the tuition as they would regularly get to see their family. It sounds to me that you enjoy the state of CA, i.e. weather, things to do. If that is what you want then you can have it now by going to USCF. You will be spending a large amount of time studying and doing clinical rotations, but you do get holidays and vacations and some time in between. I think that you will be most successful in getting a pediatric CA residency if you excell in medical school wherever you go, you just have to figure out at which school you will excel at.

They both sound like excellent schools, I would guess that if you excel at UCSF, and it would be easier for you to network if you are physically there, and then you would have a much better shot at a UCSF pediatric residency as if you do a good job then it will help that they "know you" when it comes time to apply for residency there. I would say go to UCSF, because you will get first hand knowledge/the word on the street about applying to pediatrics programs like at UCSF just by being there, by being in Washington U. I think you would be distracted thinking about how you could be in CA networking and talking to residents/attendings at various pediatrics residency programs. Go where your heart is, and everything else will fall into place. Good Luck!

 

[msz3544]

Thank you, your advice sounds solid. The one thing you didn't really mention a lot though is $$$ ... is it really not that big of a factor??

 

[TeleoDeum]

Coming out of medical schhol with less or even no debt is HUGE!!! Both WashU and UCSF are great schools for pediatrics and other specialties as well. If you apply yourself, you should get a residency in any field you like. Getting a Peds HemeOnc fellowship is mildly competative, but it seemss to be more about who you know and who writes your letters of recommendation for fellowship rather than where you went to medical school or even residency.
I know that in the world of Peds HemeOnc, WashU is thought of as one of the best in the country. You could likely do some research as a med student, which would allow you to see if Peds HemeOnc is for you, and potentially further your residency and fellowship applications.
Something else to consider is that lots of academic places encourage people to go to a different setting to do residency or fellowship, so as not to appear "inbred".
Finally, as you likely know, Peds HemeOnc is compensated relatively poorly, by comparison to other medical specialities. If you can have as little debt as possible coming out of fellowship, you will have more choice in where you can pracitice, ie not having to take a position because the money is better. Rather you can go where you want, because you want to work there, not because you are struggling to pay off med school loans.
Just my thoughts...

Peace,
Greg

 

[ChildNeuro]

Thank you, your advice sounds solid. The one thing you didn't really mention a lot though is $$$ ... is it really not that big of a factor??

For you it might well come down to free schooling versus tuition, because, University of Washington is ranked very highly as UCSF as both are probably in the top 5 medical school in the US. Will having no debt, versus having to pay off loans make you that much happier as a pediatric resident and beyond? What about when you are in your 40s or 50s and perhaps have the debt paid off and you look fondly back on your time at UCSF? All of the UCSF med students who will have debt are still tickled pink to be going to UCSF. Although CA pediatric residencies are somewhat "inbred", going to WashingtonU will look excellent during residency application time. In the long-run I would suggest going to whichever school you believe you will be happiest at. WashingtonU students do rate the surrounding area of their school very well on a pole I found on SDN as do students at UCSF. On a personal note, I knew someone who went to WashingtonU, *hated it*, and moved out to California for residency. I personally have the unverified belief that schools treat students more humanely the more west you go . . . It is very nice though that WashingtonU offered you a free scholarship to cover tuition, this shows that they care about helping medical students with the high debt. I would say that the high debt will only very much negatively effect you if you want to do a large amount of volunteer work in international setting or devote a large amount of time to helping underserved patients. Alot of medical students, myself included, feel the pressure of high tuition, and it does irk alot when a school is collecting a very large tuition but treats its students somewhat poorly. If financial issues are a big concern, then yes, going to WashingtonU would relieve alot of that stress which in the end may help to focus on just the stress of studying, rotations, boards, etc . . . Personally, I would choose WashingtonU because of the excellent research reputation and generally excellent reputation overall, if I knew how students are treated by faculty at the school, and a free tuition is a nice way to say, "You're welcomed here and we value your contributions and potential", as opposed to some private schools were tuition and expenses per year may reach $57,000 a year and the attitude is, "You should be more grateful that we let you walk around here."

 

[oldbearprofessor]

(1) Would I be crazy to choose UCSF over WashU? (I know lowering your debt is huge, but UCSF is not among the most expensive med schools ...)

(2) Is there any sort of ranking system that decides what is a good residency program? I know rankings aren't everything, but I'm looking for a place to start.

(3) Right now, I'm thinking that if I do go to WashU, I'd like to do residency in SF. Would I have a better shot of getting a peds residency in SF if I choose UCSF over WashU?

Thanks for your help and insight!

1. No. If the cost difference was huge you might be making a difficult choice, but only you can decide this. Certainly if the cost difference is relatively small (<50,000 over the 4 years for example), there is no reason not to go where you'd be happiest.

2. Nope, there are folks who rank pediatric programs and children's hospitals (think Child magazine), but these aren't likely to help you in this decision. Certainly one can look at the usual ratings places.

3. Programs have a tendency to take their own, but this is partly because they "know" you, partly because personal reasons tend to keep people in the same place. There is absolutely no reason a graduate of Wash U would find it difficult to be competitive anywhere.

Advice - go where you'll be happiest. These are great choices. If the cost difference is huge, well, that's the never-ending SDN conundrum and only you can decide how much is too much debt. If it's relatively small, then tell Wash U "no" so some other person who really want to go there can do so and find out ASAP.

 

[ChildNeuro]

Here is what I got from the UCSF website:

>>
Tuition And Costs

For many students who decide to apply to medical school, the next natural question is:


We know that meeting the costs of medical school is a major investment for most people. Yet with careful planning, a UCSF medical school education is definitely affordable. Most students rely on a combination of personal or family contributions, loans, and scholarships to pay for medical school. In 2004-2005, 89 percent of UCSF medical students received financial aid.

Average Debt
As reported in U.S. News and World Report's survey of medical schools for 2006, on average, medical school graduates who rely on loans begin their residencies with a debt of $100,000. By contrast, UCSF medical students have an average debt of just $66,958.

>>

I think that debt management at UCSF is having financial aid and perhaps a scholarship. I have a family member who was heavily recruited for a professional school (not medicine though) got free tuition at one place, but no scholarship at the place they really wanted to accept the acceptance, so, they called the school and said, "If you give me a scholarship or reduce tuition then I will come, but otherwise school x offered me free tuition which is hard to pass up. . . " And you know what? It worked, the other school did NOT want to pass on an excellent candidate! I have no idea if this works with med school, or even if it is ethical, but I would guess that it is.