PhD or MD?

drlove4 · Apr 16, 2011

Hi everyone,

I'm just finishing up my junior year of undergrad and have become confused on what educational path to take. Although I really do enjoy research, my career goal is to become a clinician in private practice. I have had my heart set on a PhD program, but have started to revert back to my desire of being a psychiatrist. I love psychopharmacology, but was initially scared away from attending medical school (never taken physics or calculus in HS). I aced anatomy and chemistry this year, but I'm not sure if I could handle years of hard sciences because my heart is psychology. Seeing admissions stats for clinical and counseling programs can depress me, and sometimes I think my chances might actually be better at a MD/DO school. My first two years weren't great, but I'll probably graduate with around a 3.4. I will have completed 2 internships and (hopefully) completed 3 of my own research projects and a year of helping in a lab. I also have great LOR and volunteering. so my main questions are:

(1) should I still set my sights on a PhD or even PsyD? and if so, what clinical/counseling PhD programs are more clinically oriented and would accept my level of credentials?

(2) would it be wise to wrap up the 5-7 classes I need and attempt the psychiatry? This would mean summer classes and an unpleasant senior year. I primarily want to see patients so 4 years of non-psych rigor seems absurd for me, but being able to prescribe would be a HUGE plus, call me vein but money is important to me (that being said, I'm aware a PhD wouldn't rake in the dough. Also, please no tips concerning masters programs).

Any tips you would have will be greatly appreciated. I'm just really worried about my future, and this forum is always the best place to seek advice. Thank you for your time!

somedude14 · Apr 16, 2011

drlove4 said:
Hi everyone,

I'm just finishing up my junior year of undergrad and have become confused on what educational path to take. Although I really do enjoy research, my career goal is to become a clinician in private practice. I have had my heart set on a PhD program, but have started to revert back to my desire of being a psychiatrist. I love psychopharmacology, but was initially scared away from attending medical school (never taken physics or calculus in HS). I aced anatomy and chemistry this year, but I'm not sure if I could handle years of hard sciences because my heart is psychology. Seeing admissions stats for clinical and counseling programs can depress me, and sometimes I think my chances might actually be better at a MD/DO school. My first two years weren't great, but I'll probably graduate with around a 3.4. I will have completed 2 internships and (hopefully) completed 3 of my own research projects and a year of helping in a lab. I also have great LOR and volunteering. so my main questions are:

(1) should I still set my sights on a PhD or even PsyD? and if so, what clinical/counseling PhD programs are more clinically oriented and would accept my level of credentials?

(2) would it be wise to wrap up the 5-7 classes I need and attempt the psychiatry? This would mean summer classes and an unpleasant senior year. I primarily want to see patients so 4 years of non-psych rigor seems absurd for me, but being able to prescribe would be a HUGE plus, call me vein but money is important to me (that being said, I'm aware a PhD wouldn't rake in the dough. Also, please no tips concerning masters programs).

Any tips you would have will be greatly appreciated. I'm just really worried about my future, and this forum is always the best place to seek advice. Thank you for your time!

I'm going to be blunt:

Your credentials seem pretty average for funded PhD programs and your lack of focus will make it quite difficult to get accepted.

Therefore, if you really want to do clinical psychology you will probably have to pay 100k + in debt. Since money is important to you, this will be a large problem (it is for anyone though).

Maybe take some time off, up your credentials and more importantly figure out what you want to do. If money is what drives you then taking less interesting classes to become a physician may be worth it.

psychattempt · Apr 16, 2011

roubs · Apr 16, 2011

Get this book. Look for Ph.D. programs in the middle of the research<->clinical spectrum that have decent funding and are middle tier with respect to competitiveness. There are some there. Get a lot of As your senior year and maybe spend some time figuring out what research area you could get excited about. Do really well on the GRE. You will have a decent shot.

AgapeBlue · Apr 17, 2011

drlove4 said:
My first two years weren't great, but I'll probably graduate with around a 3.4. I will have completed 2 internships and (hopefully) completed 3 of my own research projects and a year of helping in a lab. I also have great LOR and volunteering. so my main questions are:

Have you presented any of your research at a conference? Try to at least get a presentation done at a regional or national conference if at all possible.

medium rare · Apr 17, 2011

drlove4 said:
Hi everyone,

I'm just finishing up my junior year of undergrad and have become confused on what educational path to take. Although I really do enjoy research, my career goal is to become a clinician in private practice. I have had my heart set on a PhD program, but have started to revert back to my desire of being a psychiatrist. I love psychopharmacology, but was initially scared away from attending medical school (never taken physics or calculus in HS). I aced anatomy and chemistry this year, but I'm not sure if I could handle years of hard sciences because my heart is psychology. Seeing admissions stats for clinical and counseling programs can depress me, and sometimes I think my chances might actually be better at a MD/DO school. My first two years weren't great, but I'll probably graduate with around a 3.4. I will have completed 2 internships and (hopefully) completed 3 of my own research projects and a year of helping in a lab. I also have great LOR and volunteering. so my main questions are:

(1) should I still set my sights on a PhD or even PsyD? and if so, what clinical/counseling PhD programs are more clinically oriented and would accept my level of credentials?

(2) would it be wise to wrap up the 5-7 classes I need and attempt the psychiatry? This would mean summer classes and an unpleasant senior year. I primarily want to see patients so 4 years of non-psych rigor seems absurd for me, but being able to prescribe would be a HUGE plus, call me vein but money is important to me (that being said, I'm aware a PhD wouldn't rake in the dough. Also, please no tips concerning masters programs).

Any tips you would have will be greatly appreciated. I'm just really worried about my future, and this forum is always the best place to seek advice. Thank you for your time!

Go to medical school.

ReInventor · Apr 17, 2011

medium rare said:
Go to medical school.

Is there a specific reason you suggest this? Just curious. I've also found myself experiencing the MD or PhD dilemma. I'm leaning heavily towards MD.

AcronymAllergy · Apr 17, 2011

ReInventor said:
Is there a specific reason you suggest this? Just curious. I've also found myself experiencing the MD or PhD dilemma. I'm leaning heavily towards MD.

In general, there are quite a few individuals disillusioned with the clinical psych field for a variety of reasons, including decreasing pay, increasing master's-level encroachment, the whole professional school issue (whatever your stance), the lackluster efforts of our largest national professional organization, etc.

Personally, I don't (yet) regret my decision to attend a clinical psych doctoral program over med school, as I enjoy what I do much more than that which I see and hear nearby IM, EM, and psych residents being saddled with. However, I can't debate that the average income potential (especially starting out), employability, and arguably prestige associated with an MD (any specialty) generally outpaces that of a PhD in clinical psych.

I would say that if you're POSITIVE you have little to no interest in any area of medical school other than psych, then the consensus would seem to be medical school may not be for you. Conversely, if you're POSITIVE that you only want to conduct clinical work and have no interest in research, supervision, and program administration and evaluation, I'd make the argument that a doctorate in clinical psych may not be for you, and would instead suggest either medical school or, if psychotherapy is your key interest, a master's in counseling psych or social work.

Neuropsych2be · Apr 17, 2011

AcronymAllergy said:
In general, there are quite a few individuals disillusioned with the clinical psych field for a variety of reasons, including decreasing pay, increasing master's-level encroachment, the whole professional school issue (whatever your stance), the lackluster efforts of our largest national professional organization, etc.

Personally, I don't (yet) regret my decision to attend a clinical psych doctoral program over med school, as I enjoy what I do much more than that which I see and hear nearby IM, EM, and psych residents being saddled with. However, I can't debate that the average income potential (especially starting out), employability, and arguably prestige associated with an MD (any specialty) generally outpaces that of a PhD in clinical psych.

I would say that if you're POSITIVE you have little to no interest in any area of medical school other than psych, then the consensus would seem to be medical school may not be for you. Conversely, if you're POSITIVE that you only want to conduct clinical work and have no interest in research, supervision, and program administration and evaluation, I'd make the argument that a doctorate in clinical psych may not be for you, and would instead suggest either medical school or, if psychotherapy is your key interest, a master's in counseling psych or social work.

The issue for me with med school and residency is massive sleep deprivation, dealing with body fluids, dissecting dead bodies, patients dying despite your best efforts, dealing with fungal and bacterial infections (shudder), delivering babies (double shudder), years of working at slave wages during residency, years of working 80-140 hours a week for slave wages, (below minimum wage if you look at your hourly wages), relationship and marriage destroying emotional stress, loss of professional status to insurance companies, medical care by cookbook guidelines destroying professional autonomy, encroachment by mid-levels etc ...

So many physicians I have met and worked with tell me "If I had known then what I know now I would have .... fill in blank." Remember you will go into massive unimaginable debt. You will delay a getting anything remotely approaching a professional salary for a decade. Now the Republicans are threatening to dismantle Medicare and Medicaid. Then when you graduate you will face competition by nurse practitioners whose professional autonomy will continue to grow. By the time you graduate, the face of healthcare may change beyond recognition.

Before you make a decision, shadow a physician, shadow lots of physicians. Have one wake you up unexpectedly at 2:30 in the morning and go to a hospital where a young patient they are caring for is dying and nothing can save them. Even if you go into psychiatry, your training as a physician will involve all of these things repeatedly. Talk of models and interests is all very well, all very intellectual, and all very safe emotionally. But ask yourself if you want to experience what physician training really involves like making complex life and death clinical decisions after working 20 hours straight without any sleep whatsoever and then have the patient die. Do you have the stamina for this??

cara susanna · Apr 17, 2011

Man, I used to think that the safest professions were nurses, lawyers and doctors. I found out lawyer and nurse weren't, so then I thought doctor. Now apparently doctor isn't, either!

Everyone should just go into computer science or engineering. 😛

AcronymAllergy · Apr 17, 2011

Neuropsych2be said:
The issue for me with med school and residency is massive sleep deprivation, dealing with body fluids, dissecting dead bodies, patients dying despite your best efforts, dealing with fungal and bacterial infections (shudder), delivering babies (double shudder), years of working at slave wages during residency, years of working 80-140 hours a week for slave wages, (below minimum wage if you look at your hourly wages), relationship and marriage destroying emotional stress, loss of professional status to insurance companies, medical care by cookbook guidelines destroying professional autonomy, encroachment by mid-levels etc ...

So many physicians I have met and worked with tell me "If I had known then what I know now I would have .... fill in blank." Remember you will go into massive unimaginable debt. You will delay a getting anything remotely approaching a professional salary for a decade. Now the Republicans are threatening to dismantle Medicare and Medicaid. Then when you graduate you will face competition by nurse practitioners whose professional autonomy will continue to grow. By the time you graduate, the face of healthcare may change beyond recognition.

Before you make a decision, shadow a physician, shadow lots of physicians. Have one wake you up unexpectedly at 2:30 in the morning and go to a hospital where a young patient they are caring for is dying and nothing can save them. Even if you go into psychiatry, your training as a physician will involve all of these things repeatedly. Talk of models and interests is all very well, all very intellectual, and all very safe emotionally. But ask yourself if you want to experience what physician training really involves like making complex life and death clinical decisions after working 20 hours straight without any sleep whatsoever and then have the patient die. Do you have the stamina for this??

All very excellent points, and I'd second the recommendation to shadow a physician (or any professional working in a field you're interested in) before deciding it's a career path you want to take. I will say one thing, though--while residents do get paid much less than full-fledged, licensed, independently-practicing physicians, their salaries put ours (grad students') to shame. However, as you've said, med students are also often saddled with more debt and a lower standard of living.

Quality of life is definitely one of the major factors I've heard as being a reason why people chose clinical psych over med school.

drlove4 · Apr 17, 2011

thanks for the feedback! all great points to think about.

aequitasveritas · Apr 19, 2011

I would go to med school and then become a psychoanalyst in addition afterward. That's just me.

PhD or MD?

drlove4

Full Member

somedude14

Full Member

psychattempt

New Member

roubs

Full Member

AgapeBlue

part-time Ninja

medium rare

Clinical Psychologist & Psych NP

ReInventor

Burnt toast?

AcronymAllergy

Neuropsychologist

Neuropsych2be

Full Member

cara susanna

Full Member

AcronymAllergy

Neuropsychologist

drlove4

Full Member

aequitasveritas

PhD

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