Post-Bacc for Neurology

[MobyShandy]

Hi all,

I understand that post-bacc is one of the most discussed topics in this subforum, and I have been and will be reading through others' posts, but I'd like to describe my own particular situation too to see if I can get any personalized advice.

I graduated a year ago with a BS in Psychology, a Biology minor, and a great deal of Neuroscience coursework. I wasn't entirely sure of my goals at that point, but in school and since school I have determined that I am primarily interested in "applied neuroscience," which is to say clinical practice or applied research in something neuro-oriented, as opposed to basic research or pure psychotherapy or behavioral health work. My main thought for some time has been to seek schooling and accreditation as a Neuropsychologist, and my present background is fairly strong for pursuing that, but the idea of becoming a Neurologist of some sort has taken root, which would require some catching up on premed requirements.

My cumulative GPA was only 3.2 or 3.3 or so, but my subject GPA was around 3.6, as was my GPA in my last 2 years of college, in which I took the majority of my more difficult Biology and Neuroscience coursework. I was irresponsible in my freshman and sophomore years, and my hope is that if I can show further improvement in GPA above the 3.6 area in premed coursework (chemistry is my biggest lack currently) I may have some running chance of admission, especially if I have the opportunity to retake introductory bio courses which I did worse in than later, more difficult courses due to my immaturity at that point.

But I am struggling to find consistent and reliable information in regards to post-bacc programs etc.; I cannot seem to find a program in my area, and further, I frequently have to sift through post-bacc's for pre-health/pre-med that are essentially master's programs geared towards students improving their extant undergraduate premed background rather than diving into premed for the first time. I am also not entirely sure of what makes for a good post-bacc program, although med school admission rates when provided seem to be a good indicator.

Outside of post-bacc, would it look bad to independently take courses at a community college, or even online? It seems to be the most accessible option, but I worry about it being viewed as unrigorous, not to mention that I would be missing out on mentorship opportunities.

Also, aside from accumulating premed coursework one way or another, what else can I do to improve my chances? I've already accumulated about a year of work with patient populations, and am now working at a clinical research group where I have exposure to neuropsychologists and neurologists and patients with neurological impairments. I know that I also need to try to shadow neurologists of different subspecialties, both to iron out my specific goals and to show medical schools that I have some idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.

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[Bonne Nuit]

Hi all,

I understand that post-bacc is one of the most discussed topics in this subforum, and I have been and will be reading through others' posts, but I'd like to describe my own particular situation too to see if I can get any personalized advice.

I graduated a year ago with a BS in Psychology, a Biology minor, and a great deal of Neuroscience coursework. I wasn't entirely sure of my goals at that point, but in school and since school I have determined that I am primarily interested in "applied neuroscience," which is to say clinical practice or applied research in something neuro-oriented, as opposed to basic research or pure psychotherapy or behavioral health work. My main thought for some time has been to seek schooling and accreditation as a Neuropsychologist, and my present background is fairly strong for pursuing that, but the idea of becoming a Neurologist of some sort has taken root, which would require some catching up on premed requirements.

My cumulative GPA was only 3.2 or 3.3 or so, but my subject GPA was around 3.6, as was my GPA in my last 2 years of college, in which I took the majority of my more difficult Biology and Neuroscience coursework. I was irresponsible in my freshman and sophomore years, and my hope is that if I can show further improvement in GPA above the 3.6 area in premed coursework (chemistry is my biggest lack currently) I may have some running chance of admission, especially if I have the opportunity to retake introductory bio courses which I did worse in than later, more difficult courses due to my immaturity at that point.

But I am struggling to find consistent and reliable information in regards to post-bacc programs etc.; I cannot seem to find a program in my area, and further, I frequently have to sift through post-bacc's for pre-health/pre-med that are essentially master's programs geared towards students improving their extant undergraduate premed background rather than diving into premed for the first time. I am also not entirely sure of what makes for a good post-bacc program, although med school admission rates when provided seem to be a good indicator.

Outside of post-bacc, would it look bad to independently take courses at a community college, or even online? It seems to be the most accessible option, but I worry about it being viewed as unrigorous, not to mention that I would be missing out on mentorship opportunities.

Also, aside from accumulating premed coursework one way or another, what else can I do to improve my chances? I've already accumulated about a year of work with patient populations, and am now working at a clinical research group where I have exposure to neuropsychologists and neurologists and patients with neurological impairments. I know that I also need to try to shadow neurologists of different subspecialties, both to iron out my specific goals and to show medical schools that I have some idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.

First things first. Becoming a neurologist means 4 years of medical school, followed by 4 years of additional training. Moreover, gaining admission to medical school will require you to focus on different areas of medicine, not just neurology. Reading your story, my first question would be "OK, what if this person goes through 4 years of medical school and the postgraduate neurology training doesn't work out? What would they do then?" Are you willing to explore other areas of medicine?

You don't need to do a formal post-bac program; you can enroll as a post-bac student at a local university and take (or retake) only the classes you need for medical school. This is sometimes referred to as a DIY post-bac. I'd recommend a DIY post-bac if you're only missing a few prerequisites.

Do not take online courses; these are not acceptable at many medical schools. CC coursework is more of a gamble. Some medical schools frown on CC prerequisites, some accept them if you've taken advanced coursework in the same discipline at a 4-year institution, some don't care. Your safest bet is to take all prereqs at a 4 year institution if you can manage it.

I need some more information to better assist you:

- Why do you want to be a physician? Note that I'm not asking "why neuroscience?", I'm asking you why you're seeking MD or DO training.
- What biology/biochemistry/physics/chemistry classes have you taken so far? What grades did you receive in them?
- What nonclinical community service do you have?

 

[MobyShandy]

First things first. Becoming a neurologist means 4 years of medical school, followed by 4 years of additional training. Moreover, gaining admission to medical school will require you to focus on different areas of medicine, not just neurology. Reading your story, my first question would be "OK, what if this person goes through 4 years of medical school and the postgraduate neurology training doesn't work out? What would they do then?" Are you willing to explore other areas of medicine?

You don't need to do a formal post-bac program; you can enroll as a post-bac student at a local university and take (or retake) only the classes you need for medical school. This is sometimes referred to as a DIY post-bac. I'd recommend a DIY post-bac if you're only missing a fewprerequisites.

Do not take online courses; these are not acceptable at many medical schools. CC coursework is more of a gamble. Some medical schools frown on CC prerequisites, some accept them if you've taken advanced coursework in the same discipline at a 4-year institution, some don't care. Your safest bet is to take all prereqs at a 4 year institution if you can manage it.

I need some more information to better assist you:

- Why do you want to be a physician? Note that I'm not asking "why neuroscience?", I'm asking you why you're seeking MD or DO training.
- What biology/biochemistry/physics/chemistry classes have you taken so far? What grades did you receive in them?
- What nonclinical community service do you have?

I am extremely open to dipping my toes into really any medical subdiscipline, and my interests may change as I'm exposed to different areas of medicine if I am admitted, but I suppose that my current (uninformed, naive) interests in terms of longterm career practice are relatively narrow: neurology, internal medicine, family medicine, preventative medicine. Within neurology, the fields of behavioral neurology, epileptology, and sleep medicine are of particular interest to me. Neurosurgery would appeal if I found that I was talented enough and I was supported in pursuing it, but I have no active expectation of either of those being the case; other than neurosurgery, all of the subdisciplines I've commented on pay relatively little and are, to my understanding, relatively uncompetitive. The salary issue isn't particularly significant to me (remember, I was previously considering working as a psychologist) and the relative uncompetitiveness of admission to neurology residencies is reassuring, especially since medical school itself also has low attrition.

The main thing I'm concerned about right now is even being admitted to medical school.

A DIY post-bacc sounds like the most realistic option, especially if I were trying to do courses piecemeal while working, but I have a lot to catch up on. I'm entirely missing physics, and I only had one chemistry (which I did poorly in due bad decisions in sophomore year), so I intend to start chemistry again from scratch. I have some biology background but more anatomy and biochemistry would be needed to fill it out; my current cumulative biology GPA from my minor is a 3.0, so a workable foundation to build off of even if not very good in itself, and as I said it may be best to to retake some of the earlier classes. In regards to your later community service comment, I did community service in college but didn't document hours or anything, and the job I was working until recently put me in close and constant contact with extreme poverty and substance abuse and behavioral health issues.

I want to be a doctor because I am intently interested in continuing to work in a helping profession but I am frustrated with how little one can do with only a college degree, or at least the college degree I thoughtlessly selected. I am seeking great specialization to be able to do more; I would have much more freedom of movement and a stronger set of skills relative to now if I were to pursue a doctorate in clinical psychology, and specialize in neuropsychology in particular, but I have grown disillusioned with psychology and skeptical of the validity of not just psychotherapy but psychiatric diagnosis in general. Neuropsychology is one of the most rigorous corners of the field, but neuropsychologists seem to me to be on the sidelines of actual neurological practice. I want to make a difference, which has also brought about a longstanding interest in public health (and thus preventative medicine), but I do not want to be abstractly out of touch with it all as is often the case in meta-analysis or labwork or academia: the patients themselves are my main focus.

Many MD programs will not accept online credits. Check with MSAR.

https://apps.aamc.org/msar-ui/#/landing

Also, your priority should be on taking courses that they need to see you completed successfully, not neurosciences.
Focus on the pre-reqs and “highly recommend” courses like Physiology, Biochem, Cell Bio, etc.
As much as you are driven for Neuro, that does not interest med schools. They want to see you excel in the basic stuff: Chem, OChem, Physics, labs therein, etc

Thank you for that link, and I understand that I need to put neuro out of my mind for now in terms of coursework. My track record in neuro classes in undergrad was solid anyway, and I have plenty else to catch up on if I'm to even be eligible for medical school.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. It sounds like you have a lot of good insights into why you want to pursue this path, and I recommend you keep some notes on these ideas - they could form the basis of a nice "why medicine?" elevator pitch/personal statement in the future. You seem like a very reasonable, thoughtful person and I think you're going to do well on this journey should you choose to pursue it.

Your passion for neurology is evident. When you get to medical school, I'd put my money on you having your choice of any neurology/neurology-adjacent career you desire. But it's great you're keeping an open mind to other fields; my personal opinion is that if it comes across like you're "neurology-or-bust", that could make you seem myopic. You'll want to demonstrate that you've given some thought to other fields, even if neurology remains your main interest. I recommend trying to shadow some primary care docs in the near future - IM and FM would be a fantastic place to start. Aim for 40 hours of primary care shadowing, supplement with other specialties if you so desire - but you probably have enough experience observing neurologists to be fine otherwise.

Start engaging in some non-clinical community service (Habitat for Humanity, Best Buddies, homeless outreach, etc) as soon as you can. The main benefit is that serving the vulnerable is excellent for the soul. The secondary benefit is that nonclinical volunteering is basically a requirement for admission to US medical schools. Keep track of your hours closely, and take notes on how you feel, what insights you've gained, etc. Aim for at least 100 hours, preferably 200+ by the time you're done with your post-bac.

You have a long road ahead of you. Definitely invest in the MSAR as IL1B recommended. It's cheap. Take a look at the prerequisites for your state schools and your dream schools. What coursework do you need to have? What MCAT should you be aiming for? What do their mission statements say? I started a spreadsheet with this information when I was at this stage of the journey, a decade ago.

Once you know the classes you need to take/retake (and do retake anything below a C/2.0), enroll in a local 4 year university (or CC, in a pinch) and ace them. You'll be fine given that upward trend of yours. But it's going to be a long journey, especially if you have to balance work and classes. Remember that the time is going to pass anyway, so it might as well pass while you're chipping away at your goal of medicine.

Best of luck to you.

 

[chicandtoughness]

This is a bit of an aside, but: be very careful with how you bring up neurology/neuropsychology in the future (in terms of interviews, etc). They are surprisingly different, and hearing you talk about your interests in terms of preventative medicine, patient interaction, etc. it is easy for someone to ask, "Okay, so... why not neuropsych?" You do mention interests in sleep medicine and epileptology, which are squarely in the neuro field, so I would emphasize that aspect of physiology in future interactions.

I was someone who went through the whole doctorate in clinical psych interview cycle and then ended up declining all my offers. I've noticed I still speak about my interests as someone who has been ingrained in the psych field, and sometimes this raises red flags with physicians I have shadowed or interacted with. Different language and different approaches, so be very clear why one over the other.

 

[Dr. Faust]

Sounds like you need a DIY post-bac. I had a bachelors degree in nursing so I essentially just made my post bac core science courses.
2 semesters gen chem
2 semesters organic chem
2 semesters physics
2 semesters introductory analysis (calc)
1 semester cell bio
1 semester bio chem

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I am extremely open to dipping my toes into really any medical subdiscipline, and my interests may change as I'm exposed to different areas of medicine if I am admitted

If you want to apply to medical school, you'll need to "dip your toe in" prior to being in med school. That's why they want to see your have clinical volunteering. So you understand medicine from a closer perspective.