Potential imposter?

  • Thread starter Thread starter deleted1129370
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
PsyDr said:
What kind of fancy pants VA places did you guys have? My first VA had, like, … a Burger King nearby.
Click to expand...
My last one wasn't necessarily in the nicest part of town. We had lots of bail bondsmen and divorce attorneys nearby, though.
 
My view is, it is appropriate to call one a "doctor" in a healthcare setting if your licensing board requires the minimum entry degree to be the doctorate. In this case, that absolutely includes psychologists. I always tell people "psychologists are doctors too." I do a lot of advocacy work to clarify with folks that most state boards have provisions who can use the title "psychologist" as a stand-alone label, and that means those who are independently licensed psychologists. If you are a social, developmental, cognitive psychologist, then they can use those labels, but they must include their respective research area such as social, cognitive, etc. Otherwise they are violating state law. And that is enforceable.

If we don't advocate for ourselves, we become less and less irrelevant. Some folks don't care, but I do. I didn't work my butt off to be viewed by my colleagues as a "second class" doctor, or not even a doctor. I think one other member also mentioned that the title "doctor" is not just allocated to physicians, but podiatrists, psychologists, dentists, pharmacists, etc. What needs to be enforced and protected are each respective fields such as physician, pharmacy, psychology, etc.
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
My view is, it is appropriate to call one a "doctor" in a healthcare setting if your licensing board requires the minimum entry degree to be the doctorate. In this case, that absolutely includes psychologists. I always tell people "psychologists are doctors too." I do a lot of advocacy work to clarify with folks that most state boards have provisions who can use the title "psychologist" as a stand-alone label, and that means those who are independently licensed psychologists. If you are a social, developmental, cognitive psychologist, then they can use those labels, but they must include their respective research area such as social, cognitive, etc. Otherwise they are violating state law. And that is enforceable.

If we don't advocate for ourselves, we become less and less irrelevant. Some folks don't care, but I do. I didn't work my butt off to be viewed by my colleagues as a "second class" doctor, or not even a doctor. I think one other member also mentioned that the title "doctor" is not just allocated to physicians, but podiatrists, psychologists, dentists, pharmacists, etc. What needs to be enforced and protected are each respective fields such as physician, pharmacy, psychology, etc.
Click to expand...

I think the idea of a "real doctor" is a losing argument. If we all used our proper titles, the issue would be over. I'm a psychologist. He's a physician. He's a nurse practitioner.

The difference between “doctor” and “physician” was made by Chaucer in like 1433. This difference is also found in commonwealth countries' use of the MBBS degree for physicians, which is not a doctorate. There is US case law that allows non-doctoral physicians to use the honorific title “Dr”, without fear of being sued for false advertisement. A few years ago, the AMA attempted to get a law passed that would prevent any non-physician from using the term “Dr” in healthcare setting. It failed for multiple reasons, including restraint of trade and 1st amendment issues. Again, if everyone would just use their proper titles, this would not be an issue.
 
PsyDr said:
I think the idea of a "real doctor" is a losing argument. If we all used our proper titles, the issue would be over. I'm a psychologist. He's a physician. He's a nurse practitioner.

The difference between “doctor” and “physician” was made by Chaucer in like 1433. This difference is also found in commonwealth countries' use of the MBBS degree for physicians, which is not a doctorate. There is US case law that allows non-doctoral physicians to use the honorific title “Dr”, without fear of being sued for false advertisement. A few years ago, the AMA attempted to get a law passed that would prevent any non-physician from using the term “Dr” in healthcare setting. It failed for multiple reasons, including restraint of trade and 1st amendment issues. Again, if everyone would just use their proper titles, this would not be an issue.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Psychologist is a respected and accurate title and the one I fight for the most. Although, I’ll usually say Dr. Soandso is a psychologist and Dr. Otherperson is a family medicine doc and I won’t us the Dr. Title with an DNP or doctor of Counseling degree. I also referred to all of my professors as doctor in the university setting.
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
I was looking for psychologists around me to do some market analysis for my own private practice, and I stumbled across this person's website. To be honest, I am unsure if this person is licensed by any behavioral health board (e.g., social work, LPC, psychologist, etc.). Their website seems to be worded in a manner that actively avoids using terms like "psychologist, therapy, psychotherapy, etc." What are your thoughts? Is this person practicing without a license? Is this a reportable offense?

Carolyn Cowl-Witherspoon Ph.D. in Psychology

drcarolyncowl-witherspoon.com drcarolyncowl-witherspoon.com

Upon digging further, it appears she has a Psychology Today profile as well, but there is no mention of any license. Also, it shows that she is affiliated with Sugar Land Psychology - so I checked them out as well and saw no reference to her. I thought, well maybe she is getting supervision by someone else...but no overt mention of that as well.

www.psychologytoday.com

Carolyn Cowl-Witherspoon, Richmond, TX, 77406 | Psychology Today

Carolyn Cowl-Witherspoon, Richmond, TX, 77406, (281) 832-8681, No matter what challenges you’ve endured or you're facing, you are worthy, complex, unique, and capable of striving for and achieving your goals and dreams. I’m here to help. I'll approach our interactions from an open, positive, and...
www.psychologytoday.com www.psychologytoday.com
Click to expand...
Difficult to tell and I am not familiar with regulations in Texas but this profile should contain SOMETHING other than her Ph.D. (if she really has one). I would suggest you first contact her and ask her before pulling the trigger and reporting her - just the report can cause a lot of problems even if nothing is wrong.
 
PsyDr said:
I think the idea of a "real doctor" is a losing argument. If we all used our proper titles, the issue would be over. I'm a psychologist. He's a physician. He's a nurse practitioner.

The difference between “doctor” and “physician” was made by Chaucer in like 1433. This difference is also found in commonwealth countries' use of the MBBS degree for physicians, which is not a doctorate. There is US case law that allows non-doctoral physicians to use the honorific title “Dr”, without fear of being sued for false advertisement. A few years ago, the AMA attempted to get a law passed that would prevent any non-physician from using the term “Dr” in healthcare setting. It failed for multiple reasons, including restraint of trade and 1st amendment issues. Again, if everyone would just use their proper titles, this would not be an issue.
Click to expand...

I hear ya, but I am of the opinion that if you are a healthcare provider whose licensing board required at a minimum the doctoral degree to be independently licensed, then use of the title "doctor" is fair game. It's not that difficult to announce yourself as "Dr. so and so, I am a psychologist, podiatrist, optometrist," etc. I worked hard for it and I will continue to advocate that we are treated and respected just as much as our physician colleagues, especially when it comes to the use of the title "doctor."

And don't get me started on the folks with the bachelor's degrees in some healthcare profession such as medicine who get to call themselves "doctor." Same happens in Brazil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
msc545 said:
Difficult to tell and I am not familiar with regulations in Texas but this profile should contain SOMETHING other than her Ph.D. (if she really has one). I would suggest you first contact her and ask her before pulling the trigger and reporting her - just the report can cause a lot of problems even if nothing is wrong.
Click to expand...

I haven't done anything specifically because of that very reason - I am very cautious in pulling the trigger on submitting board complaints. I have done informal resolutions of ethical violations before with others, especially master's level folks calling themselves "psychologists" here in the U.S.

Her website is very much the product of someone who likely knows they are trying to walk a fine line, and expecting others to not do anything about it because they likely are uncertain about what should/could be done in this situation. I am still concerned that the public will/has seen her site, has engaged her in services and think they are receiving some form of psychotherapy, which itself is a regulated practice by all of our mental health profession boards. She is not licensed in any board.
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
I haven't done anything specifically because of that very reason - I am very cautious in pulling the trigger on submitting board complaints. I have done informal resolutions of ethical violations before with others, especially master's level folks calling themselves "psychologists" here in the U.S.

Her website is very much the product of someone who likely knows they are trying to walk a fine line, and expecting others to not do anything about it because they likely are uncertain about what should/could be done in this situation. I am still concerned that the public will/has seen her site, has engaged her in services and think they are receiving some form of psychotherapy, which itself is a regulated practice by all of our mental health profession boards. She is not licensed in any board.
Click to expand...
Unless this has created a specific issue for you and/or a patient, this stuff is not worth your concern if there is no actual license to investigate.

You are not a cop, nor a self contained fraud investigation unit. No one doing clinical service work has ever made any monies making board complaints about false advertising or false/misleading "psychologist" credentials. Let this go and move on with your life.

Keep in mind that people with bachelors degree are able to provide mental health services (eg., Medicaid's community based services) under/for their parent agency ALL THE TIME. Do many of these people, suck? Of course! Do you have any control that these agencies can be rightfully be paid for these workers community therapy work? No!
 
Last edited:
ohiopsychdoc said:
I haven't done anything specifically because of that very reason - I am very cautious in pulling the trigger on submitting board complaints. I have done informal resolutions of ethical violations before with others, especially master's level folks calling themselves "psychologists" here in the U.S.

Her website is very much the product of someone who likely knows they are trying to walk a fine line, and expecting others to not do anything about it because they likely are uncertain about what should/could be done in this situation. I am still concerned that the public will/has seen her site, has engaged her in services and think they are receiving some form of psychotherapy, which itself is a regulated practice by all of our mental health profession boards. She is not licensed in any board.
Click to expand...
So maybe you could just first talk to her about the problems you have discovered? I think in cases like this reporting is the last resort. People that do this kind of thing often are people that have failed the licensing exams one or more times or are afraid to even take it, and still want to practice. I don't condone this but I have sympathy for her if this is the case.
 
My guess is that if asked informally they will tell that person to buzz off because nothing they are doing "is against the law". Trying to argue ethics with someone who purposely misleads the general public on their website is already demonstrating that they don't care about ethical practice, especially if their degree isn't even license eligible. Maybe that is me being cynical, but I've run across enough of these people over the years to just ignore them because nothing will change.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
My guess is that if asked informally they will tell that person to buzz off because nothing they are doing "is against the law". Trying to argue ethics with someone who purposely misleads the general public on their website is already demonstrating that they don't care about ethical practice, especially if their degree isn't even license eligible. Maybe that is me being cynical, but I've run across enough of these people over the years to just ignore them because nothing will change.
Click to expand...

If you are going to report them, then go ahead. No point is engaging the person in convo as T4C is correct and you just open yourself up to retaliation by making it clear who reported them.
 
WisNeuro said:
In most jurisdictions, I would probably report, and let the agencies figure it out. In TX, I wouldn't bother.
Click to expand...
This.

Some boards will only do something if a patient complains. It is easiest to report the "practice of medicine" than it is misusing a title, unless your state specifically protects the title of psychologist. Even if protected, they may or may not look into it because many boards have limited time. It's really frustrating, but that's the reality in most states.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
My guess is that if asked informally they will tell that person to buzz off because nothing they are doing "is against the law". Trying to argue ethics with someone who purposely misleads the general public on their website is already demonstrating that they don't care about ethical practice, especially if their degree isn't even license eligible. Maybe that is me being cynical, but I've run across enough of these people over the years to just ignore them because nothing will change.
Click to expand...
How they will respond to informal attempts is an empirical question. Perhaps we'll soon have an answer. I sent the following message to her via the contact/message section of her website:

"Your website has recently been presented on a psychology message board I particpate in. Many posters have cited your website as an example of someone knowingly presenting themselves to the public as a doctoral level psychologist, though you do not appear to be licensed as such. Obviously none of us can know whether ot not it is your intention to appear to the public as a licensed, doctoral level psychologist. However, many of the posters feel that is the overall effect of your website. Doing so is likely a violation of your state regulations regarding practicing without a license, and may subject you to fines or other sanctions (I encourage you to contact your state board of registration of psychologist to for more guidance). The ethical code of conduct for psychologists directs us licensed psychologists to first attempt to address such ethical concerns informally, before taking more formal actions (e.g. notifying your state board). I-and other- psychologists are protective of our field and take such matters seriously. We also understand that therapist who are not psychologists have much to offer the public, but should do so honestly and within the lines of the regulations of your jurisdiction. Again- I am notifying younof these concerns due to an active discussion on a psychology forum SPECIFICALLY related to the content of your website."
 
Last edited:
Therapist4Chnge said:
My guess is that if asked informally they will tell that person to buzz off because nothing they are doing "is against the law". Trying to argue ethics with someone who purposely misleads the general public on their website is already demonstrating that they don't care about ethical practice, especially if their degree isn't even license eligible. Maybe that is me being cynical, but I've run across enough of these people over the years to just ignore them because nothing will change.
Click to expand...
Good point - all she really says is that she has a Ph.D. - from God only knows where. That isn't illegal at all I guess. "Psychologist" is a protected term in Texas (OCCUPATIONS CODE CHAPTER 501. PSYCHOLOGISTS") but she never says she is one, so...I think T4C called it right.
 
Last edited:
msc545 said:
Good point - all she really says is that she has a Ph.D. - from God only knows where. That isn't illegal at all I guess. "Psychologist" is a protected term in Texas (OCCUPATIONS CODE CHAPTER 501. PSYCHOLOGISTS") but she never says she is one, so...I think T4C called it right.
Click to expand...
Yes, but she labels herself as a "Ph.D. in Psychology" and in the "My Approach" section of the site says that her work is "based on the foundations of...positive psychology, humanistic psychology,..." as well as "Using a positive psychology approach allows me to..." Both of those things (identitifying yourself as a phd in psychology when providing mental health services and saying that you use psychology when doing so) can- and have- be seen noby boards as an attempt to mislead the public and practicing psychology without a license. Actually possessing a doctoral degree in psychology (especially if it's a licensure degree- though hers may not be) may be seen as more of an issue than if she didn't have the degree. Anyone can call themselves a "coach" and charge people for whatever they do. She clearly identifies herself as a doctor of psychology and says she is doing psychology. That she also calls it a "coaching model" and "non-diagnostic" does not necessarily make the other stuff OK in the eyes of a psychology board.
 
smalltownpsych said:
Agreed. Psychologist is a respected and accurate title and the one I fight for the most. Although, I’ll usually say Dr. Soandso is a psychologist and Dr. Otherperson is a family medicine doc and I won’t us the Dr. Title with an DNP or doctor of Counseling degree. I also referred to all of my professors as doctor in the university setting.
Click to expand...
For me the issue is promptly and permanently dealt with within the first 20 seconds or any/all first clinical contacts I have with patients. "Hi, I'm doctor X, I'm a clinical psychologist working for the VA. I am NOT a physician and I do not prescribe medications or diagnose and treat medical problems. I do psychological assessment and psychotherapy with veterans. We are here today to (fill in the blank).

I learned to do this early on for my own benefit, if nothing else.

For anyone who has an issue with it, they can go pound sand. It's a PhD. It's a doctoral degree.
 
Fan_of_Meehl said:
Oh lawd.
Click to expand...

Yeah, one of Minnesota's most shameful exports is Walden degrees. Second, only barely, to the PFAS chemicals that 3M knowingly used for decades despite clear evidence of their harm.
 
WisNeuro said:
Yeah, one of Minnesota's most shameful exports is Walden degrees. Second, only barely, to the PFAS chemicals that 3M knowingly used for decades despite clear evidence of their harm.
Click to expand...
Where does Capella fall on that list? I think they are headquartered in Minneapolis as well.
 
PsyDr said:
The Simpsons taught me to never trust anyone who uses "Dr. Firstname".



Eh, medicine did this stuff too. Physician assistants and nurse practitioners started out as physician extenders.

Let's not pretend like everyone in senior leadership completed a residency and could get boarded today or even licensed. They learned somehow, without formal training.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with her marketing approach, especially since it is misleading to client's. Because of this, I would purely report her to the board to just see what they say.

Medicine isn't all that straight forward either. They run into similar issues, based on the state... I've recently learned that in order to be a physician you have to be licensed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've all completed residency. To get licensed in some states you only have to complete your 1st year (Intern-Year), although in order to get board certified, you have to complete a full residency. All hospitals and insurance companies require you to be boarded in order to work. So essentially a physician who completed only their intern year is very limited in what they can do (e.g. military, some urgent cares or primary care).
 
VirginiaIsForLovers said:
I don't agree with her marketing approach, especially since it is misleading to client's. Because of this, I would purely report her to the board to just see what they say.

Medicine isn't all that straight forward either. They run into similar issues, based on the state... I've recently learned that in order to be a physician you have to be licensed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've all completed residency. To get licensed in some states you only have to complete your 1st year (Intern-Year), although in order to get board certified, you have to complete a full residency. All hospitals and insurance companies require you to be boarded in order to work. So essentially a physician who completed only their intern year is very limited in what they can do (e.g. military, some urgent cares or primary care).
Click to expand...

I believe that neurologist resident who freaked out, and assaulted an Uber driver, and got kicked out of residency ...is now working as a “mental health physician “.
 
Last edited:
ClinicalABA said:
Yes, but she labels herself as a "Ph.D. in Psychology" and in the "My Approach" section of the site says that her work is "based on the foundations of...positive psychology, humanistic psychology,..." as well as "Using a positive psychology approach allows me to..." Both of those things (identitifying yourself as a phd in psychology when providing mental health services and saying that you use psychology when doing so) can- and have- be seen noby boards as an attempt to mislead the public and practicing psychology without a license. Actually possessing a doctoral degree in psychology (especially if it's a licensure degree- though hers may not be) may be seen as more of an issue than if she didn't have the degree. Anyone can call themselves a "coach" and charge people for whatever they do. She clearly identifies herself as a doctor of psychology and says she is doing psychology. That she also calls it a "coaching model" and "non-diagnostic" does not necessarily make the other stuff OK in the eyes of a psychology board.
Click to expand...
I take your point but even with all that it might not be enough for a Board to care.
 
msc545 said:
I take your point but even with all that it might not be enough for a Board to care.
Click to expand...
Yeah- maybe not. Perhaps we'll find out. She has been notified informally of the potential concerns. If she were in my jurisdiction, I'd definitely follow-up with a formal complaint- her site is particularly egregious in how it tries to skirt the line between saying you're doing "psychology" but calling it something else that the general public is not going to understand is not psychology. We need to protect our turf. My "turf" and "people in Texas who would seek out coaching model non-diagnostic service" have no overlap at all, so I'm done with her (unless she responds negatively to my contact or otherwise indicates that she doesn't care!)
 
ClinicalABA said:
Yeah- maybe not. Perhaps we'll find out. She has been notified informally of the potential concerns. If she were in my jurisdiction, I'd definitely follow-up with a formal complaint- her site is particularly egregious in how it tries to skirt the line between saying you're doing "psychology" but calling it something else that the general public is not going to understand is not psychology. We need to protect our turf. My "turf" and "people in Texas who would seek out coaching model non-diagnostic service" have no overlap at all, so I'm done with her (unless she responds negatively to my contact or otherwise indicates that she doesn't care!)
Click to expand...
You are a licensed Psychologist. You don't have to be in her jurisdiction to complain if you want to do that. Actually, if you don't want to do it, I will. I'm in California but I don't think our differing location(s) matter.
 
msc545 said:
You are a licensed Psychologist. You don't have to be in her jurisdiction to complain if you want to do that. Actually, if you don't want to do it, I will. I'm in California but I don't think our differing location(s) matter.
Click to expand...
I've contacted her via her website. Let's give her until after the holidays to respond or change her website. If not, we can draw straws to see who gets to contact the board!
 
ClinicalABA said:
I've contacted her via her website. Let's give her until after the holidays to respond or change her website. If not, we can draw straws to see who gets to contact the board!
Click to expand...
Maybe we both should. Write one letter and both of us can sign it.
 
I would be willing to jump on board with this with you two. This person practices in my city of Sugar Land....her location is literally down the road from my sub-division where I live. As previously mentioned, I only saw her site after I was doing a market analysis so I could craft my approach in marketing my practice in the area. Overall, I am concerned with this person's business offerings as they really do encroach on our turf. She has been very strategic in crafting her words on her website to walk a fine line, but even then, frankly, it comes off and reads as if she is a psychologist offering typical psychotherapy-oriented services. If that is how I am perceiving it as a licensed psychologist, I can only imagine what a lay person ("average Joe") would perceive after reading her website.
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
I would be willing to jump on board with this with you two. This person practices in my city of Sugar Land....her location is literally down the road from my sub-division where I live. As previously mentioned, I only saw her site after I was doing a market analysis so I could craft my approach in marketing my practice in the area. Overall, I am concerned with this person's business offerings as they really do encroach on our turf. She has been very strategic in crafting her words on her website to walk a fine line, but even then, frankly, it comes off and reads as if she is a psychologist offering typical psychotherapy-oriented services. If that is how I am perceiving it as a licensed psychologist, I can only imagine what a lay person ("average Joe") would perceive after reading her website.
Click to expand...
I'm on board. I still think we should give her until after the new year to reply to me (or change her website)
 
ClinicalABA said:
I'm on board. I still think we should give her until after the new year to reply to me (or change her website)
Click to expand...

The APA ethics code also agrees that you should first try informal resolution 🙂
 
WisNeuro said:
The APA ethics code also agrees that you should first try informal resolution 🙂
Click to expand...
I have already reached out to her, informing her of the concerns that people have brought up here. Given the time of the year, I think it's fair to give her a few weeks to respond or change her marketing materials
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
Medicine is pretty straight forward. You want to be a physician? Cool - do 4 years of med school, then the corresponding residency of your choice to receive your medical license. Want to be board certified as a physician? Cool - you need to attend X residency to be eligible for boarding.

Psychology - not so much. Our field is convoluted: you can't call yourself a psychologist without a license, unless, you put "social, cognitive, developmental" in front of your title if you don't have a doctorate in clinical, counseling, or school psychology. Oh, you want to be a psychologist? At least in 4 states you can earn a master's degree and be called a "limited licensed psychologist." Well darn, now we really have to clarify who a psychologist is. Want to be board certified? Cool, you can either complete a residency program, which can be formal or informal...or, just complete 5 years of experience.

We've dug ourselves into this mess.
Click to expand...
Even being a physician is a bit weird. I could technically practice medicine or surgery after my internship in dozens of states, could call myself a physician before completing internship or having a license, and could say I'm a physician who specializes in basically anything as long as I don't claim I'm board certified after I'm licensed
 
ClinicalABA said:
Depending on jurisdiction, referencing the doctoral degree in psychology while not being licensed at the doctoral level may be considered to be practicing psychology without a license. Report her to the board- it'll only take a few minutes to fill out the form.

ETA- She also calls herself "Dr." On her promotional website. Using that title but no being licensed at the doctoral level may also be considered practicing psychology without a license in some jurisdictions. Any member of the general public reading her website would reasonably conclude that she's a psychologist, thus her behavior could be sanctionable. I don't know texas board policies, but my board (MA) has position statements on such things.
Click to expand...
Yep I see many people stating that when they have a doctoral degree in something else completely.
 
ohiopsychdoc said:
I still can't believe they are making the DNP the entry level degree to be an ARNP. It defeats the purpose of having clinicians who can get into the field much sooner to help those in need.
Click to expand...
It's happening in every field. Physical therapy is now a doctorate level program
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Psycho Bunny
Frustrated about potential income for psychologists
2 3
Replies
103
Views
14K
Sanman
Sanman
P
ASPPB Potential Regulatory Implications of Master’s Licensure (PRI-LM) Task Force
Replies
27
Views
2K
psycho1391
P
N
Potential to become a psychologist with mental illness?
Replies
15
Views
3K
ClinicalABA
ClinicalABA
memiller
Psychologist salary potential private practice in Pennsylvania
Replies
5
Views
3K
Harry3990
H
mind_over_matter277
Potential issue with obtaining licensure in California (please help).
Replies
18
Views
3K
foreverbull
foreverbull
Top Bottom