Physics as part of PhD pgrm?

[RasslinGod]

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hi ive been toying aroudn w/ the idea of doing a MD pHD program in physics. I'd really love to do things in biophysics. I dont know what area yet. (Maybe looking at ergetics of biomolecules or understand the physics of biomolecular machines??)

But the problem is at my school theres only like 4 ppl who do biophsyics research, and im worried that when i get to applying to MD Phd programs, i cant get in. I currently am working ina condensed matter research lab. This is my first physics research position. So its kind of a starting pt for me. I HOPE that oen day i gain enough experience and have these professors accept me into their biophysics lab.

Is this shortsighted? If i just do condensed matter, shoudl i even bother applying to a MD/PHD program? After all my research has nothign to do w/ biology.

 

[jsydc]

If you ware applying to a program with a fixed timeline, doing a straight physics PhD may be very difficult within 3 or 4 years. Make sure you are aware of this, and if it's an MD-PhD program where the department of the PhD asks you to meet the same requirements as everyone else be prepared for killer prelims that test all your physics knowledge, and tend to have a very high failure rate for interdisciplinary scientists in particular. (At least that is the case at McGill, most people take 6 months just to study for the prelims and about half pass on their first try.)
Sorry for the rant, but just make sure that a PhD in physics won't pose too many barriers to your successful completion. This is why I intend to do my PhD through biomedical engineering instead, as the departmental requirements or more feasible for an MD-PhD at my school, even though I'll be doing work that could equally be called Physics.

 

[Neuronix]

Hmmm... 4:35AM, lots of typos... Were you drunk when you posted that?

Well to the point, there are a number of programs around the country that would probably suit you. I would say to apply to Biophysics programs where available (Penn, WashU, Harvard are good examples), but where not available Bioengineering should suit you just fine. I'm in a Biophysics program myself, and the very physics oriented students can take as much math and straight physics as they would like to. Don't worry that there's a small number of students. At times I think there's only been a total of 3 MD/PhD Biophysics students getting PhDs here in this second largest MD/PhD program. It doesn't mean the program isn't open to you as an applicant. It's not a common pathway, but it's not discriminated against as far as I'm aware.

It's very rare to see a straight Physics PhD and you honestly wouldn't want to. Physics PhDs have to do a lot of teaching, a ton of requirements, and PIs who aren't going to understand you want to get out quickly. That's okay though, the types of things you are looking to study will be in Biophysics, bioengineering, or even cell and molecular biology anyways.

 

[RasslinGod]

thanks for the feedback. you guys raised some issues which did not even cross my mind.

my biggest worry is that supposing i do want to do a MD/PhD prgrm, and i want to do it in biophysics, BUT i havent gotten any biophysics research experience. Only in Condensed matter research. WOuld that be a huge/impossible barrier to overcome in applying? SHould i even bother applying? Afterall i say i want do soemthing, but nvr had any experience in it

im curious, how closely does the research have to be about medicine and biology? lol, coudl i do particle physics or cosmology in the MD/PhD pgrm?

 

[BozoSparky]

thanks for the feedback. you guys raised some issues which did not even cross my mind.

my biggest worry is that supposing i do want to do a MD/PhD prgrm, and i want to do it in biophysics, BUT i havent gotten any biophysics research experience. Only in Condensed matter research. WOuld that be a huge/impossible barrier to overcome in applying? SHould i even bother applying? Afterall i say i want do soemthing, but nvr had any experience in it

im curious, how closely does the research have to be about medicine and biology? lol, coudl i do particle physics or cosmology in the MD/PhD pgrm?

Hey, go talk to your professors about it. You have 4 biophysics people in the department, right? If you have done research in condensed matter, that's great! Why not start a new project in biophysics? Do you have time? Just ask...you sound enthusiastic and that's what counts in science. I'm sure they have some problem for you to work on! Then you'll have a better view of the field and where you want to fit in...

 

[Gotti]

I did biophysics, even waited for a crystal to grow very slowly while all my classmates published a bunch of random artifacts and noisy data in several papers. But no, I thought physics was so "cool." Now I don't know how I will sell this crap except maybe radiation oncology or radiology, which I found I don't really want to do. While my friends in neuroscience and immunology are looking at neurosurg or dermatology. So I have to stop you before you become as bitter as me and have to get on forums like this for peer support.

 

[Picklesali]

I did biophysics, even waited for a crystal to grow very slowly while all my classmates published a bunch of random artifacts and noisy data in several papers. But no, I thought physics was so "cool." Now I don't know how I will sell this crap except maybe radiation oncology or radiology, which I found I don't really want to do. While my friends in neuroscience and immunology are looking at neurosurg or dermatology. So I have to stop you before you become as bitter as me and have to get on forums like this for peer support.

Note to self: physics is not cool

Noted

 

[Gotti]

Sorry about my bitter reply up there. Btw, this is how biophysicists talk; all of us are so bitter about the number of pubs other fields get that we slam their biological or genetic assays as random noise or "flawed". So I've picked it up too.

With all that said, I would have regretted my whole life if I hadn't done biophysics, particularly crystallography. But you are young and before you get the physics bug, you should quit. I found some MSTP programs didn't like this type of esoteric research no matter how much you quote the party rhetoric of structure-based drug design. It probably didn't help, at best neutral. Many interviewers will not know what you are talking about. But actually, this may have helped me at the school I finally got into because nobody could really question me about how little I actually knew, so I got lucky and flew under the radar.

 

[Neuronix]

Sorry about my bitter reply up there. Btw, this is how biophysicists talk; all of us are so bitter about the number of pubs other fields get that we slam their biological or genetic assays as random noise or "flawed". So I've picked it up too.

I'm in Biophysics, but on the imaging side. My data is noisy and I've had it called artifact 😀 You shouldn't be sorry... I'm glad we have your perspective.

With all that said, I would have regretted my whole life if I hadn't done biophysics, particularly crystallography.

Ugh crystallography... I don't have to tell you how risky crystallography is for MD/PhD students. They heavily counsel our students to stay away from crystal projects for their thesis and I don't blame them. I think even the PhD students are often steered away from risky crystal projects.

The thing I was going to bring up about your previous post though is... A lot of research is really hard to relate to a future residency program. I mean sure crystallography is esoteric, but isn't a lot of basic science? I guess you can make an argument that staining leads to pathology, but what does tissue culture/cell biology have to do with medicine? Maybe path again, but what does it really have to do with the practice of internal medicine or pediatrics? So I'm not sure I would worry about selling what you did to PDs... I think most MD/PhDs have that problem.

 

[Gotti]

I agree that its hard to predict what your interest will be in medicine and how it matches your research. But a couple of guys did cholesterol research and they have an "in" with Cardiology and GI and have been offered guaranteed cardiology and GI fellowships out of medical school. Another guy did immunology and has been guaranteed Derm. Another guy did neuroscience and is being recruited by neurosurgery. At the very least, they worked on certifiable well known human disease and not an obscure pathway and can talk about that in any interview.

Most physics stuff will be very obscure and probably won't work, like a crystal either forms or not, there is no middle ground. Now imaging tumors and other such biological assays, you can always report some result or report your best result out of ten (I know I've gotten off-topic with my bitterness again and will shut up now).

 

[gbwillner]

hi ive been toying aroudn w/ the idea of doing a MD pHD program in physics. I'd really love to do things in biophysics. I dont know what area yet. (Maybe looking at ergetics of biomolecules or understand the physics of biomolecular machines??)

But the problem is at my school theres only like 4 ppl who do biophsyics research, and im worried that when i get to applying to MD Phd programs, i cant get in. I currently am working ina condensed matter research lab. This is my first physics research position. So its kind of a starting pt for me. I HOPE that oen day i gain enough experience and have these professors accept me into their biophysics lab.

Is this shortsighted? If i just do condensed matter, shoudl i even bother applying to a MD/PHD program? After all my research has nothign to do w/ biology.

You can do a straight-up Physics PhD at UCLA/Cal tech.

 

[Maxprime]

Imaging is a great bridge between physics & bio - if you are helping people do studies you will get publications while you work on your fancy idea. Or at least, that's the dream . . . 🙂

 

[pseudoknot]

You can do a straight-up Physics PhD at UCLA/Cal tech.

Oh man, I really don't know how well that would fly. Physics is probably the most brutal, grad-student-abusing department at Caltech and I doubt they would give any quarter to an MSTP student. On the other hand, it's a great place for imaging and structural biology.

 

[Neuronix]

Oh man, I really don't know how well that would fly. Physics is probably the most brutal, grad-student-abusing department at Caltech and I doubt they would give any quarter to an MSTP student. On the other hand, it's a great place for imaging and structural biology.

This is exactly why I recommend against doing PhDs in basic science departments like Physics or Math. You can very likely work in a physics oriented lab, as long as it has some relation to Biology. Most graduate programs will have no problem with this and you can take Physics classes as your electives if you so desire. It's then up to the PI if they want to sponsor you, but something can often be worked out.

I speak from experience on this. I'm in Biophysics and I have seen several MD/PhD students express a strong interest in being in the Physics department or working in a Physics lab. Physics and its PIs put up a lot of resistance to this and this would put a much longer graduation timeline on MD/PhD students. Students usually, wisely, opt for the sorts of things I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

I want people to be clear on this... Generally the reason why a student or applicant is not allowed to do their PhD in X (whether that's some sort of engineering, social science, or hard science) is not the MD/PhD program. It's usually the PhD department. That's not just true here.

 

[Maxprime]

I plan on having one of my advisers being from the physics department (doing something along the lines of neuroimaging). I may also work with someone in the comp sci department - but my PI and my lab will still be a bio lab.

I agree with neuronix - doing a full-fledged PhD in something like math or physics would be an absolute nightmare - it would take you a ridiculously long time.

Remember rule #1 for finishing a graduate program quickly:
Do something that no one else understands but sounds cool enough to warrant a PhD. 🙂

 

[gbwillner]

I plan on having one of my advisers being from the physics department (doing something along the lines of neuroimaging). I may also work with someone in the comp sci department - but my PI and my lab will still be a bio lab.

I agree with neuronix - doing a full-fledged PhD in something like math or physics would be an absolute nightmare - it would take you a ridiculously long time.

Remember rule #1 for finishing a graduate program quickly:
Do something that no one else understands but sounds cool enough to warrant a PhD. 🙂

I thought the #1 rule was "don't suck".

 

[vector07]

I know here at washU there are at least 4 faculty members in clinical or biomedical departments that have appointments in our physics department (one of them--a cardiologist--got his PhD under the mentorship of the esteemed Richard Feynman!) There are at least 2 students on the pure physics PhD track as well.

After all my research has nothign to do w/ biology.

One of the students doing a straight physics phd did his undergrad work on particle deposition in a viscous fluid. He's 2 and a half years into his PhD and will probably graduate within the year!