peds ct surgery, how long?

[HiddenTruth]

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what is the exact path to become one?
gen surg (5) + ct (2-3) + peds ct (1-2) ??
how much are these guys bankin'? more or less than adults ct?
seems like it would be so much more rewarding--anyone has any experiences with this specialty?

 

[Idiopathic]

Read "Walk On Water" about Roger Mee...who wouldnt want to do it.

 

[HiddenTruth]

Read "Walk On Water" about Roger Mee...who wouldnt want to do it.

dang idio--how are you gonna leave me hangin' like that? Plus, I think these books are awesome (Complications by Atul Gawande, e.g); however, I think our limited med student mind can become really biased and limited after reading these--unles ofcourse, you read enough of them to get a good perspective, no?

But fill me in about the book--in respect to what my thoughts were in the OP--thanks man.

 

[fourthyearmed]

Wouldn't this be better posted in the surgery section? Most of us know very little about peds surgery.

 

[tkrohn]

I've worked with peds CT surgeons for several years and have had a lot of great experiences with them. However, the patient dynamic and personal lifestyle of a peds CT surgeon versus a general or cards peds is completely different. The thing with peds CT is that the training is long and rigorous, and even if you complete the training, you have to be "the best" in CT surgery to be able to make a career of peds CT. However, should you be successful you have very brief, non-continuous patient interaction and you work LONG hours, because often you are only one of a few peds CT surgeons in any given city. The training is 5 years general surgery and 3 years CT surgery fellowship; most CT fellowships are now 3-4 years and include both adult and pediatric training. However, most of those programs expect 2 years of research during your general surgery years. So... all in all its about 10 years of training after med school. Monetarily you can expect to average $400,000 - $500,000 per year. I hope that helps a little, but I'd definitely recommend "Walk on Water" as well... great book!

 

[rastelli]

I will have to disagree with the honorable gentleman makeing the assertion about avg. salaries. In general, solid adult CT surgeons make around $400,000 a year (depending upon which part of the country you live in). The days of high salary for surgeons is long-gone.

Regarding pedi CT surg (congenital heart surg), I'm a resident at a very solid program with a very solid CHD/CT surg program....I've seen these guys work and work and work and work....With Pedi CT surg., things are a bit different from on the adult side. Yes you go through the residency and of course the fellowship, but here's the difference. With adults, you're ready to practice (+/- a research year or two). With peds, even after you've completed your training, you continue to "apprentice" under an established surgeon for quite a while. Congenital lesions are far more complex than merely bypassing bad coronary arteries. There is far more anatomic variation...not to mention your patients are very, very small.

Good luck to you if you choose this field...we need more good surgeons....make sure it's for you cause it's a LONG road....

I've worked with peds CT surgeons for several years and have had a lot of great experiences with them. However, the patient dynamic and personal lifestyle of a peds CT surgeon versus a general or cards peds is completely different. The thing with peds CT is that the training is long and rigorous, and even if you complete the training, you have to be "the best" in CT surgery to be able to make a career of peds CT. However, should you be successful you have very brief, non-continuous patient interaction and you work LONG hours, because often you are only one of a few peds CT surgeons in any given city. The training is 5 years general surgery and 3 years CT surgery fellowship; most CT fellowships are now 3-4 years and include both adult and pediatric training. However, most of those programs expect 2 years of research during your general surgery years. So... all in all its about 10 years of training after med school. Monetarily you can expect to average $400,000 - $500,000 per year. I hope that helps a little, but I'd definitely recommend "Walk on Water" as well... great book!

 

[HiddenTruth]

wow that's very interesting--thanks to all the posts. I definately did not know about the post POST graduate training. So, how does the whole process work? I mean after all the fellow and training, how long do you continue to work under a skilled surgeon before u are on your own? Also, do u know what you start at in terms of salary after the training but while still wokring under a skilled pedi cts?

I thought these guys were a lot more common than you guys make them sound. I guess the training is long and very few people want to get into it. When you mentioned that the personal lifestyle dynamics are much difft, what exactly do you mean--can u elaborate on that? Is the practice much more rigorous. Does the scope of the practice involve a lot more emergent care--(night calls, late hours, etc.)?

above all, can one of you comment on the extreme rewarding experience behind this speicalty? To me, it seems as if 20-30 yrs from now, everything is a job and we all become jaded--so there has to be something above and beyond taht drives you everyday, and it seems as if giving a new life LITERALLY to a child is more rewarding than many things, especially the gratification from parents--i don't know. I'm not too well read in this specialty but would love to hear some thoughts. Thanks

 

[SoonerBJJ]

rastelli has caught the correct. We have an internationally known pediatric CT surgeon at our Children's Hospital and until very recently he worked alone. Adult CT surgeons provided cross cover when he was out of town, but they didn't perform surgery. We have recently hired another ped CT surgeon who has completed his fellowship, but he is now acting as something resembling an apprentice. Pediatric CT surgery is unlike anything else. It is an art that cannot be taught, it must be practiced. It really takes a dedication to your work and a sacrifice of everything else to live the lifestyle. I would also guess that the money is less than that of an adult CT surgeon.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

rastelli has caught the correct. We have an internationally known pediatric CT surgeon at our Children's Hospital and until very recently he worked alone. Adult CT surgeons provided cross cover when he was out of town, but they didn't perform surgery. We have recently hired another ped CT surgeon who has completed his fellowship, but he is now acting as something resembling an apprentice. Pediatric CT surgery is unlike anything else. It is an art that cannot be taught, it must be practiced. It really takes a dedication to your work and a sacrifice of everything else to live the lifestyle. I would also guess that the money is less than that of an adult CT surgeon.

For better or worse, congenital heart surgeries, such as Norwood's and arterial switches take practice and experience for the whole team working together. Speed is essential to a good outcome as well as surgical skill. As such, even post-fellowship, as new procedures and techniques are introduced, it takes some practice for the whole team to get it down to provide the best outcome. It is not a good idea to be any surgeon's first "by themself" Norwood!

OBP

 

[tkrohn]

I completely agree with what has been said. As for the "apprenticeship," it could take another 5 years of working with a more experienced surgeon before you are hired on as an assistant professor of peds CT surgery. That's the other thing, there are very few peds CT surgeons in private practice; the majority of them work out of large, university-associated medical centers in large cities. The prevelence of congenital heart defects requiring surgery just aren't all that high. That means that the demand is very low, and parents are only going to take their kid to "the best." Therefore, when the demand is low and the stakes (long training and difficult lifestyle) are high you usually end up with only 3 or 4 surgeons in any given city that can perform the complicated procedures; and therefore you are working longer hours, with more call and few vacation days. Committing yourself to peds CT surgery will definitely be lucrative and rewarding, however, it is a committment that will demand more time than any other specialty.

As for the starting salary, I have no idea. However, I must stand by my argument from earlier that peds CT surgeons in the middle of their career are making at least $400,000 per year. Peds CT surgeons, because they are few and far between, individually carry high patient volumes and many of their procedures are highly reimbursable. Furthermore, many of them end up in chairman positions at prestigious medical centers. I worked for Davis Drinkwater, CT chairman and peds CT surgeon at Vanderbilt, as well as Vaughn Starnes, CT chairman and peds CT surgeon at CHLA, and both of them are on salary with the university for more than $1 million per year.

 

[HiddenTruth]

I worked for Davis Drinkwater, CT chairman and peds CT surgeon at Vanderbilt, as well as Vaughn Starnes, CT chairman and peds CT surgeon at CHLA, and both of them are on salary with the university for more than $1 million per year.

nice way to sum it all--appreciate the comments. Just for the record, how do you know the specific salaries of these studs? 😀

 

[tkrohn]

I was pretty surprised to learn of such high salaries, but I learned from public budget disclosures in the university newspaper. I know that Vanderbilt discloses their budget to the university community annually, and salaries are included. Dr. Drinkwater's salary is actually just over 1.2 million per year, which makes him the highest salaried member of the university even higher than the Chancellor himself.