PhD/JD

[JockNerd]

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Hi all. The other thread made me think about my school's combined PhD/JD program.

What advantages does the double degree offer? What sort of work does the JD require? I know we had one prof in psych here who had a PhD/JD and just went off to a very lucrative faculty position.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I spoke with someone a year ago who graduated from a school I was looking into who had a PhD/JD. She ended up just working in a correctional facility and said that her JD was pretty much useless.

Although I guess any kind of degree is what you make it. My supervisor just told me the other day that he had a student who graduated with her PhD in Clinical Psych in a forensic lab and ended up working in a bank. That's sure to strike fear in some hearts.

 

[JockNerd]

Thanks for the info, Raynee! 🙂

Although I guess any kind of degree is what you make it. My supervisor just told me the other day that he had a student who graduated with her PhD in Clinical Psych in a forensic lab and ended up working in a bank. That's sure to strike fear in some hearts.

The person who checked my bags at the airport when I was going home for christmas asked me what I was in school for, and I told her I was in psych, she said "OH! I have a degree in that!"

She said she had a degree in neuropsych.

I think there was probably something else going on there, though....

 

[solumanculver]

Hey JockNerd,
What would be your intention with the dual degree? It seems like the obvious career options would be forensic psychology and mental health related litigation.

I kind of think that a law degree wouldn't really help a career in forensic psychology... It seems like functioning as an expert witness doesn't really require any legal knowledge.

Mental health related litigation seems like a career that a dual degree could really make a difference in.

In any case, if you're not too old, it might be cool to go to law school. If I had time I might want to do it as well...

 

[JockNerd]

Hey JockNerd,
What would be your intention with the dual degree? It seems like the obvious career options would be forensic psychology and mental health related litigation.

I kind of think that a law degree wouldn't really help a career in forensic psychology... It seems like functioning as an expert witness doesn't really require any legal knowledge.

Mental health related litigation seems like a career that a dual degree could really make a difference in.

In any case, if you're not too old, it might be cool to go to law school. If I had time I might want to do it as well...

Yeah, it was forensics. Specifically sex offender consultation and expert witness work. I know the JD isn't *required* for that, but I was more wondering if it would be significantly advantageous. I'm going to start my exposure to that area next year, hopefully, so I'm more just curious about what difference it might make.

I AM young 🙂. The dual degree at my grad school doesn't look like it would be very difficult. But, I'm not interested in doing any amount of extra work for no discernible benefit.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I AM young 🙂. The dual degree at my grad school doesn't look like it would be very difficult. But, I'm not interested in doing any amount of extra work for no discernible benefit.

You're not allowed to have more degrees than me. Therefore if you do I'll have to do it and I don't wanna do it so you're not allowed.

/story.

 

[solumanculver]

I AM young 🙂. The dual degree at my grad school doesn't look like it would be very difficult. But, I'm not interested in doing any amount of extra work for no discernible benefit.

Well, law school is rumored to be pretty hard... I bet it would make your life a good deal more difficult.

It's usually a three year degree, but I suppose it's shortened as part of a dual degree. Would it be two years? Two and a half?

These aren't funded programs, right? So it would probably cost you quite a bit without an increase in income from your forensics practice.

Well, to be honest, I think that the dual degree would be impractical for a forensics career. And if you want to start your career as quickly and efficiently as possible, then it would probably be an unnecessary waste of time and money.

On the other hand, if you're young and interested in the intersection of law and mental illness, taking this dual degree could be the best thing you've ever done... from a personal standpoint if not from an economic one. And if you developed an interest in mental health advocacy in law school you could also get a job in policy or litigation.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You can make BANK as a forensic consultant / expert witness.....but you'd have to build your practice just like anyone else, though the JD would give you a leg up. I think it makes more sense for someone who already has one degree or the other. I've seen JD--> Ph.D. instead of the other way around, because people could afford to live more comfortably and not have a huge change in lifestyle.

YMMV....I thought about this route for about 2 minutes, until I talked to a friend about the use of the law degree, and he kept telling me that ranking of the school (much like business) can make a BIG difference, so unless you go to a higher-tier school, it may not be worth as much if you want to be more on the law side of things. On the clinical side, it may not matter as much.

-t

 

[JockNerd]

YMMV....I thought about this route for about 2 minutes, until I talked to a friend about the use of the law degree, and he kept telling me that ranking of the school (much like business) can make a BIG difference, so unless you go to a higher-tier school, it may not be worth as much if you want to be more on the law side of things. On the clinical side, it may not matter as much.

Yeah, I knew that from a friend in law and checked it out. Tier 1. What sort of "bank" are we talking? I'm primarily interested in academia and research, but my research intersects very cleanly with certain areas of forensics, so it seems like a reasonable thing to do on the side. I'm not interested in working exclusively as a forensic consultant/EW, though, so I don't know if I'd need the JD leg-up.

SMC: The JD would be covered by my tuition waiver. 3 years.

Some people on the board have JDs, no? Comments? I'd appreciate it.

 

[positivepsych]

Totally not worth the time. Even the big-time forensic psychologists and psychiatrists don't have JDs. I guess any extra degree looks good and so you think it gives you a leg up, but since no one else has it or needs it, its just unnecessary.

 

[Ollie123]

Its actually something I've considered though for VASTLY different reasons than seem to be the focus here. I came into college planning to go into law, so its obviously an interest of mine😉

Whoever it was who said rankings matter for law - yes, yes they do. Even the difference between #1 and #2 is quite meaningful when on the job market, let alone the difference between #1 and #100.

Forensics is most definitely not for me (maayyyybe civil stuff, definitely no interest in working with the criminal population). My interest would be in the public policy/medical ethics side of psychology - an area that I think a JD would contribute a considerable amount and open a huge number of doors in government positions that would likely either be locked, or at least "stuck" for a psychology PhD. I haven't completely eliminated the possibility at this point, but I'm less inclined to go this route than before as my interests become more neuroscience-y. If I could get a stipend for it, I'd be more inclined to pursue it, but if not, the debt would probably force me into a law school professorship, which would severely restrict my ability to research some topics of interest for me.

For forensic work, it sounds potentially helpful, but not necessary. It sounds like it might help you get your foot in the door for forensic work, but if there are other ways to do it, those might be better options than an additional 3 years of school. In my opinion anyways🙂

 

[solumanculver]

Yeah, I knew that from a friend in law and checked it out. Tier 1. What sort of "bank" are we talking? I'm primarily interested in academia and research, but my research intersects very cleanly with certain areas of forensics, so it seems like a reasonable thing to do on the side. I'm not interested in working exclusively as a forensic consultant/EW, though, so I don't know if I'd need the JD leg-up.

SMC: The JD would be covered by my tuition waiver. 3 years.

Some people on the board have JDs, no? Comments? I'd appreciate it.

Hey,
If it's free, and you're young, then I think you should do it. What the hell... Why worry about those three years of your forensics career that you'll be delayed, if your career is going to last the rest of your life anyway? Why rush the rest of your life?

In any case, I'm not an expert at the legal profession, but I think that the ranking of the law school matters in the sense that big firms hire graduates from big law schools. Since you obviously don't want to join a big firm... I don't see why ranking would matter.

As far as I can tell, you can get a free JD if you want it, spend a few more years in school, and vastly expand your career opportunities... Sounds awesome to me, but then again, I like school. If you're completely career-oriented, then forget about it, but if you're just curious and want to experiment with things while you're still young... then I would do it.

 

[Thrak]

For what it's worth...

My wife's finishing up her last year in law school at a top three school. I've sat in on some of her classes, done some of her casebook reading, discussed her classes with some of her classmates. Law school isn't easy, but it's not nuclear physics, either. Depending on your interests, some of the classes will be difficult and enjoyable (for me, things like Constitutional Law, Crim, civil procedure), some will be disgustingly boring (corporations, tax law). It's a lot of reading (waaaay more than psychology), and a lot of difficult reading (reading psych journal articles may as well be reading Psychology Today compared to casebook work or reading SCOTUS proceedings).

Also, some of my wife's classmates, after going through law school, have decided they want PhDs in psychology (most have focused on social, rather than forensic or clinical).

Rank is everything when it comes to law schools. BigLaw in places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, LA, DC are paying first year associates approximately 175k base salary, with bonuses anywhere from 30k to 150-200k. The bigger the bonus, the more hours you're expected to put in. Generally, it's anywhere from a 50 to 80 hour a week expectation. If you're looking for a firm that has a specialty in psychology, it's outside my limited area of knowledge... sorry!

From time to time, I think about getting a JD. I'd love law school (depending on where it was), but I'd hate being a lawyer. From what I understand, gender also matters. More women seem to dislike the law school environment than than men, and have more of an issue with the more socratic-method style classes. Also, "Blue Book" formatting is far different from APA-style. Not a critical issue, but drove me nuts in the beginning 😀

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A number of my friends and colleagues have gone through law school and they seem to universally agree that you go to the highest rank school you can get into (unless you get into a program that has a speciality area, even though it may be lower overall). They described it as a grind, as there was large amount of information, but it wasn't that they couldn't learn it, it just took A LOT of reading and reviewing. Oh, and the bar was universally a crappy but necessary experience.

-t

 

[deleted176373]

My wife hit me the other day with, I want to quit my job and go to law school. I think she can get into a top tier program, but we'll see what she gets on the LSAT. I suspect she'll be above 160 but by how much is anyone's guess.

Mark

 

[JockNerd]

Ok, thanks guys. Ultimately I think that for what I want to do, the JD is unnecessary... when I had initially looked up some expert witness/forensic consultants, I hit upon a few with PhD/JDs and assumed it was the norm. Upon further investigation and consistent with what RD and PosPsy wrote, it seems like I happened to stumble across some of the few that had the dual degree; most who do what I'm interested in just have the PhD.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Ok, thanks guys. Ultimately I think that for what I want to do, the JD is unnecessary... when I had initially looked up some expert witness/forensic consultants, I hit upon a few with PhD/JDs and assumed it was the norm. Upon further investigation and consistent with what RD and PosPsy wrote, it seems like I happened to stumble across some of the few that had the dual degree; most who do what I'm interested in just have the PhD.

Yeah, since it's kind of my "thing" I know quite a few expert witnesses and none of them have a JD.

 

[coloradocutter]

As a practicing attorney that has worked with more than a few expert witnesses (I practice biotechnology patent law), I think the only way that a JD would get you mileage is if you had practiced. Let's say you were a prosecutor for a few years and then went back and got your PhD at some point, that would probably be marketable. Most attorneys are snobby and would be drawn to someone that speaks their language, but in the end the person must be no less credentialed than the next guy/gal. Having said that, I don't believe in getting degrees to look more attractive - get the degree that you have to have to do what you want. And for you that sounds like the PhD only.

Law can be lucrative and is much shorter. If you go to a top tier state school and our in-state, it can also be relatively painless, but if you want to make serious money in law, you must go to a top tier school, must graduate in the top 15% of your class, or otherwise be lucky. There are alot of lawyers out there feeling betrayed by the system that promised them riches and they are making $60k a year tops while their colleagues at large national firms have starting salaries of $175k, which is my firm's for example. It's ridiculous.

 

[joshie6891]

I just thought I would add my 2 cents. I once had a lecturer who was the head of the area's mental health hospital. His background was a PhD in clinical psychology and was often called to court to act as an expert witness. After some time in doing this, he decided to go to law school for his JD.

The way he explained it was something like 'I was sick of getting my pants pulled down by a bunch of lawyers who thought they knew everything.' It makes sense, I suppose. If you're in court often, it probably would help to understand the intricacies of how the whole system works, and what the opposition can and can't do.