PhD after MD - quitting job, prerequisite advice

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neurofrisco

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Hi all,
Seeking application advice or thoughts on prereqs required for recent PhD grad seeking an MD.

A bit of background: I did a PhD in Neuro straight out of undergrad (Top 10 school - 3.2 GPA). I had a productive PhD with several papers. I graduated about 6 months ago and am now a healthcare consultant making six figures but increasingly unfulfilled and borderline angry about the type of work I do. I’m a female Latina.

My PhD work was very translational, in the radiology department. Most of my thesis committee members were MD/PhD and I was able to do a few projects where I worked with patients directly.

Since I’m still relatively young (4 year PhD, so I’m 26) - I made the decision to apply to Med school this upcoming cycle. I plan on quitting my job in the next few weeks to go do a postdoc in a Neuro Lab with a new, but well-funded PI that I’ve worked with before.

Anyone else take the MD post PhD path or know of anyone that did? Do you know if the premed course requirements were as stringent? (Ex: I didn’t take a second semester of Bio with Lab).

Any other general thoughts and advice also appreciated!
 
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I graduated about 6 months ago and am now a healthcare consultant making six figures but increasingly unfulfilled and borderline angry about the type of work I do. I’m a female Latina.
Recommend fixing that ASAP. I'm already uncomfortable and I've never met you. Medical school (and, more to the point, residency) will absolutely bury you if this is your baseline.

Anyone else take the MD post PhD path or know of anyone that did? Do you know if the premed course requirements were as stringent? (Ex: I didn’t take a second semester of Bio with Lab).
Covered extensively in the past on SDN. Recommend contacting the schools you will apply to and ask them directly. The general answer is "no" to overlooking prerequisites, but two schools I applied to (PhD>postdoc>MD) excused the fact that I did not have English 102/101. I had already made up my mind about ignoring this requirement, then one school said: "if you can write a 300 page thesis, I think it's clear you can communicate in the English language".
 
Are you planning on raising your GPA and taking the MCAT? Do you have any shadowing?
Yes! Planning to enroll in a few post bac classes and extensively prepping for the MCAT. During my PhD, several of my thesis committee members were MD PhDs. I worked closely in the clinic with one of them (psychiatrist), shadowing whenever he delivered TMS to his depressed patients. My lab was in the department of radiology and I also got some unofficial shadowing experience in there too when I trained some residents one some neuroimaging analysis tools. (Not sure if that counts!) Do you recommend I get some more "official" shadowing experience in?
 
Recommend fixing that ASAP. I'm already uncomfortable and I've never met you. Medical school (and, more to the point, residency) will absolutely bury you if this is your baseline.

Covered extensively in the past on SDN. Recommend contacting the schools you will apply to and ask them directly. The general answer is "no" to overlooking prerequisites, but two schools I applied to (PhD>postdoc>MD) excused the fact that I did not have English 102/101. I had already made up my mind about ignoring this requirement, then one school said: "if you can write a 300 page thesis, I think it's clear you can communicate in the English language".


Bury me? I'm not so sure. During my PhD, I derived a significant amount of happiness from my translational research, teaching and starting a summer program for minority students to get them interested in STEM. I'm also no stranger to working long hours and no stranger to being abused by higher ups (I took a short break during my PhD to spend some time in Venture Capital and also dabbled in Entrepreneurship during my PhD). I don't mind working long hours and being abused as long as I believe in the higher purpose.

Telling Fortune 500 pharma C-suite execs what they want to hear and spending my days lining up graphics on a powerpoint page, then getting yelled at by a Harvard MBA for not using the correct font on said powerpoint is literally hell. Most of the people I work with are smart and probably had the potential to do things they believed in, but very very few are happy with their lives. I'm too young to settle for a life I hate, when I used to have a life I loved (but got seduced by the allure of $$). (Note, I'm a first generation college student, I thought making $180K as a 26 year would bring me happiness and solve all my family issues).


Lol to your English requirement! I'm hoping they'll do that with Bio 102, but will likely have no such luck 🙂
 
How do you know you have not romanticized medicine? In my experience, most MD/PhD don't give an accurate portrayal of what medicine really is. They are petty much 90% research and the rest is clinical with a research aim.

It also sounds like at one point you had happiness. Why not pursue a different career path that your PhD can provide? Developing technology aimed at helping patients has a higher purpose. Trust me, at your stage you should be thinking of medicine as a last resort.

Lastly, please tell me "Frisco" is not for San Francisco. It's just [emoji107]
 
How do you know you have not romanticized medicine? In my experience, most MD/PhD don't give an accurate portrayal of what medicine really is. They are petty much 90% research and the rest is clinical with a research aim.

It also sounds like at one point you had happiness. Why not pursue a different career path that your PhD can provide? Developing technology aimed at helping patients has a higher purpose. Trust me, at your stage you should be thinking of medicine as a last resort.

Lastly, please tell me "Frisco" is not for San Francisco. It's just [emoji107]

Totally agreed on your point of not romanticizing medicine. Given my past experiences, my gut instinct is that I'm not - but I definitely do need to take the next few weeks to reflect that I'm not romanticizing medicine just because I hate my current job.

To clarify - I don't intend on spending the majority of my career practicing. Of my 5 member thesis committee, 3 of them were MD/PhDs who ranged 90% - 65% of the time researching. As a PhD who collaborated on tons of projects with them, I saw the value of the MD both in terms of the way they approached research design, access to patient populations, ability to administer treatments (e.g., TMS/neurostimulation, deep brain stimulation via implants) and the fun they had when interacting with patients.

I've experimented with "developing technology to help patients." During grad school, I worked with Tech Transfer to license an existing patent and file an additional provisional patent for a medical device. I assembled a small team and raised a bit of funding ~$250K & applied to some SBRIs before I abandoned the project for a variety of reasons, one being the long commercialization timelines. Another company has since picked it up, but not having much luck. I found that process mostly fulfilling - but it lacked the patient contact that I wanted. Patients stopped being actual people that I'm impacting and just became large, impersonal numbers on pitch decks and sales projection spreadsheets.
 
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I’ll spare you my mansplaining about whether or not you should pursue medicine and focus on logistics. You’re clearly an accomplished person and you have enough exposure to know whether there is potentially a road to fullfillment here for you.

1) your gpa needs work. It’s very low and as it is is may get you screened out a number of places. What did your grade trend look like?
2) MCAT will be especially make or break for you given the Low gpa. Be sure to devote ample time to this and don’t take it until you’re reliably scoring high enough to get accepted despite low grades. It’s doable but the bar is higher for you than for others.
3) unsure how much the URM thing will help. It obviously will quite a bit, but I just don’t how much. It’s been too long since I’ve trolled MDApps to get a sense of how things were playing out currently.
4) as you’ve noticed already, you will want to consider reframing your reasons for leaving your current field. If I were reviewing an app like yours, I would be worried that you’re going to drop medicine too once you find out about the inherent baloney it has too. It’s a different flavor of baloney than the c suite, but baloney all the same. An app like yours is worrisome for someone who may not actually finish, so make sure your story convinced people otherwise. You’ve had less than a year outside a school environment and many will see your current feelings as just normal adjustment to the day in and day out tediousness of the real world.
5) your app also can’t have an whiff of mental illness and instability. This is everyone’s gut reaction when we see gross inconsistency in an application, and a highly successful PhD student turned consultant who pulled a 3.2 in undergrad doesn’t add up. Mental illness and substance abuse are huge problems in medical training so keep this in mind as you frame your story. There’s really not much allowance for treated and stable mental illness either; the assumption will be that the stress of training will push you into a crisis. This is a real problem and schools are getting more and more sensitive about it.

I do hope this works out for you and that you find a place in medicine or elsewhere that is fulfilling for you. You clearly have a lot to offer whatever field you end up in.
 
I’ll spare you my mansplaining about whether or not you should pursue medicine and focus on logistics. You’re clearly an accomplished person and you have enough exposure to know whether there is potentially a road to fullfillment here for you.

1) your gpa needs work. It’s very low and as it is is may get you screened out a number of places. What did your grade trend look like?
2) MCAT will be especially make or break for you given the Low gpa. Be sure to devote ample time to this and don’t take it until you’re reliably scoring high enough to get accepted despite low grades. It’s doable but the bar is higher for you than for others.
3) unsure how much the URM thing will help. It obviously will quite a bit, but I just don’t how much. It’s been too long since I’ve trolled MDApps to get a sense of how things were playing out currently.
4) as you’ve noticed already, you will want to consider reframing your reasons for leaving your current field. If I were reviewing an app like yours, I would be worried that you’re going to drop medicine too once you find out about the inherent baloney it has too. It’s a different flavor of baloney than the c suite, but baloney all the same. An app like yours is worrisome for someone who may not actually finish, so make sure your story convinced people otherwise. You’ve had less than a year outside a school environment and many will see your current feelings as just normal adjustment to the day in and day out tediousness of the real world.
5) your app also can’t have an whiff of mental illness and instability. This is everyone’s gut reaction when we see gross inconsistency in an application, and a highly successful PhD student turned consultant who pulled a 3.2 in undergrad doesn’t add up. Mental illness and substance abuse are huge problems in medical training so keep this in mind as you frame your story. There’s really not much allowance for treated and stable mental illness either; the assumption will be that the stress of training will push you into a crisis. This is a real problem and schools are getting more and more sensitive about it.

I do hope this works out for you and that you find a place in medicine or elsewhere that is fulfilling for you. You clearly have a lot to offer whatever field you end up in.
Mental illness? Having a 3.2 undergrad then going into a PhD and getting successful as a consultant sounds very normal to me. I don't think you know what you're talking about
 
I’ll spare you my mansplaining about whether or not you should pursue medicine and focus on logistics. You’re clearly an accomplished person and you have enough exposure to know whether there is potentially a road to fullfillment here for you.

1) your gpa needs work. It’s very low and as it is is may get you screened out a number of places. What did your grade trend look like?
2) MCAT will be especially make or break for you given the Low gpa. Be sure to devote ample time to this and don’t take it until you’re reliably scoring high enough to get accepted despite low grades. It’s doable but the bar is higher for you than for others.
3) unsure how much the URM thing will help. It obviously will quite a bit, but I just don’t how much. It’s been too long since I’ve trolled MDApps to get a sense of how things were playing out currently.
4) as you’ve noticed already, you will want to consider reframing your reasons for leaving your current field. If I were reviewing an app like yours, I would be worried that you’re going to drop medicine too once you find out about the inherent baloney it has too. It’s a different flavor of baloney than the c suite, but baloney all the same. An app like yours is worrisome for someone who may not actually finish, so make sure your story convinced people otherwise. You’ve had less than a year outside a school environment and many will see your current feelings as just normal adjustment to the day in and day out tediousness of the real world.
5) your app also can’t have an whiff of mental illness and instability. This is everyone’s gut reaction when we see gross inconsistency in an application, and a highly successful PhD student turned consultant who pulled a 3.2 in undergrad doesn’t add up. Mental illness and substance abuse are huge problems in medical training so keep this in mind as you frame your story. There’s really not much allowance for treated and stable mental illness either; the assumption will be that the stress of training will push you into a crisis. This is a real problem and schools are getting more and more sensitive about it.

I do hope this works out for you and that you find a place in medicine or elsewhere that is fulfilling for you. You clearly have a lot to offer whatever field you end up in.

Yes, thanks for sparing me the mansplaining 🙂 The logistical advice is SUPER helpful and exactly what I've been looking for! I do appreciate it 🙂 I agree with many of the points - especially the importance of the GPA. To answer/comment on some of your questions:

1) Agree that the GPA def needs work. My dad died first semester freshman year and I chose to go back to school, rather than take a leave of absence. My grades were pretty bad freshman year and even first semester sophomore year, but do show a nice upward trend. My physics grades senior year were less than great, as I was researching 25+ hours a week in a high profile lab (Working directly under the director of our brain institute. We still keep in touch, but, I doubt a letter from him would be useful since I'm 4.5 years removed from undergrad). I decided to quit my job in May (rather than in a few weeks) and use the first "summer session" to get some additional classes in so that my GPA doesn't screen me out. I'll be starting my 1 year post doc with an old professor once apps are in, shortly thereafter.

2) Completely agree that MCAT will make or break my apps. I've been compiling best practices and resources for studying from some of the other SDN threads and will devote my nights, early morning and weekends 100% to studying to make the May 19 test date.

3) Yeah - I have no insight here. I've chatted with 4 URM friends, 2 of which did MPH then MD and two of which did PhD then MD, but I don't seem to be seeing any trends.

4) Framing my story in a way that doesn't seem schizophrenic is probably going to be what I need the most work on. I've even considered hiring a med school consultant for this purpose.

I studied Neuroscience (minors in Bio and Spanish) in undergrad where I did research with a high profile PI before matriculating directly to a top Neuroscience PhD program, where I published 9 papers in 4 years in very translational research, won a fellowship and founded summer internship program for first generation URMs (now institutionalized in its third year of operation). My story becomes crazy/messy in the second year of my program: I invented/patented the medical device and founded the startup. I effectively lived a double life for 1.5 years, continuing my research and also pushing my young company along. My company did achieve some milestones (funding, pitch competitions, press) before I stopped working on it for reasons mentioned above. Then, my PI let me take the summer off to spend time doing a fellowship at a Biotech Venture Capital firm, which was an interesting experience. The next year, I graduated and started healthcare consulting for big pharma. Bigger plot twist: A few months ago, I used my signing bonus and money left over from my venture to start a small business in the developmental disability space in my hometown that my aunt-in-law, who has a degree in child development, runs with the help of younger sister who is finishing law school. We have a small amount of revenue, but nothing to phone home about. (I can't deny my interest and strokes of luck so far in business, but have no desire to make it my full time job). Still trying to figure out a way to tell my story (possibly even omitting parts of the story that are just too incongruous).

5) Consulting at MBB (McKinsey, Bain, BCG) isn't that uncommon of a path for PhDs at certain programs. But nonetheless, I hear ya.
 
Yes, thanks for sparing me the mansplaining 🙂 The logistical advice is SUPER helpful and exactly what I've been looking for! I do appreciate it 🙂 I agree with many of the points - especially the importance of the GPA. To answer/comment on some of your questions:

1) Agree that the GPA def needs work. My dad died first semester freshman year and I chose to go back to school, rather than take a leave of absence. My grades were pretty bad freshman year and even first semester sophomore year, but do show a nice upward trend. My physics grades senior year were less than great, as I was researching 25+ hours a week in a high profile lab (Working directly under the director of our brain institute. We still keep in touch, but, I doubt a letter from him would be useful since I'm 4.5 years removed from undergrad). I decided to quit my job in May (rather than in a few weeks) and use the first "summer session" to get some additional classes in so that my GPA doesn't screen me out. I'll be starting my 1 year post doc with an old professor once apps are in, shortly thereafter.

2) Completely agree that MCAT will make or break my apps. I've been compiling best practices and resources for studying from some of the other SDN threads and will devote my nights, early morning and weekends 100% to studying to make the May 19 test date.

3) Yeah - I have no insight here. I've chatted with 4 URM friends, 2 of which did MPH then MD and two of which did PhD then MD, but I don't seem to be seeing any trends.

4) Framing my story in a way that doesn't seem schizophrenic is probably going to be what I need the most work on. I've even considered hiring a med school consultant for this purpose.

I studied Neuroscience (minors in Bio and Spanish) in undergrad where I did research with a high profile PI before matriculating directly to a top Neuroscience PhD program, where I published 9 papers in 4 years in very translational research, won a fellowship and founded summer internship program for first generation URMs (now institutionalized in its third year of operation). My story becomes crazy/messy in the second year of my program: I invented/patented the medical device and founded the startup. I effectively lived a double life for 1.5 years, continuing my research and also pushing my young company along. My company did achieve some milestones (funding, pitch competitions, press) before I stopped working on it for reasons mentioned above. Then, my PI let me take the summer off to spend time doing a fellowship at a Biotech Venture Capital firm, which was an interesting experience. The next year, I graduated and started healthcare consulting for big pharma. Bigger plot twist: A few months ago, I used my signing bonus and money left over from my venture to start a small business in the developmental disability space in my hometown that my aunt-in-law, who has a degree in child development, runs with the help of younger sister who is finishing law school. We have a small amount of revenue, but nothing to phone home about. (I can't deny my interest and strokes of luck so far in business, but have no desire to make it my full time job). Still trying to figure out a way to tell my story (possibly even omitting parts of the story that are just too incongruous).

5) Consulting at MBB (McKinsey, Bain, BCG) isn't that uncommon of a path for PhDs at certain programs. But nonetheless, I hear ya.

I can think of a couple possible ways to frame the story:

1) You could discuss your clinical experiences early in your PhD and how these really moved you and ignited a desire to to take on a more clinical role and pursue your MD. Tell a couple stories to this effect. Then, you could frame the other accomplishments as things that were exciting and distracted you from medicine, then talk about how the money was too good to pass up so you decided to try the consulting world and see if you could be happy, but you knew almost immediately that this was not to be your life's work. All the while, that old siren song of serving the suffering was still there, so you gave up the money and went back to a post-doc and applied to medical school in hopes of finding true fulfillment in your life.

I think this because it makes it look like medicine has been a constant for some time and the rest was a distraction and entirely understandable. It makes your decision to do medicine appear almost entirely altruistic as you give up great money for almost a decade of relative poverty. I would try a narrative style fleshing out the stories you reference above, peppering the whole thing with the idea that your true goal was to become a physician.

As I write this, I think some variation of this is probably the strongest approach. Framing the consulting job as the decision point will probably read too impulsive, but the story of a young accomplished woman with a passion for service who wanted to try her hand at the big business/big money job only to find it lacking followed by a recommittment to becoming a physician is the sort of thing medical schools love. I can envision lines about making more money than many physicians yet feeling your heart wasn't in it and that while it was exciting, some things are more important than money and nothing has ever felt as right as when you were helping take care of people who were hurting. Yeah, I think that can be a very compelling story.
 
Hi all,
Seeking application advice or thoughts on prereqs required for recent PhD grad seeking an MD.

A bit of background: I did a PhD in Neuro straight out of undergrad (Top 10 school - 3.2 GPA). I had a productive PhD with several papers. I graduated about 6 months ago and am now a healthcare consultant making six figures but increasingly unfulfilled and borderline angry about the type of work I do. I’m a female Latina.

My PhD work was very translational, in the radiology department. Most of my thesis committee members were MD/PhD and I was able to do a few projects where I worked with patients directly.

Since I’m still relatively young (4 year PhD, so I’m 26) - I made the decision to apply to Med school this upcoming cycle. I plan on quitting my job in the next few weeks to go do a postdoc in a Neuro Lab with a new, but well-funded PI that I’ve worked with before.

Anyone else take the MD post PhD path or know of anyone that did? Do you know if the premed course requirements were as stringent? (Ex: I didn’t take a second semester of Bio with Lab).

Any other general thoughts and advice also appreciated!

Have you considered teaching at the secondary level? The pay sucks but you will not starve and will be appreciated by parents, admin, and the community you are serving. This is my second year teaching, and I've received a good number of awards and grants. I am somewhat sociable and more of a people's person, so the transition was pretty smooth for me. I am glad I do not have to deal with a lot of needy, helicopter parents (maybe about 3 per semester). There are a lot of incentives for being a teacher nowadays, you will have your good days and bad days but the legacy you are making will definitely impact the community you're serving.

A buddy of mine enlisted Navy as an electronic tech after he completed his MD and Ph.D. training from a school in Texas because he was unhappy and absolutely miserable. This summer, I met a chemistry professor (associate-tenured) at a workshop is in the transition of becoming an HS teacher.
 
There's nothing wrong with being unfulfilled by your present work and seeking a new career path ... I don't know why people should be uncomfortable with someone who's asked to work below their intellectual potential complaining about it. I've not been in neurofrisco's situation, so the only advice I can offer is to find the most interesting work that pays enough to eat and live. And definitely stay on the path to med school if it interests you.
 
I can think of a couple possible ways to frame the story:

1) You could discuss your clinical experiences early in your PhD and how these really moved you and ignited a desire to to take on a more clinical role and pursue your MD. Tell a couple stories to this effect. Then, you could frame the other accomplishments as things that were exciting and distracted you from medicine, then talk about how the money was too good to pass up so you decided to try the consulting world and see if you could be happy, but you knew almost immediately that this was not to be your life's work. All the while, that old siren song of serving the suffering was still there, so you gave up the money and went back to a post-doc and applied to medical school in hopes of finding true fulfillment in your life.

I think this because it makes it look like medicine has been a constant for some time and the rest was a distraction and entirely understandable. It makes your decision to do medicine appear almost entirely altruistic as you give up great money for almost a decade of relative poverty. I would try a narrative style fleshing out the stories you reference above, peppering the whole thing with the idea that your true goal was to become a physician.

As I write this, I think some variation of this is probably the strongest approach. Framing the consulting job as the decision point will probably read too impulsive, but the story of a young accomplished woman with a passion for service who wanted to try her hand at the big business/big money job only to find it lacking followed by a recommittment to becoming a physician is the sort of thing medical schools love. I can envision lines about making more money than many physicians yet feeling your heart wasn't in it and that while it was exciting, some things are more important than money and nothing has ever felt as right as when you were helping take care of people who were hurting. Yeah, I think that can be a very compelling story.
Wow. You are amazing. THANK YOU. Will run this idea by the med school consultant I'm chatting with tomorrow, who specializes in non trad applicants and let you know her thoughts.
 
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Have you considered teaching at the secondary level? The pay sucks but you will not starve and will be appreciated by parents, admin, and the community you are serving. This is my second year teaching, and I've received a good number of awards and grants. I am somewhat sociable and more of a people's person, so the transition was pretty smooth for me. I am glad I do not have to deal with a lot of needy, helicopter parents (maybe about 3 per semester). There are a lot of incentives for being a teacher nowadays, you will have your good days and bad days but the legacy you are making will definitely impact the community you're serving.

A buddy of mine enlisted Navy as an electronic tech after he completed his MD and Ph.D. training from a school in Texas because he was unhappy and absolutely miserable. This summer, I met a chemistry professor (associate-tenured) at a workshop is in the transition of becoming an HS teacher.

Yes - I did think about teaching at the secondary level and I absolutely love teaching. And quite the common path - several students from my alma mater have gone on to teach at private high schools or small liberal arts teaching-only professorships. The issue is that if I devoted my career 100% to teaching - I would miss the research majorly!
 
Yes - I did think about teaching at the secondary level and I absolutely love teaching. And quite the common path - several students from my alma mater have gone on to teach at private high schools or small liberal arts teaching-only professorships. The issue is that if I devoted my career 100% to teaching - I would miss the research majorly!

There is a good number of NIH, NSF sponsored summer research opportunities for teachers (~6 weeks long). I really love the flexibility of being a teacher and the lifestyle, a lot of incentives for public school teachers, we have tenure and you will want that, trust me.

You don't get that if you teach at a private school, and most PUI schools will make you teach 5+ classes per semester now which is a bit extreme, especially you take into account for other administrative types of work that you HAVE to do, participate in student recruitment events, fundraisers etc.

I have enjoyed research a lot and was pretty productive as well, but I did not like the part that you have to secure a multi-million dollar grant in order to be considered for tenure at an R01 school, that's just way too stressful.

I've wanted a well-balanced simple life.
 
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Hi all,
Seeking application advice or thoughts on prereqs required for recent PhD grad seeking an MD.

A bit of background: I did a PhD in Neuro straight out of undergrad (Top 10 school - 3.2 GPA). I had a productive PhD with several papers. I graduated about 6 months ago and am now a healthcare consultant making six figures but increasingly unfulfilled and borderline angry about the type of work I do. I’m a female Latina.

My PhD work was very translational, in the radiology department. Most of my thesis committee members were MD/PhD and I was able to do a few projects where I worked with patients directly.

Since I’m still relatively young (4 year PhD, so I’m 26) - I made the decision to apply to Med school this upcoming cycle. I plan on quitting my job in the next few weeks to go do a postdoc in a Neuro Lab with a new, but well-funded PI that I’ve worked with before.

Anyone else take the MD post PhD path or know of anyone that did? Do you know if the premed course requirements were as stringent? (Ex: I didn’t take a second semester of Bio with Lab).

Any other general thoughts and advice also appreciated!
Hi, I was just wondering what you ended up doing. I am in a similar path myself.
 
I'm applying to med school next year as I'm finishing up my PhD in Informatics. I also felt this comment VERY deeply:

"Telling Fortune 500 pharma C-suite execs what they want to hear and spending my days lining up graphics on a powerpoint page, then getting yelled at by a Harvard MBA for not using the correct font on said powerpoint is literally hell"

So while my salary is currently in the same range as the OP, it ends up NOT being worth it when you know there's something else you'd rather do or as in my case, have wanted to do since I was about 5 years old.