PhD/PsyD PhD level psychotherapist?

[InfoNerd101]

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Is there such thing as a PhD level psychotherapist? (not psychologist!)

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Sure, a masters level psychotherapist who has earned a non-license able doctorate. Happens all the time.

 

[ClinicalABA]

There are likely people who call themselves this. Whether or not the do so legally depends on the jurisdiction. Some states may have restrictions on the use of the term psychotherapist. Some may restrict the use of a degree designation not related to or beyond what is required for a specific license. Best bet is for you to consult regulations and board decisions/position statements in the specific jurisdiction.

 

[InfoNerd101]

Sure, a masters level psychotherapist who has earned a non-license able doctorate. Happens all the time.

What is a non licensable doctorate?

 

[erg923]

What is a non licensable doctorate?

History, English, Basket weaving,

 

[AcronymAllergy]

History, English, Basket weaving,

Or, of course, even things like Social Work, various Education degrees, general and experimental Psychology subfields, etc.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Or, of course, even things like Social Work, various Education degrees, general and experimental Psychology subfields, etc.

There are several "post maters" and "pre licensed" programs at places like the Chicago School that will give masters level practitioners a doctorate in psychology in two years, but you practice on your masters level license.

 

[InfoNerd101]

There are several "post maters" and "pre licensed" programs at places like the Chicago School that will give masters level practitioners a doctorate in psychology in two years, but you practice on your masters level license.

So r they considered a psychologist then or a psychotherapist?

 

[deleted343839]

Psychotherapist is not a protected title in the US (though in Canada and parts of Europe it is). It's not a specific professional title that requires a specific course of training. You can have a PhD in aerospace engineering and provide psychotherapy if you so choose.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

So r they considered a psychologist then or a psychotherapist?

Not a psychologist. They are a masters level psychotherapist.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Psychotherapist is not a protected title in the US (though in Canada and parts of Europe it is). It's not a specific professional title that requires a specific course of training. You can have a PhD in aerospace engineering and provide psychotherapy if you so choose.

In the CA evidence code, the term is reserved for those who have a license to practice (mft, LCSW, doctorate) or trainees under supervision.

 

[deleted343839]

In the CA evidence code, the term is reserved for those who have a license to practice (mft, LCSW, doctorate) or trainees under supervision.

Oh, I stand corrected! I don't think this is true in most states, though.

 

[InfoNerd101]

Psychotherapist is not a protected title in the US (though in Canada and parts of Europe it is). It's not a specific professional title that requires a specific course of training. You can have a PhD in aerospace engineering and provide psychotherapy if you so choose.

But you need a license to practice in The US. So how is it not protected?

 

[InfoNerd101]

Not a psychologist. They are a masters level psychotherapist.

I meant psychotherapists with a PhD?

I guess I didn't word my question right because people don't seem to be getting what I'm asking but what I want to know is, is there psychotherapy PhD's? So psychotherapists that have doctorates in specifically psychotherapy and are not psychologists. Is that kind of what counseling psychology is?

 

[erg923]

I meant psychotherapists with a PhD?

I guess I didn't word my question right because people don't seem to be getting what I'm asking but what I want to know is, is there psychotherapy PhD's? So psychotherapists that have doctorates in specifically psychotherapy and are not psychologists. Is that kind of what counseling psychology is?

there is no such thing as a phd in "psychotherapy"...if that's what you're asking?

 

[InfoNerd101]

there is no such thing as a phd in "psychotherapy"...if that's what you're asking?

Yes, that is what I was asking. Because I read that psychology and psychotherapy are two seperate entities and so it made me wonder, if there's a masters level psychotherapist where would they advance to if they decide to go get a PhD?

 

[Justanothergrad]

Yes, that is what I was asking. Because I read that psychology and psychotherapy are two seperate entities and so it made me wonder, if there's a masters level psychotherapist where would they advance to if they decide to go get a PhD?

Think of it like this.

Football is a sport [Psychologists do psychotherapy aka therapy, aka counseling, etc.]
Not all sports are football (unless you live in Alabama). [not all psychotherapy is done by psychologists]

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes, that is what I was asking. Because I read that psychology and psychotherapy are two seperate entities and so it made me wonder, if there's a masters level psychotherapist where would they advance to if they decide to go get a PhD?

There are no degrees, either at the doctoral or masters level, in psychotherapy of which I'm aware. Masters-level psychotherapists tend to be social workers (i.e., masters in social work), counselors (e.g., masters in counseling), or marital and family therapists (masters in MFT). Nurse practitioners are also, depending on their state license, allowed to perform psychotherapy, although whether or not they're adequately trained in it can be a point of debate.

Psychotherapy is a tool that psychologists use. One of many. Just as it's one of many tools a social worker or counselor may use.

 

[InfoNerd101]

There are no degrees, either at the doctoral or masters level, in psychotherapy of which I'm aware. Masters-level psychotherapists tend to be social workers (i.e., masters in social work), counselors (e.g., masters in counseling), or marital and family therapists (masters in MFT). Nurse practitioners are also, depending on their state license, allowed to perform psychotherapy, although whether or not they're adequately trained in it can be a point of debate.

Psychotherapy is a tool that psychologists use. One of many. Just as it's one of many tools a social worker or counselor may use.

OK perfect, so that then makes me. Lead to my next question, is there such thing as a PhD level MFT or counselor?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

OK perfect, so that then makes me. Lead to my next question, is there such thing as a PhD level MFT or counselor?

There are Ph.D.'s in Social Work I know. MFT, not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.

However, even with a doctorate, the individual is still technically licensed at the masters level; there is no separate/additional license or added scope of clinical privilege by having a doctorate.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You really need to be careful and know the laws and rules of you specific jurisdiction before you start messing around with licenses, terms, and degrees. Rules can be highly specific and not obvious. For example, in my state (MA), if you have a doctorate in psychology, you cannot practice under the title "psychotherapist" if you aren't licensed as a psychologist. From the relevant policy bulletin of the MA Board of Registration of Psychologists:

Persons with a Doctorate in Psychology Practicing Independently as Psychotherapists. Unlicensed individuals who have a doctoral degree in Psychology from a Designated Doctoral Program*, who practice independently under the title of "psychotherapist," are considered by the Board of Registration to be practicing Psychology without a license. The Board regards such action as an attempt to circumvent the Psychology licensing law and subject to discipline.

Link to full document:
http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/.../policy-bulletin-regarding-licensure-hsp.html

 

[deleted343839]

I guess I didn't word my question right because people don't seem to be getting what I'm asking but what I want to know is, is there psychotherapy PhD's? So psychotherapists that have doctorates in specifically psychotherapy and are not psychologists. Is that kind of what counseling psychology is?

No. A doctorate in counseling psychology is a doctorate in counseling psychology. There is no such thing as a doctorate in psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy is not a discipline. It is a service that people provide. They learn it in the course of their professional training. Those people might be psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, counselors, psychiatric nurse practitioners, etc. The term "psychotherapist" just refers to someone who provides that service.

I find the term much more commonly used by people who are not psychologists or physicians. Sometimes people who are licensed at the master's level will obtain a doctorate in their discipline or another discipline. This does not grant them any additional or special privileges, but it allows them to be called "doctor" for whatever that's worth to them. Apparently for some it's worth a lot.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Think of it like this.

Football is a sport [Psychologists do psychotherapy aka therapy, aka counseling, etc.]
Not all sports are football (unless you live in Alabama). [not all psychotherapy is done by psychologists]

It's the same in Texas, except it's also a religion. Football that is, because apparently psychotherapy in Texas has now been defined by the court as "just talking to someone about some stuff".

 

[InfoNerd101]

No. A doctorate in counseling psychology is a doctorate in counseling psychology. There is no such thing as a doctorate in psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy is not a discipline. It is a service that people provide. They learn it in the course of their professional training. Those people might be psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, counselors, psychiatric nurse practitioners, etc. The term "psychotherapist" just refers to someone who provides that service.

I find the term much more commonly used by people who are not psychologists or physicians. Sometimes people who are licensed at the master's level will obtain a doctorate in their discipline or another discipline. This does not grant them any additional or special privileges, but it allows them to be called "doctor" for whatever that's worth to them. Apparently for some it's worth a lot.

But you can be licensed in psychotherapy in and of itself so it a is a discipline in its own right. What do u think LPC's are?

 

[deleted343839]

But you can be licensed in psychotherapy in and of itself so it a is a discipline in its own right. What do u think LPC's are?

I'm not licensed in psychotherapy. I'm licensed in psychology. LPCs are licensed in counseling. Social workers are licensed in social work. Psychiatrists are licensed in medicine. Nurses are licensed in nursing.

In Canada and parts of Europe you can be licensed in psychotherapy "in and of itself," but it doesn't work that way in the US.

Surely the distinction between education (degree) and licensure has been clarified by now.

 

[ClinicalABA]

But you can be licensed in psychotherapy in and of itself so it a is a discipline in its own right. What do u think LPC's are?

Nope- first of, not all states have LPCs. In some jurisdictions, that masters level clinician is called an MHC or LMHC. I'm no expert in all states, but I've never seen licensure as a "psychotherapist." Again, there is no one answer to questions about licensure, areas of practice, titles, etc.- it varies from state to state.

 

[Harry3990]

reading this thread is giving me a headache... It seems like you are getting overly caught up with the specific term "psychotherapy." This is a broad term generally referring to talk-therapy provided by a professional in the mental health field (e.g., LPC, LCSW, LMFT, psychiatric nurse practitioner, or licensed psychologist). It is synonymous with "counseling," at least in the context of mental health service provision. These words say very little, however, about the specific treatment interventions or theoretical orientations that are being used in treatment, and these words say NOTHING about the degree, educational background, or qualifications of the provider. That's what the license itself is for. As has been mentioned already, people are not licensed in psychotherapy in the U.S.

is there such thing as a PhD level MFT or counselor?

Yes you can get a PhD in counseling or social work (usually MFT providers, in my experience, might get PhDs in general counseling or education, there are probably some PhDs specific to MFT though I would imagine). What other people are trying to make clear is that even if you go on to get a PhD in these fields, your license (which you presumably already obtained after getting your masters, such as LPC/LCSW/LMFT) does not change in any way or get "upgraded" to a doctoral-level license. Psychology is different because most states require a PhD to become licensed as a psychologist in the first place, meaning that some consider it by nature a "doctoral-level license"... because it requires a doctorate to obtain.

Hope that helps clear things up for you some. But again, it seems like you might just be getting overly caught up on the term psychotherapy, which, again, is a vague umbrella term for any type of talk-therapy provided in a mental health context. By extension, a psychotherapist is any type of person who provides such a service, regardless of license or lack thereof. Also note that people have already discussed that this varies by state as to whether it is a protected professional term.

 

[InfoNerd101]

Nope- first of, not all states have LPCs. In some jurisdictions, that masters level clinician is called an MHC or LMHC. I'm no expert in all states, but I've never seen licensure as a "psychotherapist." Again, there is no one answer to questions about licensure, areas of practice, titles, etc.- it varies from state to state.

OK, but an LPC or MHC their sole job is psychotherapy, they domt provide other services like a social worker, nurse, psychologist, etc. So they kind of are a psychotherapist in and of itself

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Psychotherapist = Personal Trainer

Both aren't license eligible. Both may offer a "certificate", but they are both still generic terms. Many different trainings may fit, but the training isn't necessarily interchangeable.

Learn about each area of study and don't get hung up on jargon and terminology. It really isn't that complex.

 

[Harry3990]

OK, but an LPC or MHC their sole job is psychotherapy, they domt provide other services like a social worker, nurse, psychologist, etc. So they kind of are a psychotherapist in and of itself

This is one way that a LPC or LMHC could choose to describe themselves professionally. But they could also choose to use a more specific, appropriate word that provides more information about their educational background and approach to psychotherapy...like their actual professional title. Of it they wanted to remain vague about it, they could simply refer to themselves as a psychotherapist. It really doesn't matter if you're talking about a colloquial, non-professional context.

I think the main important point here is that psychotherapist, like T4C just said above, is not a licensable practice professionally. It might be a protected term in some states (i.e., you can't say you're a psychotherapist without one of those licenses), but this is not the same thing as someone being licensed in psychotherapy. Psychotherapy/counseling is a vague, everyday way of describing one of the services that are provided in the context of mental health treatment.