Pharmacists/Preceptors: What can be done by us?

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VP_Pharm2004

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As everyone knows, new pharmacy schools keep opening up left and right. The quality of a good student is diminishing greatly. I have had the ability to precept students from 2 new schools in my area. Let me just tell you that I'm amazed at how these students hardly know anything. One of my students actually told a patient that they needed "nasal congestion" and phenylpropanolamine would work. Also, they recommended sertraline as an antihistamine, rather than "certirizine". This student was about to start P2 year, mind you.

I know my job is to teach/correct the students, but damn. They hardly had any OTC / Top 200 knowledge base. Could not consult for the life of him/her. I can't blame the student, because other students from this school were pretty similar in their knowledge base. The thing I didn't appreciate was when a student couldn't even justify why he chose pharmacy as a career. He said it was lucrative career and that's it. How the hell did you pass the interview phase?! Some students could barely even speak English.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but when I think back to the end of my P1 year, I felt very comfortable with OTC consultations and common brand/generic names.

In conclusion, other local preceptors and myself have decided to no longer host students from these new schools. It's just not worth the headache to teach students that hardly learn anything from these programs. Most of them don't even care about pharmacy, they're clearly just doing it for the money (from my experience).

Anyways, preceptors need to do their part by not hosting students from new schools. Honestly, do we need more pharmacists out there? Especially from schools that clearly don't care and just want tuition money? If the clinical rotation sites lack for a program, what actions will the school be forced to take?

With market saturation affecting many vets and new grads, something needs to be done to control the number of new schools. Clearly, the accreditation committee doesn't care about our profession. Any program can pay for a NAPLEX or MPJE prep course to guarantee that the first class has a high passing rate.

Maybe we can make a change by no longer hosting students from new schools and only accepting students from established programs? Is that possible? Will that make an impact?
 
Other points were good, but I think you were being too harsh on the P1 student (I assume he didn't start his P2 year yet). My p1 year, we hardly learned anything about drugs. It wasn't until my P2 year that we really started focusing on drugs and counseling. I mean how can you expect a P1 student to be perfect at those things? Granted, he shouldn't have made those recommendations if he didn't know what he was talking about...

Btw... I went to a top 15 school, so I know it's not because my school was bad for not focusing on drugs our P1 yr lol
 
Not all new schools are bad...some of them are and some of them aren't.

I can be hard to judge the level of knowledge during the years because the curriculum is different between schools. We had little drug knowledge after the first year as well. I've seen good/bad students from all schools. Can't base the opinion of the school from one student.
 
Unfortunately, no because:
 
Last edited:
(1) Preceptors: hey I know there's already a saturation of pharmacists but hey if you pay me, I will take your students

(2) ACPE: we have to give new schools accreditation or we are going to get sued. Sure, we can raise our standards but that would mean fewer schools will apply for accreditation and therefore, less money for us

(3) NAPLEX/MPJE: hey I know we are a joke but we are making a ton of money now because pharmacists have to be licensed in multiple states due to the saturation

(4) Pharmacy schools: sure there's a saturation but as long as the federal government keeps on guaranteeing student loans, we will continue to make a killing

(5) Pharmacy students: I know it's tough but hey, I am a top student with a great personality. I will be one of the lucky ones. Besides, who knows what's going to happen 3 or 4 years from now?

(6) Pharmacists: yeah, I have 300 k in student loans and benefits/pay have been cut but hey, what can I do? I just wanted to do part-time and never wanted pharmacy to be a career anyways.

(7) Pre pharmacy students: all of these pharmacists are whiner! They just verify while making me doing all of the work. What? My friend who has a 2.5 GPA just got accepted to a new school? All I have to do is borrow 300 k and I can one day work as a pharmacist? I don't care if I just make 70 k a year. That's a lot better than working as a pharmacy tech! I am not going to worry about student loans because I am pretty sure the government will one day forgive them. Where do I sign up??!

And the cycle continues.
 
BMBiology said:
(1) Preceptors: hey I know there's already a saturation of pharmacists but hey if you pay me, I will take your students

(2) ACPE: we have to give new schools accreditation or we are going to get sued. Sure, we can raise our standards but that would mean fewer schools will apply for accreditation and therefore, less money for us

(3) NAPLEX/MPJE: hey I know we are a joke but we are making a ton of money now because pharmacists have to be licensed in multiple states due to the saturation

(4) Pharmacy schools: sure there's a saturation but as long as the federal government keeps on guaranteeing student loans, we will continue to make a killing

(5) Pharmacy students: I know it's tough but hey, I am a top student with a great personality. I will be one of the lucky ones. Besides, who knows what's going to happen 3 or 4 years from now?

(6) Pharmacists: yeah, I have 300 k in student loans and benefits/pay have been cut but hey, what can I do? I just wanted to do part-time and never wanted pharmacy to be a career anyways.

(7) Pre pharmacy students: all of these pharmacists are whiner! They just verify while making me doing all of the work. What? My friend who has a 2.5 GPA just got accepted to a new school? All I have to do is borrow 300 k and I can one day work as a pharmacist? I don't care if I just make 70 k a year. That's a lot better than working as a pharmacy tech! I am not going to worry about student loans because I am pretty sure the government will one day forgive them. Where do I sign up??!

And the cycle continues.
Click to expand...

Haha love it! So accurate!

If loan forgiveness happens, I will just have to leave this damn country and try my luck elsewhere. Shifting loans onto tax payers will be the end of this "great" nation. Oh sure, I'll try to make a living, raise my own family, and I'll also try to pay of your debt since you can't seem to do it yourself.
 
(8) Residents: I am doing a residency so I will get that job everybody wants. What? I have to do 2 years of residency now or work at Kmart? Thank god there's IBR! I don't care about the compounding interest and I will end up paying more on student loans. I will do a 2 year residency! I am a unicorn! Love me
 
BMBiology said:
(2) ACPE: we have to give new schools accreditation or we are going to get sued. Sure, we can raise our standards but that would mean fewer schools will apply for accreditation and therefore, less money for us
Click to expand...

Except that the ACPE has a "Strategic Commitment" to "Strengthening the profession" for all that's worth.
 
BMBiology said:
(8) Residents: I am doing a residency so I will get that job everybody wants. What? I have to do 2 years of residency now or work at Kmart? Thank god there's IBR! I don't care about the compounding interest and I will end up paying more on student loans. I will do a 2 year residency! I am a unicorn! Love me
Click to expand...

So true 🙁 Though instead of IBR, I'm deferring most of my loans.
Trying to keep myself optimistic though, as it's still early. I figure I had some job leads post-match last year as a student, so hopefully the situation won't be any worse when I'm done my PGY-1. Just hoping that I won't end up doing 2nd shift staffing, but if I do, I guess it's not the end of the world, still keeps me out of retail.
 
VP_Pharm2004 said:
As everyone knows, new pharmacy schools keep opening up left and right. The quality of a good student is diminishing greatly. I have had the ability to precept students from 2 new schools in my area. Let me just tell you that I'm amazed at how these students hardly know anything. One of my students actually told a patient that they needed "nasal congestion" and phenylpropanolamine would work. Also, they recommended sertraline as an antihistamine, rather than "certirizine". This student was about to start P2 year, mind you.

I know my job is to teach/correct the students, but damn. They hardly had any OTC / Top 200 knowledge base. Could not consult for the life of him/her. I can't blame the student, because other students from this school were pretty similar in their knowledge base. The thing I didn't appreciate was when a student couldn't even justify why he chose pharmacy as a career. He said it was lucrative career and that's it. How the hell did you pass the interview phase?! Some students could barely even speak English.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but when I think back to the end of my P1 year, I felt very comfortable with OTC consultations and common brand/generic names.

In conclusion, other local preceptors and myself have decided to no longer host students from these new schools. It's just not worth the headache to teach students that hardly learn anything from these programs. Most of them don't even care about pharmacy, they're clearly just doing it for the money (from my experience).

Anyways, preceptors need to do their part by not hosting students from new schools. Honestly, do we need more pharmacists out there? Especially from schools that clearly don't care and just want tuition money? If the clinical rotation sites lack for a program, what actions will the school be forced to take?

With market saturation affecting many vets and new grads, something needs to be done to control the number of new schools. Clearly, the accreditation committee doesn't care about our profession. Any program can pay for a NAPLEX or MPJE prep course to guarantee that the first class has a high passing rate.

Maybe we can make a change by no longer hosting students from new schools and only accepting students from established programs? Is that possible? Will that make an impact?
Click to expand...

What new school is this? Is it in Northern CA?
 
Some programs teach basics on drug classes beginning the first year, but others (like mine) won't start these lessons till the middle of the second year
 
VP_Pharm2004 said:
As everyone knows, new pharmacy schools keep opening up left and right. The quality of a good student is diminishing greatly. I have had the ability to precept students from 2 new schools in my area. Let me just tell you that I'm amazed at how these students hardly know anything. One of my students actually told a patient that they needed "nasal congestion" and phenylpropanolamine would work. Also, they recommended sertraline as an antihistamine, rather than "certirizine". This student was about to start P2 year, mind you.

I know my job is to teach/correct the students, but damn. They hardly had any OTC / Top 200 knowledge base. Could not consult for the life of him/her. I can't blame the student, because other students from this school were pretty similar in their knowledge base. The thing I didn't appreciate was when a student couldn't even justify why he chose pharmacy as a career. He said it was lucrative career and that's it. How the hell did you pass the interview phase?! Some students could barely even speak English.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but when I think back to the end of my P1 year, I felt very comfortable with OTC consultations and common brand/generic names.

In conclusion, other local preceptors and myself have decided to no longer host students from these new schools. It's just not worth the headache to teach students that hardly learn anything from these programs. Most of them don't even care about pharmacy, they're clearly just doing it for the money (from my experience).

Anyways, preceptors need to do their part by not hosting students from new schools. Honestly, do we need more pharmacists out there? Especially from schools that clearly don't care and just want tuition money? If the clinical rotation sites lack for a program, what actions will the school be forced to take?

With market saturation affecting many vets and new grads, something needs to be done to control the number of new schools. Clearly, the accreditation committee doesn't care about our profession. Any program can pay for a NAPLEX or MPJE prep course to guarantee that the first class has a high passing rate.

Maybe we can make a change by no longer hosting students from new schools and only accepting students from established programs? Is that possible? Will that make an impact?
Click to expand...

Overall, you may have some points, but you are being way to hard on someone just starting P2. As other's have pointed out, not all P1 schools touch on drugs the first year....that doesn't mean they won't ever teach about those drugs, that is why there are 3 years of classroom teaching & 1 year of rotations.
 
During my first P1 semester we didn't focus too much on drugs. We took the pharmaceutical sciences needed to properly understand them. Now we are learning more about the drugs and how to counsel. We are expected to know the top 100 and their classes by the end of P1 year as well as being able to counsel on more basic products like blood pressure meds, diabetes meds, and other commonly occurring things.

There are some students that are lazy and lacking in drug knowledge, but I wouldn't judge the students based on how their curriculum is constructed. If I was a preceptor I would review the school curriculum and ask appropriate questions/assign appropriate tasks to a student given their level of educational training.
 
Digsbe said:
There are some students that are lazy and lacking in drug knowledge...
Click to expand...

But how many can name veterinary-use-only nasal decongestants like phenylpropanolamine? This sounds like someone really special.
 
BMBiology said:
(1) Preceptors: hey I know there's already a saturation of pharmacists but hey if you pay me, I will take your students

(2) ACPE: we have to give new schools accreditation or we are going to get sued. Sure, we can raise our standards but that would mean fewer schools will apply for accreditation and therefore, less money for us

(3) NAPLEX/MPJE: hey I know we are a joke but we are making a ton of money now because pharmacists have to be licensed in multiple states due to the saturation

(4) Pharmacy schools: sure there's a saturation but as long as the federal government keeps on guaranteeing student loans, we will continue to make a killing

(5) Pharmacy students: I know it's tough but hey, I am a top student with a great personality. I will be one of the lucky ones. Besides, who knows what's going to happen 3 or 4 years from now?

(6) Pharmacists: yeah, I have 300 k in student loans and benefits/pay have been cut but hey, what can I do? I just wanted to do part-time and never wanted pharmacy to be a career anyways.

(7) Pre pharmacy students: all of these pharmacists are whiner! They just verify while making me doing all of the work. What? My friend who has a 2.5 GPA just got accepted to a new school? All I have to do is borrow 300 k and I can one day work as a pharmacist? I don't care if I just make 70 k a year. That's a lot better than working as a pharmacy tech! I am not going to worry about student loans because I am pretty sure the government will one day forgive them. Where do I sign up??!

And the cycle continues.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on. You, my friend, are a genius. 👍
 
zelman said:
But how many can name veterinary-use-only nasal decongestants like phenylpropanolamine? This sounds like someone really special.
Click to expand...

All4MyDaughter said:
Since it used to be available for use in humans for this purpose, my guess is that they looked in an out of date reference.
Click to expand...

It worked well for me the time I used it...and didn't experience that nasty side effect of having a massive stroke. 😱
 
I just hope preceptors just take my suggestion and don't accept any students. Well, the preceptors that aren't directly involved with the school anyways. This situation is just getting way too out of hand and the ACPE don't give a rat's ass about it.🙄
 
VP_Pharm2004 said:
I just hope preceptors just take my suggestion and don't accept any students. Well, the preceptors that aren't directly involved with the school anyways. This situation is just getting way too out of hand and the ACPE don't give a rat's ass about it.🙄
Click to expand...

Our hospital only accepted students from our State's land grant university. We have no plans of accepting students from any of the new, private programs.
 
VP_Pharm2004 said:
Most of them don't even care about pharmacy, they're clearly just doing it for the money (from my experience).
Click to expand...

That was just as true when I was in school 20 years ago.

Nowadays, it also seems that a HUGE proportion of them are coming out of school with NO job experience of any kind. Has anyone else noticed this?
 
rph3664 said:
That was just as true when I was in school 20 years ago.

Nowadays, it also seems that a HUGE proportion of them are coming out of school with NO job experience of any kind. Has anyone else noticed this?
Click to expand...

The lack of pharmacy internships only seems to worsen the problem. I am having a hard time getting an internship in my area.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using SDN Mobile
 
stoichiometrist said:
The lack of pharmacy internships only seems to worsen the problem. I am having a hard time getting an internship in my area.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

You realize that this is what the original poser is advocating, right?
 
Deja said:
i don't think it is
Click to expand...

OP is saying that no one should hire students from new schools or bad schools and not allow them to come on as IPPE/APPE students either.

Not the worst idea I've ever heard.
 
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