PhD after DVM

[Whatisthemeaningoflife?]

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Hi everyone, I am in a bit of difficult situation right now. For the context, I am a foreign vet interested in specialization. I have passed Navle and have one final exam to take to get my vet degree certified in North America. But as you know it is very difficult to get into residency as we have limited exposure and opportunities. After last year's match rejection for the SA Rotating internship, I tried my best again to improve myself and my profile by doing an externship in different countries. Doing virtual internship, etc. One externship was in a specialty hospital. Infact, one neurologist was kind enough to give me LOR for this match cycle. I also did few other things to improve my chance of matching. Alas, this year also I could not match. It was disappointing to say the least.

It has been a terrible experience trying so hard, and not being good enough, really makes me doubt if there is any light at the end of the tunnel. I really did try my best to get out of my comfort zone, seeking opportunities beyond my country with limited finances and family issues to deal with. Where I come from, we have very limited opportunities and support. But that has not stopped me from learning and working on myself. However, I realized one can only do so much.

Right now I have 2 opportunities that I am very grateful for. One is a course-based Master's program with a vet neurologist as a research supervisor. However, the downside is the course is so expensive for international grad (around 27k USD, plus living costs and others). As a international grad, it is very costly due to currency exchange. Plus the course is Biomed science with only good part is one semester of research project. I feel like the course is not that relevant for me. But the good thing is I get to work on the research with vet specialist professor for 3 months which may be helpful for my future with networking for specialization opportunity. And the professor has said he has helped international grad to get into specialization (not sure how). This was the reason, I got so excited in this course. For the first time, I had a prospect of specialization. Originally our plan was to apply for scholarship but unfortunately I did not get it. And he could not secure any funding. Although the cost of this course is super high, I could get work visa and maybe earn more to compensate for the tuition fee for the course maybe and apply for match again and hopefully get it but there is no certainity, only trust, I guess. With this pathway, there is a chance I could get into specialization pathway faster.

On the other hand, I have another opportunity. PhD in Biomed science ( veterinary dx rx research) at a good R1 University in the US. Good parts are tuition waiver, Graduate assistanship, reputed professor. However, phd is around 5 years long and I want to specialize which will take around 5 years. It is gonna be a long difficult journey so it feels overwhelming. The research project topic seems okayish but not so much exciting and professor is very busy person so I have to be self-reliant. I have always craved for a good mentorship all my life but haven't been lucky so far and things are not looking so good now too with the phd( any blessing in disguise here? No idea). Another thing is I am also afraid of being away from clinical practice and forgetting clinical knowledge and skills during phd.

With all of this, I feel blessed I have gotten this opportunity especially as an international grad. I do not want to choose one and regret it later in life. That will be impact the people around me and research I do for the animals. So I am asking a help and insights from a kind strangers in the veterinary community.

How should I approach with the decision making process?
For those who have done Phd after DVM, why did you choose that path? What are the pros and cons of phd? If you want to specialize, then are there any benefits of doing phd besides working in academics?
What do you wish you had known before starting phd?
In the hindsight, do you feel your phd choice was worth the hassle for you?
Is there anything I should be aware of when making this decision, anything I might be overlooking?

Sorry for such a long post. It has been mentally taxing. So may things have been going over mind. I am overthinking. Forgive me for this. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

 

[pp9]

I can't offer PhD-specific advice as I don't have one, but I can all but guarantee you that the reason you didn't match is because you aren't eligible for licensing in the US, not because you aren't otherwise a good applicant. Very, very few programs are willing to take on international vets both from a licensing and a visa standpoint. Academic programs are more likely to take you on than private practice, but there are far fewer internship spots in academia than in private practice.

Once you are eligible for US licensing, I think your odds of matching will be much higher. There are more rotating internship spots than applicants. You may not get your first choice, but that goes for anyone. Once you can get a license, you just need to find a hospital that will take you on a visa.

Edit: I just wanted to add in that given the current US political climate, it is possible that you will have a harder time getting a hospital to take you on a visa than you would have before. Aside from the political aspect of it, there's always the concern that your visa won't go through or you'll have issues with it throughout your year as an intern, and programs don't want to have an empty spot/lose someone halfway through. That concern might be higher now. At the corporate practice I was at (with a large internship/residency program), we wouldn't even rank Canadian applicants from AVMA schools because of visa concerns, and that was under a different administration.

 

[Whatisthemeaningoflife?]

Thank you for your input. Yes, the main hassle has been the visa for me. For my final exam to complete the license, I have to take the practical exam in the US. I don't know what happened but my tourist visa to take the exam in the US got denied not once, not twice but thrice. So because of that, I could not complete the license part. Thus, now my option seems to be to join the MS/PhD program and complete the exam during the process. It seems so unnecessary but I guess I have no option given my circumstances.

 

[pp9]

but my tourist visa to take the exam in the US got denied not once, not twice but thrice.

And this is why most programs don't want to someone on a visa, unfortunately. It's my understanding that getting a work visa is even more difficult than a tourist visa. And I really believe the current administration will make the visa process even harder.

 

[JaynaAli]

When I was a student working in the path lab, my school chose a resident from Japan. His Visa took so long to get approved, he and his wife conceived AND birthed a child while waiting to hear when he could come. Then miraculously like a day after the department paid extra to bump his visa up in line and get processed sooner it was approved. But they were without a resident for almost a year while just waiting on paperwork to get processed. He was great though. It’s just a frustrating situation for everyone I think.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

DVM who did residency and then a PhD after here.

If you choice to do a PhD is simply to use it as a bridge before a specialty (i.e. a means to an end), you are going to have a very, very rough time. PhDs are rife with burnout and it is a totally different environment than vet school - way more self-reliance, way less structure, and you have to become very, very comfortable with repetitiveness and failure. You have to really want the actual PhD itself or you're going to be miserable. It's not like doing a 2 year MS or something to increase your competitiveness (no hate on Master's) which is hard enough as it is - PhDs in biomedical science especially can be pretty brutal. Do you have research experience? Do you know if you even like research?

The bigger question is - what do you see yourself doing? What kind of job do you want.

If you want to be a specialist veterinarian who mostly works in a clinical capacity, the PhD will be useless to your overall career goals and a waste of your time, energy, and mental health. If you see yourself as primarily or partly a research or academic vet, that is a different matter and it may be useful to you. But please don't do it as a bridge or resume booster when you aren't really passionate about it.

 

[CyroCap]

I can't relate personally to your situation and I am still in school, but I think I can offer an outside perspective. Both the opportunities seem to be things you really don't want to do and aren't relevant to you except to become a better applicant (which isn't guaranteed, and from what you said may only help you with networking), and they come with significant financial risks or years of your life doing things you don't want to do. It seems like this could have negative consequences on you personally and financially, without much of a benefit. It also seems like your biggest hurdle is the visa and licensing, and not necessarily the quality of your application (though I can't speak to that), so these opportunities might not really be necessary. In any case, the visa problems probably won't entirely go away even if you go for either of the opportunities. Maybe it would be worth it to keep practicing in your country, and then trying for the match after you get licensure. Licensure will make you eligible for more internships. Have you consulted with a lawyer who can help you with your travel visa to take your exam? Or have you asked successful match applicants from foreign non-AVMA schools for advice and about the strength of your application?

 

[Musicandhorses]

As someone who has finished a PhD and started off loving my research projects, I will tell you that if you feel equivocal and ho-hum about your project, you are likely going to have a miserable time doing the PhD. I’m not saying you might start loving the topic, but that there is a much higher likelihood that you will eventually feel uninterested because you literally eat, breathe and sleep your research project. If you aren’t excited and interested now, I’d be concerned that you will get bored or even worse, dread it. Also, it took me six years to finish because I needed a break, and I took a six month medical leave. And I was a person with good mentors and someone who loved her projects in the beginning.

Maybe the masters might be a better way? PhDs are a beast.

Also, I was a clinician when I started my PhD. I couldn’t even do relief work due to lack of time my last-ish year of PhD. I could during the first few years, but it was frowned upon but I guess I didn’t care because it made me happy to do some relief work. It’s not easy honestly.