Pedigree and applications

[p-indecise]

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Hi-
I am student from a regular state school with all the necessary #'s (USMLE 99, top of class ranking, Junior AOA), decent research in oncology (not rad onc specifically)...

I am concerned about the issue of pedigree in this whole process given that I hope to leave my home institution for somewhere new (hopefully in a bigger city). Of course I am hoping to match at an institution where I can receive the best possible training, but from the tone of this site, it seems that spots in top training programs are unattainable for a student who has not attended a top medical school. This fact is reflected in the Who's who list...

This list however, is not comprehensive and seems to preferentially leave off the middle/lower tier programs (e.g. most programs in NYC that aren't Sloan Kettering). Do the same rules apply for even less well-known programs?

After all this hard work, I am frustrated the school name may inhibit my matching. I don't need to go to MSKCC/MDACC/Harvard, etc...but I don't want to go unmatched as a result of a factor at this point I can do nothing about. Will other factors be enough to get that key # of interviews (at decent places)?

Thanks in advance--your replies will be helpful as I make backup plans and my list of where to apply.

 

[Butch]

I was a recent applicant and I have not been directly involved in the admission process from the program side.

Radiation oncology is now one of the most competitive residency fields. With so many applicants, the numbers and school prestige are important. Research is important. A recent publication pointed out that many applicants even lied about their publications/research achievements.

Despite the numbers game, radiation oncology is a small field and connections matter. They are VERY important. Applicants from a medical school (even prestigious ones) without top-notch radiation oncology departments are even at a comparative disadvantage.

You definitely need to rotate at a good radiation oncology department and establish connections. Connections often matter more than qualifications at certain programs.

Also, do not underestimate the "nice guy" or "nice gal" effect. Most residency programs have few spots and radiation oncology training is 1-to-1 with an attending. Most programs will not consider a given candidate if there is any indication that they are problematic.

Good luck. You are interested in the best field in medicine.

Hi-
I am student from a regular state school with all the necessary #'s (USMLE 99, top of class ranking, Junior AOA), decent research in oncology (not rad onc specifically)...

I am concerned about the issue of pedigree in this whole process given that I hope to leave my home institution for somewhere new (hopefully in a bigger city). Of course I am hoping to match at an institution where I can receive the best possible training, but from the tone of this site, it seems that spots in top training programs are unattainable for a student who has not attended a top medical school. This fact is reflected in the Who's who list...

This list however, is not comprehensive and seems to preferentially leave off the middle/lower tier programs (e.g. most programs in NYC that aren't Sloan Kettering). Do the same rules apply for even less well-known programs?

After all this hard work, I am frustrated the school name may inhibit my matching. I don't need to go to MSKCC/MDACC/Harvard, etc...but I don't want to go unmatched as a result of a factor at this point I can do nothing about. Will other factors be enough to get that key # of interviews (at decent places)?

Thanks in advance--your replies will be helpful as I make backup plans and my list of where to apply.

 

[Gfunk6]

You definitely need to rotate at a good radiation oncology department and establish connections. Connections often matter more than qualifications at certain programs.

Also, do not underestimate the "nice guy" or "nice gal" effect. Most residency programs have few spots and radiation oncology training is 1-to-1 with an attending. Most programs will not consider a given candidate if there is any indication that they are problematic.

This is critically important in my opinion too. IM/Peds have tons of residents each year so it's not the end of the world if one turns out the be a "bad apple." However with only 1-2 residents/year at most RadOnc programs PDs tend to be conservative. If you know the faculty/residents at a given institution and get along well with them, this can really boost your application.

Re: Where to apply -- apply everywhere. Seriously. You already plunked down $100,000s of dollars for a medical education, why be frugal at this point? The bottom line is you NEVER know where you will get interviews so you had best increase your odds.

Applying to 10-15 RadOnc programs and 10 IM (or whatever your backup speciality is) is a recipe for failure in > 90% of cases.

 

[CNphair]

It sounds like you are in a good position to match in Rad Onc. It is very true that prestige now matters more than ever in this field. However, this mainly applies to the top tier programs (Harvard, Stanford, Penn, etc). You may indeed be able to get interviews at these places, but it will be hard to match there from an average medical school. However, it is not impossible...

For upper-middle tier programs, you are in a good position. Several solid programs in big cities took non-pedigree applicants. You will get very good training and will not have a problem when it comes to jobs. I really respected all the programs I interviewed with, and I could have been happy at almost all of them...location became a critical factor for me in the ranking process.

Bottom line: Stay on track and strengthen the research angle of your application as much as possible. If you perform well on away rotations and get good letters, the outlook is good. The field is way too competitive to gaurantee anyone of a match, but please don't let the pedigree issue stop you from trying.

 

[stephew]

pedigree helps, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you sit) its true. But its not the be and end all. go for it.

 

[p-indecise]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that pedigree is of paramount importance in the process...but that it is only one element amongst several others (research, scores, etc.) that also matter quite a bit.

After being at other institutions for away rotations, I have noticed that "top schools" with "top radiation departments" clearly impact on the popularity of the field amongst its student body. Harvard, Stanford, etc. have more applicants each year than a whole handful of smaller, less well known places combined.
This clearly makes the list appear full of students from these big name places because a good number of their students match each year. I wonder what % of these applicants successfully matches from these top schools...
At a smaller schools like mine for instance, the match rate has been 100% in the past 4-5 years based on 1-2 applicants per year, with several going to top places.

I am curious to know what people think about the importance of pedigree from the admissions perspective as opposed to perceived importance based on the match list.

Also, if you believe there is a true admissions committee bias in favor of students from big name schools, do you think that strong letters from top people would help combat a degree from a smaller school??

THANKS!

 

[Gfunk6]

I am curious to know what people think about the importance of pedigree from the admissions perspective as opposed to perceived importance based on the match list.

This is a good point. No doubt that there are a large number of applicants coming from top schools. Last year, when I applied, there were a ton of applicants from Harvard and Yale. This seriously skews the match list.

From the admissions perspective, things become more complicated. I've talked to one PD from a "top" program who said that, all things being equal, preference is given to grads of "top" med schools. Exactly how much depends on the program, the PD, and the applicant pool in a given year.

Also, if you believe there is a true admissions committee bias in favor of students from big name schools, do you think that strong letters from top people would help combat a degree from a smaller school??

Yes, these always help. If you don't have a strong home RadOnc program (e.g. one w/ a residency) it is virutally mandatory to rotate elsewhere and get strong letters. Working w/ faculty who have big reps in the field is always a plus. Make sure you talk to the residents during your externships and ask them which faculty members give good LORs. Sometimes, great faculty have rep for writing short, unrevealing, and not terribly useful LORs. The best LORs are longer and give detailed info about you that is more than simply a litany of your CV.

 

[Mulletfluf]

Personally I cannot attest for the difficulty of the match. However, I will say keep your head up. While some prestigous schools tend to fair well in the match, I do see several matches from mid-tier schools (according to the whos who thread). You've worked hard and covered your bases. Take some suggestions and address any weak areas. I'm sure you'll do just fine.