Penn vs Harvard

[SHe...]

Hi everyone! I would love to have some insight to help me choose between these two schools! I am not particularly interested in specializing right now, especially since I am international and I am not sure if residencies give F1 visas for international students (if anyone know about this, I would love to learn more!) Thank you!

Penn

Pros​

1. Better clinical education, starting in sim lab early on in D1 (matters fair amount to me, especially if I do GP)​

2. More diverse clinics, thus more diverse patients (like their disability program which I am really interested in)​

3. More technology, I would love to learn more about the new techs in school (rather than paying a lot for CE courses later on)​

4. More international students from whom I can learn from their experiences​

​

Cons​

1. Students seem more stressed out​

2. Philly is not exactly known for being safe​

3. Large class size​

Harvard

Pros​

1. Harvard being Harvard -- my parents would really love for me to be there (which matters a fair amount, as I am lucky enough to have them fund my dental education)​

2. Smaller class size, which is what I am used to for high school and college​

3. P/F​

4. I know Boston as a city much better than Philly, Boston feels like safer place than Philly​

5. Cheaper​

6. Med classes would help me understand dental health as part of systematic health, which is one of my interest​

​

Cons​

1. Not great reputation for clinical education (like not starting anything dental related until basically D2, no sim lab, and such)​

2. PBL -- I feel like I learn better from lectures​

3. Not as many international students -- I may want to practice in Canada in the future so I am interested in taking both the Canadian board and US board if I can, but Harvard really don't have many Canadians, which will make it harder for me to prep/take the Canadian board?​

4. Feels almost too medically focused -- I am afraid the school gives more focus / resources to their med students than dental students​

I really would appreciate any insight! Especially regarding how different the clinical experience is between the two schools. I am interested in community health so would likely work in a FQHC office after I graduate if I don't specialize. If the clinical experiences differ a lot, how long would I have to work for to set that off?

Thank you so much!

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[macsak]

did you have other acceptances?

Hi everyone! I would love to have some insight to help me choose between these two schools! I am not particularly interested in specializing right now, especially since I am international and I am not sure if residencies give F1 visas for international students (if anyone know about this, I would love to learn more!) Thank you!

Penn

Pros​

1. Better clinical education, starting in sim lab early on in D1 (matters fair amount to me, especially if I do GP)​

2. More diverse clinics, thus more diverse patients (like their disability program which I am really interested in)​

3. More technology, I would love to learn more about the new techs in school (rather than paying a lot for CE courses later on)​

4. More international students from whom I can learn from their experiences​

​

Cons​

1. Students seem more stressed out​

2. Philly is not exactly known for being safe​

3. Large class size​

Harvard

Pros​

1. Harvard being Harvard -- my parents would really love for me to be there (which matters a fair amount, as I am lucky enough to have them fund my dental education)​

2. Smaller class size, which is what I am used to for high school and college​

3. P/F​

4. I know Boston as a city much better than Philly, Boston feels like safer place than Philly​

5. Cheaper​

6. Med classes would help me understand dental health as part of systematic health, which is one of my interest​

​

Cons​

1. Not great reputation for clinical education (like not starting anything dental related until basically D2, no sim lab, and such)​

2. PBL -- I feel like I learn better from lectures​

3. Not as many international students -- I may want to practice in Canada in the future so I am interested in taking both the Canadian board and US board if I can, but Harvard really don't have many Canadians, which will make it harder for me to prep/take the Canadian board?​

4. Feels almost too medically focused -- I am afraid the school gives more focus / resources to their med students than dental students​

I really would appreciate any insight! Especially regarding how different the clinical experience is between the two schools. I am interested in community health so would likely work in a FQHC office after I graduate if I don't specialize. If the clinical experiences differ a lot, how long would I have to work for to set that off?

Thank you so much!

 

[SHe...]

I did. But considering the possibility of me working back at my home country (I'm not Canadian) after graduation, the "prestige" of the school does matter. I know it doesn't play a role when it comes to working as a dentist in the States, but unfortunately it matters a lot back home.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I am interested in community health so would likely work in a FQHC office after I graduate if I don't specialize.

But considering the possibility of me working back at my home country (I'm not Canadian) after graduation, the "prestige" of the school does matter. I know it doesn't play a role when it comes to working as a dentist in the States, but unfortunately it matters a lot back home.

On the first question on community health, there's going to be little difference. Both have strong connections with community resources, so ultimately working in a FQHC isn't going to be a problem. If you are looking for a path back to practice in your home country, seek any alumni from those schools who made it back to where you are from and get their opinions. Ask their alumni offices or do your own search via LinkedIn.

 

[DentalStudent5858]

Hello, I was in a very similar boat a few years ago, so maybe I can help. Spoiler: I chose Harvard and for me it was the best decision I could have made. Penn is also a wonderful school and could be the better choice for you, this is a personal decision that is unique to each applicant 🙂

One thing I want to emphasize now that I have talked to many dental students at other schools, including Penn, is that the clinical education at Harvard is actually very good. Is it as good as schools like Utah or VCU? No. But it’s 10x better than what I thought it would be as a predent. Years ago, Hsdm students spent 2years at the med school, and many students either switched from dental to med, or went into oral surgery, so a lot of people still have this idea that Harvard does not focus on general dentistry. Plus, we’re a very small school and barely anybody is on sdn, so there aren’t a lot of firsthand accounts of the hsdm experience. So I understand why predentals think that way. I did.

Even though we spend roughly the first year at the medical school, we end up starting clinic at the same time as most schools. The reality is that you don’t need 2 years of simlab to be able to start seeing patients. When my friends at many schools spent +6mo waxing teeth (one person spent 10mo!), which to me is a huge waste of time, we do it for 2months, and it’s more than enough. We end up having much more relevant practice with waxing with real patient cases afterwards. The rest of D2 focuses on developing the skills you need to enter clinic. Our faculty has high expectations for the quality of our work, and being a small school, you can always seek help and have technicians work with you if needed, and you never fight for a simlab seat. At the med school, we already practiced patient interviewing at the hospital, so that really helps us.

Once you enter clinic, many dental schools will pair 3rd and 4th years together, so that each patient has 2 providers, 3rd years will do the preventative, restorative and non-surgical procedures, and 4th years will do most of the surgical stuff, endo and prosth. We don’t have that. Once you enter D3 fall, you can do whatever you want (if safe and supervised of course). Another huge thing is that because we are a small school and we make our own schedule right away, I have NEVER had issues with booking a chair. My best friend at another Boston school had to book a chair 3weeks in advance, but I could easily book a patient for the next day.
We have higher requirements than many schools actually. Again, you will be a dentist no matter what, but hsdm has the advantage of letting you curate your education. I did not like endo, so I did the minimum root canals needed (4), but one of my endo friends did 11. I did 4 dentures, but my prosth friend did more because she wanted to. I finished dental school with 21 crowns, but one of my friends graduated with +40. I graduated having done veneers, multiple bridges, crown lengthenings, wedge surgeries, and even a free tissue graft
Also, we all spend 2mo at a community health center, where you see 8-10patients a day. People get many fillings, extractions, crowns…

Because we spend time at the medical school, if you hate the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you. I ended up LOVING my first year, I didnt find it stressful or difficult because the support system is so good, and the emphasis is on learning rather than grades.

I’ve always wanted to be a general dentist, and also was leaning towards Penn while my parents would have preferred Harvard, so I get it 🙂 Penn for me was way too expensive (side note: the first year at the med school is $20 000 less because you dont pay dental fees), and I felt like people were more stressed. Wonderful school anyway.

Other things I considered:
-I knew I would be happy at Harvard. Pass fail is SO SO SO underrated. People are awesome, staff is supportive, the medical school year is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that brings you a wonderful perspective on patient care.
-opportunities: The flexibility in our education, pass/fail, our supportive faculty, and the reputation of hsdm means that specializing is easier if that’s what you want. You can also take classes or work with the business school, the school of public health, the engineering school… Getting a job as a GP after graduation was not hard for me. I also negotiated a much higher salary than originally offered
-Boston is amazing

Answering some of your concerns:
-pbls is just the med school. I also learn better with lectures, but omg were the didactics good at the med school with pbls. It genuinely cuts your study time before exam by 3. Much better than I expected
-Many canadians went to hsdm. The free time and mental energy you will get with pass/fail will be beneficial for boards studying I think
-You can specialize as an international student. All dental-school based residencies will give you an F1. Omfs and pediatrics will either give you a tn, f1 or h1b
-as for the med school, if you don’t like the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you that’s true

I’m definitely forgetting some things, but hope that helps! Again, Penn and Harvard are both great, so you have a lot to look forward to regardless 🙂

 

[SHe...]

On the first question on community health, there's going to be little difference. Both have strong connections with community resources, so ultimately working in a FQHC isn't going to be a problem. If you are looking for a path back to practice in your home country, seek any alumni from those schools who made it back to where you are from and get their opinions. Ask their alumni offices or do your own search via LinkedIn.

Thank you for the advice!

 

[SHe...]

Hello, I was in a very similar boat a few years ago, so maybe I can help. Spoiler: I chose Harvard and for me it was the best decision I could have made. Penn is also a wonderful school and could be the better choice for you, this is a personal decision that is unique to each applicant 🙂

One thing I want to emphasize now that I have talked to many dental students at other schools, including Penn, is that the clinical education at Harvard is actually very good. Is it as good as schools like Utah or VCU? No. But it’s 10x better than what I thought it would be as a predent. Years ago, Hsdm students spent 2years at the med school, and many students either switched from dental to med, or went into oral surgery, so a lot of people still have this idea that Harvard does not focus on general dentistry. Plus, we’re a very small school and barely anybody is on sdn, so there aren’t a lot of firsthand accounts of the hsdm experience. So I understand why predentals think that way. I did.

Even though we spend roughly the first year at the medical school, we end up starting clinic at the same time as most schools. The reality is that you don’t need 2 years of simlab to be able to start seeing patients. When my friends at many schools spent +6mo waxing teeth (one person spent 10mo!), which to me is a huge waste of time, we do it for 2months, and it’s more than enough. We end up having much more relevant practice with waxing with real patient cases afterwards. The rest of D2 focuses on developing the skills you need to enter clinic. Our faculty has high expectations for the quality of our work, and being a small school, you can always seek help and have technicians work with you if needed, and you never fight for a simlab seat. At the med school, we already practiced patient interviewing at the hospital, so that really helps us.

Once you enter clinic, many dental schools will pair 3rd and 4th years together, so that each patient has 2 providers, 3rd years will do the preventative, restorative and non-surgical procedures, and 4th years will do most of the surgical stuff, endo and prosth. We don’t have that. Once you enter D3 fall, you can do whatever you want (if safe and supervised of course). Another huge thing is that because we are a small school and we make our own schedule right away, I have NEVER had issues with booking a chair. My best friend at another Boston school had to book a chair 3weeks in advance, but I could easily book a patient for the next day.
We have higher requirements than many schools actually. Again, you will be a dentist no matter what, but hsdm has the advantage of letting you curate your education. I did not like endo, so I did the minimum root canals needed (4), but one of my endo friends did 11. I did 4 dentures, but my prosth friend did more because she wanted to. I finished dental school with 21 crowns, but one of my friends graduated with +40. I graduated having done veneers, multiple bridges, crown lengthenings, wedge surgeries, and even a free tissue graft
Also, we all spend 2mo at a community health center, where you see 8-10patients a day. People get many fillings, extractions, crowns…

Because we spend time at the medical school, if you hate the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you. I ended up LOVING my first year, I didnt find it stressful or difficult because the support system is so good, and the emphasis is on learning rather than grades.

I’ve always wanted to be a general dentist, and also was leaning towards Penn while my parents would have preferred Harvard, so I get it 🙂 Penn for me was way too expensive (side note: the first year at the med school is $20 000 less because you dont pay dental fees), and I felt like people were more stressed. Wonderful school anyway.

Other things I considered:
-I knew I would be happy at Harvard. Pass fail is SO SO SO underrated. People are awesome, staff is supportive, the medical school year is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that brings you a wonderful perspective on patient care.
-opportunities: The flexibility in our education, pass/fail, our supportive faculty, and the reputation of hsdm means that specializing is easier if that’s what you want. You can also take classes or work with the business school, the school of public health, the engineering school… Getting a job as a GP after graduation was not hard for me. I also negotiated a much higher salary than originally offered
-Boston is amazing

Answering some of your concerns:
-pbls is just the med school. I also learn better with lectures, but omg were the didactics good at the med school with pbls. It genuinely cuts your study time before exam by 3. Much better than I expected
-Many canadians went to hsdm. The free time and mental energy you will get with pass/fail will be beneficial for boards studying I think
-You can specialize as an international student. All dental-school based residencies will give you an F1. Omfs and pediatrics will either give you a tn, f1 or h1b
-as for the med school, if you don’t like the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you that’s true

I’m definitely forgetting some things, but hope that helps! Again, Penn and Harvard are both great, so you have a lot to look forward to regardless 🙂

Wow, thank you for this long response! I really appreciate hearing the perspective of someone who had a similar struggle and have went through the process! This information is very valuable in my decision making!

Would it be okay if I dm you if I have more questions in my decision making process? Thank you so much!

 

[BadKnight]

Hello, I was in a very similar boat a few years ago, so maybe I can help. Spoiler: I chose Harvard and for me it was the best decision I could have made. Penn is also a wonderful school and could be the better choice for you, this is a personal decision that is unique to each applicant 🙂

One thing I want to emphasize now that I have talked to many dental students at other schools, including Penn, is that the clinical education at Harvard is actually very good. Is it as good as schools like Utah or VCU? No. But it’s 10x better than what I thought it would be as a predent. Years ago, Hsdm students spent 2years at the med school, and many students either switched from dental to med, or went into oral surgery, so a lot of people still have this idea that Harvard does not focus on general dentistry. Plus, we’re a very small school and barely anybody is on sdn, so there aren’t a lot of firsthand accounts of the hsdm experience. So I understand why predentals think that way. I did.

Even though we spend roughly the first year at the medical school, we end up starting clinic at the same time as most schools. The reality is that you don’t need 2 years of simlab to be able to start seeing patients. When my friends at many schools spent +6mo waxing teeth (one person spent 10mo!), which to me is a huge waste of time, we do it for 2months, and it’s more than enough. We end up having much more relevant practice with waxing with real patient cases afterwards. The rest of D2 focuses on developing the skills you need to enter clinic. Our faculty has high expectations for the quality of our work, and being a small school, you can always seek help and have technicians work with you if needed, and you never fight for a simlab seat. At the med school, we already practiced patient interviewing at the hospital, so that really helps us.

Once you enter clinic, many dental schools will pair 3rd and 4th years together, so that each patient has 2 providers, 3rd years will do the preventative, restorative and non-surgical procedures, and 4th years will do most of the surgical stuff, endo and prosth. We don’t have that. Once you enter D3 fall, you can do whatever you want (if safe and supervised of course). Another huge thing is that because we are a small school and we make our own schedule right away, I have NEVER had issues with booking a chair. My best friend at another Boston school had to book a chair 3weeks in advance, but I could easily book a patient for the next day.
We have higher requirements than many schools actually. Again, you will be a dentist no matter what, but hsdm has the advantage of letting you curate your education. I did not like endo, so I did the minimum root canals needed (4), but one of my endo friends did 11. I did 4 dentures, but my prosth friend did more because she wanted to. I finished dental school with 21 crowns, but one of my friends graduated with +40. I graduated having done veneers, multiple bridges, crown lengthenings, wedge surgeries, and even a free tissue graft
Also, we all spend 2mo at a community health center, where you see 8-10patients a day. People get many fillings, extractions, crowns…

Because we spend time at the medical school, if you hate the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you. I ended up LOVING my first year, I didnt find it stressful or difficult because the support system is so good, and the emphasis is on learning rather than grades.

I’ve always wanted to be a general dentist, and also was leaning towards Penn while my parents would have preferred Harvard, so I get it 🙂 Penn for me was way too expensive (side note: the first year at the med school is $20 000 less because you dont pay dental fees), and I felt like people were more stressed. Wonderful school anyway.

Other things I considered:
-I knew I would be happy at Harvard. Pass fail is SO SO SO underrated. People are awesome, staff is supportive, the medical school year is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that brings you a wonderful perspective on patient care.
-opportunities: The flexibility in our education, pass/fail, our supportive faculty, and the reputation of hsdm means that specializing is easier if that’s what you want. You can also take classes or work with the business school, the school of public health, the engineering school… Getting a job as a GP after graduation was not hard for me. I also negotiated a much higher salary than originally offered
-Boston is amazing

Answering some of your concerns:
-pbls is just the med school. I also learn better with lectures, but omg were the didactics good at the med school with pbls. It genuinely cuts your study time before exam by 3. Much better than I expected
-Many canadians went to hsdm. The free time and mental energy you will get with pass/fail will be beneficial for boards studying I think
-You can specialize as an international student. All dental-school based residencies will give you an F1. Omfs and pediatrics will either give you a tn, f1 or h1b
-as for the med school, if you don’t like the medical sciences, that might not be the school for you that’s true

I’m definitely forgetting some things, but hope that helps! Again, Penn and Harvard are both great, so you have a lot to look forward to regardless 🙂

Thank you for this detailed info!! Is that ok if I pm you?

 

[caffeineluvr]

hi is penn p/f curriculum? thanks for the clarification