Philosophical Friday

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FutureDrB

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So I had a conversation with a fellow student earlier who has taken General Chemistry three times now and is unable to pass. Her IQ is over 130 (don't ask how I know that), yet she insists that she is unable to grasp it.

So my question is...
Do y'all think that anyone can learn anything? Taking into account of course they have the mental capacity to do so.

I tend to think that they can, but most people just give up too soon or don't go about learning whatever it is they are trying to learn the correct way. I just don't see how a girl with an IQ that high cannot learn something.

Just curious what y'all think...
 
No I don't. And I say that from experience. I have been attending college for 8 years, mainly due to indecision for my career. I have taken all sorts of classes. I cannot learn accounting. I just can't. I took a class, got an A- on it, but can't tell you what a debit and credit is in the business sense. It also has to do with interest. I have no interest in that kind of thing, so I cannot focus enough to really understand the material.
 
I dunno, I'm undecided on this. I feel like everyone has the capacity to learn something new if they apply themselves and have a genuine interest in the subject. Like you said, some people give up too easily, or find excuses. I've always been a lifelong learner, meaning I'm continually learning new things and improving my knowledge, even if it's for stupid things. I just like to soak all that up like a sponge.

However, my mentality is not the questioning type. There's the accepters and the questioners (ya im making this up). Accepters just accept facts without really questioning why it is the way it is, or going beyond into a deeper understanding. Questioners do just this.
 
I think that you can learn anything if you try hard enough and have the capacity for it. However your grasp of the material might not be of the highest quality and you might not enjoy it at all.
And your friend not being able to grasp general chemistry is kinda silly. You aren't even learning chemistry in that class, it's just algebra and conversions. She likely approaching it incorrectly or she has a defeatist attitude.
 
I noticed in a couple of responses y'all mentioned "interest" as a factor in learning something. I'm just playing devils advocate here, but just because you aren't interested in something doesn't mean you CAN'T learn it. Again, not trying to argue, just stating... 🙂
 
of course, but having an interest in something will definitely facilitate the learning process because you WANT to learn it, and will work hard/do what it takes to learn it. Being forced to learn something that you don't want to isn't a great way to learn. You may "learn it" but more than likely will forget if you don't use it on a consistent basis. Then what good is it?
 
I noticed in a couple of responses y'all mentioned "interest" as a factor in learning something. I'm just playing devils advocate here, but just because you aren't interested in something doesn't mean you CAN'T learn it. Again, not trying to argue, just stating... 🙂

I would say that overall interest is somewhat correlated with ability to proficiently learn material.
 
As a philosophy minor, I hate to be "that guy"... but it depends on what you mean by "learn". 😛

Someone can learn something for an exam, and then forget all the material. So yes, I think anyone can learn anything. But what's more important is understanding. Understanding involves retaining information and how it fits into a big picture. It's the idea of bringing concepts together to visualize how things are integrated with each other.

So can people learn anything? Yes... but people cannot understand everything. And like Wily said... a huge part of understanding has to do with WANTING to understand. You have to WANT to understand individual concepts and bring them together for that big picture... and we do this when we are interested.

I learned microeconomics in high school... supply/demand curves, inflation, etc. I did pretty well in the class too. But am I able to understand the concepts behind these ideas and integrate them with each other to create a solid, big picture? Nope... why? Because I don't WANT to! :laugh: It's just not interesting to me.
 
I shouldn't be a biology major. I suck at science; obviously I've overcome that with a lot of hard work, but there are other things that come more easily to me... like foreign languages, history, English, and geography. Verbal was my best section on the MCAT. Yet I am able to and indeed have learned a lot about biology and chemistry, and I really enjoy. In fact there is a sense of accomplishment that comes with understanding something that does not come naturally.

So I would say that the answer to the op's question in yes. One exception though, I have known a few people who just can't learn a language well... they'll get proficient and gain the ability to communicate, but not well. Even then, however, I suspect it does have to do with interest.

Interest though, I think is different than want or desire. We may really really want to learn something at a conscious level, even though we lack enough interest subconsciously to really keep our attention focused on that thing long enough to really absorb it.
 
I think the answer is both yes and no. I think the conventional way certain subjects are taught can preclude someone, regardless of how good they are at a subject from ever fully understanding it. It simply does not make sense to the person and no amount of diligent study will change that. I do think, though, that a different approach to then entire subject (though perhaps so different that no one has yet thought of how to actually accomplish this approach) may open it right up.

Using myself as an example, I really excel at academics. Math included. But something about calculus made absolutely no damn sense to me. I spent hours in class, i went to student tutors. I finally hired a private tutor and he exasperatedly told me that I "just do not get it" and that I cannot comprehend calculus and its something that you cant memorize as numbers change each time.

what I eventually did was go back to the calculus proofs. Those giganto page long proofs where 18 things cancel each other out and finally become smaller mathematical facts once simplified. I understood (to some degree) those monster proofs. I understood the logic of them and I could manipulate them. But I could not mentally handle the smaller condensed versions. So i created a method of approximation of the correct answer (ironic given calculus is math of approximation and im approximating the calculus answer) from the giganto proofs. It took me ages to do a problem, but I went from a student with a <50 average to a B+ student from the half way point of the class. I probably got 95 or better on every test from the second half on.

Of course the issue was that regardless of how well my approximation worked in getting the right answer and making lotsof hard to decipher math work to confuse my professor... i still didn't know calculus. Because of this physics was rendered impossible. Physics, at least at my institution, is 10% algebra and 90% calculus based. The amount of time it would take to do multuple calculus problems per physics question rendered the class effectively impossible. No matter how much I understood physics.... and i really did. I could explain everything theoretically perfectly. I could not do the math of it because i could not wrap my head around how calculus works.

I still cant. I've tried to reapproach basic calculus in some time off between college and medical school. with 2 semesters of physics and the MCAT behind me, I still couldn't make head from tail on the most simple of calculus problems from my introductory calculus class. Yet I can write out a page full of math and approximate the right answer even if I dont know why and it takes 10x longer for me to do it rather than everyone else.
 
So I had a conversation with a fellow student earlier who has taken General Chemistry three times now and is unable to pass.
How many students in her class also failed? Tell her to retake it at a different school.
Even for the same class, at my university, one can be much more difficult than the other if taught by a 'difficult' professor...
 
How many students in her class also failed? Tell her to retake it at a different school.
Even for the same class, at my university, one can be much more difficult than the other if taught by a 'difficult' professor...

I don't think that will fix anything. Most chemistry classes are pretty much made so that at least 80% pass with at least a C. But seriously, you don't even learn chemistry in gen chem 1! You learn conversions and applied algebra...
 
I think the answer is both yes and no. I think the conventional way certain subjects are taught can preclude someone, regardless of how good they are at a subject from ever fully understanding it. It simply does not make sense to the person and no amount of diligent study will change that. I do think, though, that a different approach to then entire subject (though perhaps so different that no one has yet thought of how to actually accomplish this approach) may open it right up.

Using myself as an example, I really excel at academics. Math included. But something about calculus made absolutely no damn sense to me. I spent hours in class, i went to student tutors. I finally hired a private tutor and he exasperatedly told me that I "just do not get it" and that I cannot comprehend calculus and its something that you cant memorize as numbers change each time.

what I eventually did was go back to the calculus proofs. Those giganto page long proofs where 18 things cancel each other out and finally become smaller mathematical facts once simplified. I understood (to some degree) those monster proofs. I understood the logic of them and I could manipulate them. But I could not mentally handle the smaller condensed versions. So i created a method of approximation of the correct answer (ironic given calculus is math of approximation and im approximating the calculus answer) from the giganto proofs. It took me ages to do a problem, but I went from a student with a <50 average to a B+ student from the half way point of the class. I probably got 95 or better on every test from the second half on.

Of course the issue was that regardless of how well my approximation worked in getting the right answer and making lotsof hard to decipher math work to confuse my professor... i still didn't know calculus. Because of this physics was rendered impossible. Physics, at least at my institution, is 10% algebra and 90% calculus based. The amount of time it would take to do multuple calculus problems per physics question rendered the class effectively impossible. No matter how much I understood physics.... and i really did. I could explain everything theoretically perfectly. I could not do the math of it because i could not wrap my head around how calculus works.

I still cant. I've tried to reapproach basic calculus in some time off between college and medical school. with 2 semesters of physics and the MCAT behind me, I still couldn't make head from tail on the most simple of calculus problems from my introductory calculus class. Yet I can write out a page full of math and approximate the right answer even if I dont know why and it takes 10x longer for me to do it rather than everyone else.

I agree with you on your post. Physics and math concepts are those that are challenging to understand for certain students. I tutor many high school students where half the students have trouble with one very specific section in pre-calc which is geometric series. No matter how much you try sometimes you just are not able to think what the (x,n) formula for the series is going to be. Also, I have noticed no matter how hard some students try to LEARN these concepts they cannot succeed in it.

On another note, I agree that you can learn most other subjects with some hard work but a weak foundation in your early years can limit you on how much time it may take.
 
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