People that got accepted to Top 20 schools, what were your ECs?

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I personally divide Top-20 into two categories: top 20, then the powerhouse schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Etc.). That isn't to say the top 20 that aren't the powerhouse schools don't have insane research and top-tier facilities.

Friends of mine got accepted to top-20 non-powerhouse schools (almost nobody from my undergrad enters the powerhouse schools; we had one URM student do it a few years ago...but you can take that as it is...).

The friends at these top-20 non-powerhouse schools had your regular ECs. One of them had a 3.8, 33 MCAT, shadowed 4 doctors (40 hours each), did research junior and senior year of college, was president of one club (leisure - not a premed club), and had some TA experience. Other friends of mine had the "cookie cutter ECs" but very competitive MCAT scores (36+ on the old exam).

My own take is while incredible ECs certainly do make an applicant look attractive to all top-20 schools, they want to see incredible numbers. This is because strong numbers indicate the student won't fail the step 1 or have trouble passing classes, but also, so the school can post on their website "Our MCAT average is 517!!!" for whatever that's worth. If a student has top-tier numbers AND incredible ECs, the powerhouse schools start looking at them.
 
I personally divide Top-20 into two categories: top 20, then the powerhouse schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Etc.). That isn't to say the top 20 that aren't the powerhouse schools don't have insane research and top-tier facilities.

Friends of mine got accepted to top-20 non-powerhouse schools (almost nobody from my undergrad enters the powerhouse schools; we had one URM student do it a few years ago...but you can take that as it is...).

The friends at these top-20 non-powerhouse schools had your regular ECs. One of them had a 3.8, 33 MCAT, shadowed 4 doctors (40 hours each), did research junior and senior year of college, was president of one club (leisure - not a premed club), and had some TA experience. Other friends of mine had the "cookie cutter ECs" but very competitive MCAT scores (36+ on the old exam).

My own take is while incredible ECs certainly do make an applicant look attractive to all top-20 schools, they want to see incredible numbers. This is because strong numbers indicate the student won't fail the step 1 or have trouble passing classes, but also, so the school can post on their website "Our MCAT average is 517!!!" for whatever that's worth. If a student has top-tier numbers AND incredible ECs, the powerhouse schools start looking at them.

Thanks, this is the kind of answer I needed. If you don't mind me asking did you go to a top tier undergrad?
 
Curious what the rest of the powerhouse schools would be, surprised you include Yale there. Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, WashU (I wouldn't include this, too stat *****), Columbia? Duke?
 
Curious what the rest of the powerhouse schools would be, surprised you include Yale there. Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, WashU (I wouldn't include this, too stat *****), Columbia? Duke?
I didn't bother listing them all out, hence the "etc." lol. Also, I figured if I listed the powerhouse schools in my opinion we'd derail the thread and wouldn't address OP's question! But yeah, the schools you listed.
 
Based upon my sampling of SDNers who have gotten into Top Schools (admittedly a small n), these seem to have great stats and hundreds if not 1000s of hours of volunteering or paid clinical exposure.

Some schools definitely are stats ****** (like WashU), and seem to tolerate cookie cutter ECs.

The requirement for research and/or research productivity seems to be all over the place.


Curious what the rest of the powerhouse schools would be, surprised you include Yale there. Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, WashU (I wouldn't include this, too stat *****), Columbia? Duke?
Here's my definition of the "Top 20". There are several classes of schools in this group, like battleships of different classes. List is in no particular order
Wash U
U Chicago
U Penn
NYU
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Northwestern
Harvard
Yale
U VA
U MI
Stanford
JHU
Case
UCSF
UCLA,
UCSD,
U Cincy
Albert Einstein
Emory
BU
USC/Keck
Mayo
Dartmouth
Duke
Pitt
 
Based upon my sampling of SDNers who have gotten into Top Schools (admittedly a small n), these seem to have great stats and hundreds if not 1000s of hours of volunteering or paid clinical exposure.

Some schools definitely are stats ****** (like WashU), and seem to tolerate cookie cutter ECs.

The requirement for research and/or research productivity seems to be all over the place.



Here's my definition of the "Top 20". There are several classes of schools in this group, like battleships of different classes. List is in no particular order
Wash U
U Chicago
U Penn
NYU
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Northwestern
Harvard
Yale
U VA
U MI
Stanford
JHU
Case
UCSF
UCLA,
UCSD,
U Cincy
Albert Einstein
Emory
BU
USC/Keck
Mayo
Dartmouth
Duke
Pitt
Why dartmouth?
 
Based upon my sampling of SDNers who have gotten into Top Schools (admittedly a small n), these seem to have great stats and hundreds if not 1000s of hours of volunteering or paid clinical exposure.

Some schools definitely are stats ****** (like WashU), and seem to tolerate cookie cutter ECs.

The requirement for research and/or research productivity seems to be all over the place.



Here's my definition of the "Top 20". There are several classes of schools in this group, like battleships of different classes. List is in no particular order
Wash U
U Chicago
U Penn
NYU
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Northwestern
Harvard
Yale
U VA
U MI
Stanford
JHU
Case
UCSF
UCLA,
UCSD,
U Cincy
Albert Einstein
Emory
BU
USC/Keck
Mayo
Dartmouth
Duke
Pitt

Lol, apologies that this is derailing. That said, I do agree with the other poster that there's top20, then a tier above that. Curious what would be included there.
 
Lol, apologies that this is derailing. That said, I do agree with the other poster that there's top20, then a tier above that. Curious what would be included there.
The powerhouse schools I like to think of as the "old money." Harvard for instance. Its just on its old level. Yes there's some schools students argue to be better or, at least, equivalent to, but they will never be Harvard.

That being said, let's go back to OP's question. I remembered another friend of mine. He had top-tier stats (4.0 and 520+ MCAT) and is attending a powerhouse school. He took 4 years off after college to take the MCAT and boost his ECs. His ECs are those special ones that make adcoms really stop and smile. He worked with inner city children and basically founded/built a community center for "sports science." He coaches there and does tutoring and has worked to make the community much safer and better over the last 4 years. Now that's not a cookie-cutter EC 😛.
 
Why dartmouth?
Maybe @Goro has different reasoning, but between 2010-2014, the plurality of Geisel grads matched at a residency affiliated with Harvard med school. Dartmouth (and Brown Alpert, from what I've seen) seems to have connections similar to that group that bounces in and out of the USNews top 20. I wonder if this shows in the US News PD rankings.
 
you still need good ECs
@libertyyne brings up a good point. I was also foolish in college. I spent 1000s of hours on "ECs" that would set me apart. I had a solid GPA (near perfect) and then got a 29 on my MCAT. Very few MD schools interviewed me, those that did waitlisted me and said they couldn't admit a 29 despite an otherwise flawless application and interview. I saw "flawless application and interview" because upon being rejected, I contacted to the schools to see what I could improve upon, and all of them said my MCAT locked me out.

Students should focus more on the MCAT and GPA. I promise a top-20 or even a top-20-powerhouse will look at you with a 520 and a 3.95. Let's face reality: Everyone can shadow. Everyone can do research. Everyone can volunteer. Everyone can be a TA. Everyone can go to a third world country for a week and take selfies of them performing procedures they're not legally allowed to and posting it on social media, woops, I meant, Global Medical stuff. Everyone can get "letters of recommendation from a doctor I shadowed that IS ON THE ADMISSIONS COMMITTEE!!!!"

Not everyone can excel in the classes or the MCAT. I belong to the latter and am working to improve it. A medical school can't admit or even interview someone without good stats; because, believe it or not, step 1, NBME Shelf exams, and all the other paper based exams are based on knowledge and excellent testtaking. Yes, you can argue your evals by your 3rd and 4th year preceptors make up a large chunk of your grade, but (for now, under a Trump Regime...) still license and award medical diplomas upon students proving themselves on written examinations.
 
Yes , yes. Mcat 518+ and gpa of 3.95+ are excellent ECs.
I love what you said so much. Seriously, you should be a pre-med adviser! Enough of this bullsh*t where applicants and students are like "well I did 3k research and volunteering hours with a 501 and 3.2, I'm definitely getting interviews."
 
@libertyyne brings up a good point. I was also foolish in college. I spent 1000s of hours on "ECs" that would set me apart. I had a solid GPA (near perfect) and then got a 29 on my MCAT. Very few MD schools interviewed me, those that did waitlisted me and said they couldn't admit a 29 despite an otherwise flawless application and interview. I saw "flawless application and interview" because upon being rejected, I contacted to the schools to see what I could improve upon, and all of them said my MCAT locked me out.

Students should focus more on the MCAT and GPA. I promise a top-20 or even a top-20-powerhouse will look at you with a 520 and a 3.95. Let's face reality: Everyone can shadow. Everyone can do research. Everyone can volunteer. Everyone can be a TA. Everyone can go to a third world country for a week and take selfies of them performing procedures they're not legally allowed to and posting it on social media, woops, I meant, Global Medical stuff. Everyone can get "letters of recommendation from a doctor I shadowed that IS ON THE ADMISSIONS COMMITTEE!!!!"

Not everyone can excel in the classes or the MCAT. I belong to the latter and am working to improve it. A medical school can't admit or even interview someone without good stats; because, believe it or not, step 1, NBME Shelf exams, and all the other paper based exams are based on knowledge and excellent testtaking. Yes, you can argue your evals by your 3rd and 4th year preceptors make up a large chunk of your grade, but (for now, under a Trump Regime...) still license and award medical diplomas upon students proving themselves on written examinations.

29 is really low. Should have retaken. Its a red flag.
 
I love what you said so much. Seriously, you should be a pre-med adviser! Enough of this bullsh*t where applicants and students are like "well I did 3k research and volunteering hours with a 501 and 3.2, I'm definitely getting interviews."

Disagree with this though. I have a GPA below 3.4 and am attending a top10, 100% because of ECs. I do have a top end MCAT to back up my academic ability, but it's not all stats at that point. I actually disagree with the other poster as well, almost anyone can get an excellent GPA and there are numerically a ****load of excellent MCATs too. Much harder to actually build exceptional ECs.
 
Disagree with this though. I have a GPA below 3.4 and am attending a top10, 100% because of ECs. I do have a top end MCAT to back up my academic ability, but it's not all stats at that point. I actually disagree with the other poster as well, almost anyone can get an excellent GPA and there are numerically a ****load of excellent MCATs too. Much harder to actually build exceptional ECs.

Why dont we agree on either/or? For 10-30 ranked schools (so not Harvard, but Mnt.Sinai,BU, Keck) , intense EC's or solid EC's with a great MCAT and a 3.8+ GPA ( or a 3.7 with an UW trend, or going to a top UGrad, b/c that seems to work based on what I've seen here).
Also @Dr. Stalker , did you not properly prep for the MCAT? How does somebody make top grades but not be able to make a solid MCAT ( I'm not trying to be mean, its just that my grades are fine and seeing stuff like this freaks me out). I also feel like if you're smart enough to make top grades, you can make a decent MCAT.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
I love what you said so much. Seriously, you should be a pre-med adviser! Enough of this bullsh*t where applicants and students are like "well I did 3k research and volunteering hours with a 501 and 3.2, I'm definitely getting interviews."
There are 3000 people with MCATs=+518, there are ~2700 seats in the top 20. Some of those folks probably have terrible GPA's so it excludes them.

It doesnt take a statistician to figure out that if you have a median mcat of 38 at a school with a 10th percentile above 32 people applying with lower scores probably are not going to get anywhere.

Disagree with this though. I have a GPA below 3.4 and am attending a top10, 100% because of ECs. I do have a top end MCAT to back up my academic ability, but it's not all stats at that point. I actually disagree with the other poster as well, almost anyone can get an excellent GPA and there are numerically a ****load of excellent MCATs too. Much harder to actually build exceptional ECs.
You are the exception not the rule. These schools dont end up with 10th percentiles above 3.6 by making a habit of accepting people with a gpa of 3.4. UCLA might be different though.
 
Why dont we agree on either/or? For 10-30 ranked schools (so not Harvard, but Mnt.Sinai,BU, Keck) , intense EC's or solid EC's with a great MCAT and a 3.8+ GPA ( or a 3.7 with an UW trend, or going to a top UGrad, b/c that seems to work based on what I've seen here).
Also @Dr. Stalker , did you not properly prep for the MCAT? How does somebody make top grades but not be able to make a solid MCAT ( I'm not trying to be mean, its just that my grades are fine and seeing stuff like this freaks me out). I also feel like if you're smart enough to make top grades, you can make a decent MCAT.
Sorry to barge but I want to give my 2c here. MCAT and college courses are separate things. You can be good at one and not the other. In addition, schools and courses of study vary widely in rigor. So a 4.0 in basketweaving does not necessarily equate to a 517+ MCAT. While there are a lot of kids who are certainly capable of scoring high on the MCAT, the nature of the test is so different from college classes that it's more difficult than you'd think. Remember AP classes in high school? Ever make an A in the class but get a 2 or 3 on the exam? It's the same idea.
Like you, I'm not trying to mean or anything but you sound a little presumptuous. I suggest at least taking a practice MCAT before commenting on the test and how grades/scores relate.
 
Sorry to barge but I want to give my 2c here. MCAT and college courses are separate things. You can be good at one and not the other. In addition, schools and courses of study vary widely in rigor. So a 4.0 in basketweaving does not necessarily equate to a 517+ MCAT. While there are a lot of kids who are certainly capable of scoring high on the MCAT, the nature of the test is so different from college classes that it's more difficult than you'd think. Remember AP classes in high school? Ever make an A in the class but get a 2 or 3 on the exam? It's the same idea.
Like you, I'm not trying to mean or anything but you sound a little presumptuous. I suggest at least taking a practice MCAT before commenting on the test and how grades/scores relate.
This^. GPA has no bearing on MCAT.
 
Disagree with this though. I have a GPA below 3.4 and am attending a top10, 100% because of ECs. I do have a top end MCAT to back up my academic ability, but it's not all stats at that point. I actually disagree with the other poster as well, almost anyone can get an excellent GPA and there are numerically a ****load of excellent MCATs too. Much harder to actually build exceptional ECs.
I respect and see your point of view. I'm saying the overwhelming majority, if not half of your top 10 class did have stellar numbers?

I actually disagree with the point on the MCAT and GPA. GPA can be buffed via easy classes to boost GPA, summer classes, and online classes. The MCAT can't just be studied and aced. It really has to be mastered and despite my near flawless GPA (no grade buffing; in fact I took graduate science classes most of junior and senior year) i'm having a lot of trouble with the critical thinking and data analysis that's key to the MCAT.

I'm not trying to minimize ECs or your hard work. Its very commendable. And congratulations to being at a top 10.

But let's just look at NYU: Median and Average MCAT scores are 520 and 518.5. There are certainly exceptions, and we can confirm this looking at the 10th percentile MCAT and GPAs for all top-20s. While those students do show up and get admitted, I'm saying they're few and far between. Instead, the majority of the class probably has the numbers along with good/great ECs, but just not the caliber of incredible ECs.
 
I'm not sure if I count based on the criteria, but I had pretty good, but not absolutely exceptional (which I classify as stats so good you would actually have to have incredibly mediocre ECs and horrible interview skills to not get admitted, so like 524+, 3.9+), stats for the 'top tier' schools. Plus, I'm Asian. I also didn't have amazing research or thousands of clinical hours, and I applied to all of my schools in late August-late September (I was stupid, didn't know about sdn back then, and didn't really have many premed friends/know what I was doing). However, I did have a strong theme in my extracurriculars: teaching. There was a clear progression of my teaching/tutoring experiences. I started off as an elementary/middle/high school volunteer tutor, then took up a paid position to work with schools in need around my city's area, taught a class on my own, went on educational trips during breaks, worked for an MCAT teaching/tutoring company, etc. So I think that having a strong theme and dedication in your ECs can help quite a bit.
 
Why dont we agree on either/or? For 10-30 ranked schools (so not Harvard, but Mnt.Sinai,BU, Keck) , intense EC's or solid EC's with a great MCAT and a 3.8+ GPA ( or a 3.7 with an UW trend, or going to a top UGrad, b/c that seems to work based on what I've seen here).
Also @Dr. Stalker , did you not properly prep for the MCAT? How does somebody make top grades but not be able to make a solid MCAT ( I'm not trying to be mean, its just that my grades are fine and seeing stuff like this freaks me out). I also feel like if you're smart enough to make top grades, you can make a decent MCAT.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
I have a series of "great excuses" as to why my score wasn't top, but at the end of the day, they're excuses. The thing was I was burned out. I spent 2 months at 80 hours a week (I log my studying hours...) and took my exam just completely exhausted. I was also a bit more immature in college, I thought hard work = good grades. Not with the MCAT. Its a marathon, not a sprint or whatever the hell the phrase is.

PS: The score is good...its my score, teehee, admissions committees just don't think so 😛
 
I'm not sure if I count based on the criteria, but I had pretty good, but not absolutely exceptional (which I classify as stats so good you would actually have to have incredibly mediocre ECs and horrible interview skills to not get admitted, so like 524+, 3.9+), stats for the 'top tier' schools. Plus, I'm Asian. I also didn't have amazing research or thousands of clinical hours, and I applied to all of my schools in late August-late September (I was stupid, didn't know about sdn back then, and didn't really have many premed friends/know what I was doing). However, I did have a strong theme in my extracurriculars: teaching. There was a clear progression of my teaching/tutoring experiences. I started off as an elementary/middle/high school volunteer tutor, then took up a paid position to work with schools in need around my city's area, taught a class on my own, went on educational trips during breaks, worked for an MCAT teaching/tutoring company, etc. So I think that having a strong theme and dedication in your ECs can help quite a bit.
What were your stats if you dont mind sharing?
 
What were your stats if you dont mind sharing?
521 mcat, 3.80-3.85 gpa. I'm not denying they're pretty good, but I don't think that by themselves they were enough to get me in. Especially since I applied so late (I think my first completed secondary was on the last day of August).
 
521 mcat, 3.80-3.85 gpa. I'm not denying they're pretty good, but I don't think that by themselves they were enough to get me in. Especially since I applied so late (I think my first completed secondary was on the last day of August).
lol. You have a 100th percentile MCAT score. By definition exceptional.
 
lol. You have a 100th percentile MCAT score. By definition exceptional.

521 is 99percentile.
521 mcat, 3.80-3.85 gpa. I'm not denying they're pretty good, but I don't think that by themselves they were enough to get me in. Especially since I applied so late (I think my first completed secondary was on the last day of August).

where did u matriculate?
 
lol. You have a 100th percentile MCAT score.
But that's like average for the school I'm going to haha. Not to derail this thread, but here's my two cents: mcat isn't as important in some respects as GPA. GPA shows hard work and dedication. The MCAT doesn't require as much studying as it does critical thinking, which I would say I'm much better at than rote memorization. For instance, my CARS score didn't change much at all from day one of studying to test day. I studied about 2 months during the school year for my MCAT, but I worked longer (and thus, one could argue, harder) on my GPA. And from what I've seen, medical school, and life in general, is more about hard work. Ok. End of tangent.
 
But that's like average for the school I'm going to haha. Not to derail this thread, but here's my two cents: mcat isn't as important in some respects as GPA. GPA shows hard work and dedication. The MCAT doesn't require as much studying as it does critical thinking, which I would say I'm much better at than rote memorization. For instance, my CARS score didn't change much at all from day one of studying to test day. I studied about 2 months during the school year for my MCAT, but I worked longer (and thus, one could argue, harder) on my GPA. And from what I've seen, medical school, and life in general, is more about hard work. Ok. End of tangent.
I dont disagree with you , however medical school admissions are heavily weighted on the MCAT. No one is giving the time of day to 4.0 25's, except new DO schools.
 
But that's like average for the school I'm going to haha.

But how many med schools did you apply to where your stats are average? And how does the average matriculant compare to the average applicant in terms of MCAT? Not that you don't need good ECs and interview skills on top of that.
 
Also, will really high stats make up for less amazing but still adequate or cookie-cutter ECs at Top 20s?

Yes they probably will for WashU (and I think maybe for Penn and NYU). Of course, I'm talking something like 3.9+/523+.

The tippy top schools (Harvard, Stanford, JHU, UCSF etc.) require a much more compelling application on top of having good stats. I'm pretty sure that someone who is a Rhodes Scholar and has good stats can essentially sweep Top 20.
 
But that's like average for the school I'm going to haha. Not to derail this thread, but here's my two cents: mcat isn't as important in some respects as GPA. GPA shows hard work and dedication. The MCAT doesn't require as much studying as it does critical thinking, which I would say I'm much better at than rote memorization. For instance, my CARS score didn't change much at all from day one of studying to test day. I studied about 2 months during the school year for my MCAT, but I worked longer (and thus, one could argue, harder) on my GPA. And from what I've seen, medical school, and life in general, is more about hard work. Ok. End of tangent.
I dont disagree with you , however medical school admissions are heavily weighted on the MCAT. No one is giving the time of day to 4.0 25's, except new DO schools.

Yeah medical school admissions is probably more heavily weighed towards academic metrics than we would like. This is why having super high MCAT scores can actually get someone yield protected/auto-rejected at some low tiers simply because their MCAT is above their 90th percentiles.
 
But how many med schools did you apply to where your stats are average? And how does the average matriculant compare to the average applicant in terms of MCAT? Not that you don't need good ECs and interview skills on top of that.
Well, I didn't think I had an exceptional application and just wanted to get into a med school, so I only applied to two top twenties.
 
I'm going to a T10, applied late (submitted secondary for where I'm going in November) and I had extremely average stats (not URM). I do think it was my unique ECs that got me in...like GotIronKnee said I was able to build a theme for my entire application and showed clear dedication to service over my entire undergrad career + gap years. And all my interviews focused almost 95% on my ECs. Yes I'm probably more the exception than the rule, but I think it's good idea to build ECs you are passionate about, not just ones you do to impress Med schools. Based on what I've read while editing PS's it seems like a lot of people have ECs but they don't convey a passion for it outside of it being a stepping stone to Med school and/or convey them in the PS in an arrogant or dull or paternalistic way (esp clinical stuff).
 
I'm going to a T10, applied late (submitted secondary for where I'm going in November) and I had extremely average stats (not URM). I do think it was my unique ECs that got me in...like GotIronKnee said I was able to build a theme for my entire application and showed clear dedication to service over my entire undergrad career + gap years. And all my interviews focused almost 95% on my ECs. Yes I'm probably more the exception than the rule, but I think it's good idea to build ECs you are passionate about, not just ones you do to impress Med schools. Based on what I've read while editing PS's it seems like a lot of people have ECs but they don't convey a passion for it outside of it being a stepping stone to Med school and/or convey them in the PS in an arrogant or dull or paternalistic way (esp clinical stuff).
What were your average stats if you dont mind sharing. never mind, you might be the exception and your app does have special sauce in the ECs.
 
Well, I didn't think I had an exceptional application and just wanted to get into a med school, so I only applied to two top twenties.
Dayum. All it takes is one. But seriously, you were in the top 1%, definitely exceptional.
 
Dayum. All it takes is one. But seriously, you were in the top 1%, definitely exceptional.
lol I only applied to about handful but I didn't apply to just 2. It just that out of those I applied to only 2 were "top 20s". Thanks, but there are far more exceptional candidates than me.
 
lol I only applied to about handful but I didn't apply to just 2. It just that out of those I applied to only 2 were "top 20s". Thanks, but there are far more exceptional candidates than me.
Yeah, I knew you meant 2 Top 20s + others, but 1/2 is pretty good since (like most med schools) the Top 20s have sub-5% acceptance rates and (unlike most med schools) they have a lot of applicants with your (overall exceptional) stats.

Edit: That post allowed me to really get back into my natural groove of overusing parentheses.
 
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