Has anyone done postdoc hours or work in exempt settings (govt agencies, prisons, etc) for licensure hours or just for work? I am curious how they treat and the duties that are entailed for the newbies? I've graduated and have a lot assessment experience and inpatient work. I'm thinking about applying to work in prisons for licensing hours but don't know if I'm setting myself up for something I can't handle? I've just been working in an acute psychiatric hospital and already feel burnt out. Any advice on this? I really need to gain licensing hours, and I really need the money but I'd hate to just work at a prison for these purposes.
postdoc work in exempt settings
- Thread starter yadashley
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The psychiatrists I work with at the inpatient psychiatric hospital always tell me NOT to work at prisons. I think it depends on the type of prison and location. Prisons in CA have been getting very bad press lately, for example.
Lack of internships and post-docs...this is the reality of our field. If you applied for post-docs and didn't get in anywhere, then you may have to take a less than optimal position until you are licensed. This happened to a friend of mine who took a forensic position b/c she couldn't find anything and needed to pay the bills. It didn't work out in the end and set her back even more. You can at least interview and talk to the staff to see what the culture is like. I hear the culture in prisons is not very accepting of psychology, but some prisons may be better than others. Have you exhausted options in other areas? Can you get feedback of your CV? Are you geographically flexible? If not, consider applying to many parts of the country. The problem with taking a job you can't handle is that you may end up leaving before you get your hours and then you would be worse off. Good luck.
2012PhD, I agree with you for the most part. I'm wrapping up my internship at a psychiatric hospital, highlight the psychiatric part. It was the second year they've had psych interns and they were absolutely evilto us initially. One MD actually pushed my training director out of the way one day because she was "sitting in the MD chair." So I'm used to a level of harassment from people not accepting psychologists, that I can deal with, I think I'm more worried about just general stress and also feeling like I'm working in a dungeon just for hours. I'm willing to relocate within the state, just not out of state, but would prefer to stay in the northern half of the state. Has anyone actually worked in prison or forensic settings fresh after graduation??
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Having interviewed with several BOP sites last year for internship, I can say that working in the federal prison system is much, much different than the state system. The offenders are often non-violent, there is plenty of monetary allocation for psych resources, and the psychologists sit near the top of the food-chain as far psych care is concerned.
However, from what I gather, this environment is much different than the state prison systems...and I would have little desire to work in that setting. The thing that drew me to BOP was their established specialty treatment clinics.
However, from what I gather, this environment is much different than the state prison systems...and I would have little desire to work in that setting. The thing that drew me to BOP was their established specialty treatment clinics.
I had an externship last year in a maximum security state forensic hospital and one of my supervisors (informally) was a post-doc. He had much autonomy and was the unit psychologist on a competency restoration unit. His main job was to perform only competency evaluations, which were signed off for by a licensed psychologist and lead a competency restoration group. He was called to testify in court many times. He was very well respected and I believe much of the staff (besides the physicians and psychologists) thought of him as a psychologist, not a post-doc, he was never treated as inferior or anything like that. He loved it. He was also making around 65,000 that year.
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^ I also heard similar stories to this so I thought...great! I'll get good money and my post-doc hours. However, I've recently been calling around/emailing numerous facilities some forensic. Basically, they have been telling me that with the current economic climate that they will not be paying post-docs, taking new post-docs, or eliminating their training programs....but if I wanted to work for free, maybe we could work something out! seriously. Maybe these N of 1 stories reflect past post-doc opportunities, but this upcoming year (2012) and beyond, they do not seem to be realities. It is extremely disheartening and scary for pre-licensure ppl right now. 🙁
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When a professor attempted to placate me with this notion of "well there is always unpaid post-docs you can set up for yourself." I politely asked her if she thought MDs were offered and accepted unpaid post-docs. She said, "well, you're not in this for the money." Um, well actually...yes...YES I am! Thats kinda the whole basis of why people work in the first place....and the entire foundation of our economy.
I mean seriously, WTF kind of attitude is that?!
I mean seriously, WTF kind of attitude is that?!
erg 923 - lol. I know, yes I'm not doing this work solely for the money, however, I need to be able to afford to live. I don't want to be seeing my clients at the homeless shelters as well, you know. And I hear ya, why are the MDs put on these pedastals of gold?
Seriously. The whole unpaid post-doc thing is completely insane, especially after 6 years of intense graduate training. People in our field need to STOP taking unpaid post-docs and positions that pay 20,000 because its lowering the pay for the rest of us. The appic website also needs to stop posting post-doc positions that are unpaid. Why isn't apa fighting against this? If this was happening in MD training in would be deemed illegal. I don't even know undergraduates who are willing to take unpaid positions.
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My wife recently turned down a job here (where we moved for internship) because it was way, way below what was reasonable. Declining this kind of thing is an important thing to learn, as accepting compensation that is well below your value allows other potential opps to pass you by...and slowly but surely encourages salary decline in the field.
The other problem is when you start off with such a low salary, it tends to significantly affect lifetime earnings overall.
Over the years, I noticed that men in our field are more assertive about pay and tend to negotiate more. The men on this forum also tend to be more vocal about not putting up with low pay. This is another reason why we also need more men in our field (I am female btw).
I wonder if there is a way for the APA to restrict unpaid post-docs? There was an article in the NY times about how unpaid internships are illegal in for profit settings. They were talking about college students in this article.
The AMA has done an excellent job of advocacating for MD issues and keeping the supply of MD's at a low level to keep demand high, ensuring a high salary and jobs. The APA does a pretty ****ty job of advocating for us and actually encourages an oversupply of psychologists by accrediting every ****ty program that opens up and admits 100 people in a class. Basically, all the pay issues, internship and post-doc crisis can be attributed to the deregulation of our field.
The AMA is actually trying to pass a bill through congress right now that would forgive loans for primary care and other physicians because their pay is "only" 200 grand. The APA of course wouldn't do anything like this to protect our field.
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My wife actually "himmed and hawed" about it for a while until I exercised my rarely used "man of the house" status and told her that, no, she will NOT be taking that position. 😉 Today she got a call from a prestigious private academy in the area which starts at over twice the salary as the other place. Good things come about and I feel its important that noone sell themselves short. Especially in this economy...and especially when you are trying to start a family as well.
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The whole un-paid internship/post doc thing really irks me. It's totally lowering the value of our work and education. I don't think it's outrageous to be compensated for your work. But if people keep accepting those positions then they will continue to exist. 👎
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thank you! I really don't understand the expectation that just because technically we are still training or acquiring hours that somehow that equates to free labor??
