Potentially Just Lost LoR

[Cello]

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Hey all,

I am coming out of a really toxic lab environment and am not sure I can trust my PI to write a good LoR. Basically, I was assigned to work under a post-doc who got their own lab last year. He decided to exact revenge against my PI for various reasons and went to war with her. Unfortunately, I got caught in the middle despite my best efforts to keep them both happy.

Until last week I would have felt good getting a LoR from my PI as we were on great terms. Since then, a few things the former post-doc did have come to light and my PI is frustrated at both me and the post-doc (even though I had nothing to do with it).

I am sure she'll understand once I explain, but I am very worried about a LoR from her now. For the last 2 undergrads she refused to write a LoR, and she wrote a LoR for only two of the last five grad students. She refused to write a LoR for a post-doc she fired. Having so much on the line for the AADSAS application, I am kind of worried about getting a LoR from her now that she's had even the slightest hint of anger towards me.

I also don't feel good getting a LoR from the post-doc as he's very flaky (one reason my PI disliked him) and he once told me about a time he wrote a bad LoR for a girl vindictively. I don't think he'd do the same to me, but he might, and I don't want to take that chance.

I have 2,000+ hours of research in this lab, and am first author on a paper which I had hoped would come out before I apply. Now that my PI and post-doc are tussling the paper is in the air as they are fighting over it, and I think the only person I can trust with a LoR is one of the PhD researchers in the lab. So, 2 years later, both my paper and my LoR are in jeopardy thanks to internal politics. Would that be a waste? Should I just try to smooth things over with my PI and trust that she'll write a good LoR?

 

[Faux]

Some member on here got a negative LOR from some dental office assistant. Something along those lines. People can be malicious. How many LOR do you have?

 

[darknightzzz]

Hey all,

I am coming out of a really toxic lab environment and am not sure I can trust my PI to write a good LoR. Basically, I was assigned to work under a post-doc who got their own lab last year. He decided to exact revenge against my PI for various reasons and went to war with her. Unfortunately, I got caught in the middle despite my best efforts to keep them both happy.

Until last week I would have felt good getting a LoR from my PI as we were on great terms. Since then, a few things the former post-doc did have come to light and my PI is frustrated at both me and the post-doc (even though I had nothing to do with it).

I am sure she'll understand once I explain, but I am very worried about a LoR from her now. For the last 2 undergrads she refused to write a LoR, and she wrote a LoR for only two of the last five grad students. She refused to write a LoR for a post-doc she fired. Having so much on the line for the AADSAS application, I am kind of worried about getting a LoR from her now that she's had even the slightest hint of anger towards me.

I also don't feel good getting a LoR from the post-doc as he's very flaky (one reason my PI disliked him) and he once told me about a time he wrote a bad LoR for a girl vindictively. I don't think he'd do the same to me, but he might, and I don't want to take that chance.

I have 2,000+ hours of research in this lab, and am first author on a paper which I had hoped would come out before I apply. Now that my PI and post-doc are tussling the paper is in the air as they are fighting over it, and I think the only person I can trust with a LoR is one of the PhD researchers in the lab. So, 2 years later, both my paper and my LoR are in jeopardy thanks to internal politics. Would that be a waste? Should I just try to smooth things over with my PI and trust that she'll write a good LoR?

Hey, I was in the same boat but things in my lab were stirred so everybody was against me and my mentor, which happened to be a very nice but super smart. I chose to not get a LOR from my PI, my mentor moved to another institution so it probably wont make sense, . however, I alsohave a coauthor on a published paper so that probably explains my time.

you can sit down and talk it out with your PI of the lab. assure her and tell her to write you a LOR.

Use interfolio (pay 20$), tell her to submit that confidential LOR to it, THEN, create another email and make interfolio send the LOR to the email by saying that is your potential employer. They will send an email to your fake email to confirm, which you can use to confirm.

then the LOR will arrive in your fake email's mailbox with CONFIDENTIALITY ensured, you can read it and check. if its bad then you know its the worst so just give it up i guess.

EDIT: i will receive some negative comment for my way of checking LOR (a lot of internal affairs happen at my work place/research lab too). However, with people these days and your application, you just wanna be sure right?

for me i have the special LOR holder service. infertolio is used just as checking

 

[stag123]

I've also been in a research lab for many years and co-author of a project. I have a good personal relationship with my PI and if there was any tension with her I can comfortably go and talk to her about it. Are you comfortable enough with your PI to talk about this? If not, then get a LOR from your PhD researchers.
Honestly, if you and your PI don’t have a good personal relationship the recommendation letter can be written from anyone in this lab. It’ll probably be all the same content anyways. IMO
BTW: I was in a toxic environment in a lab for 6 months. It was hell. Get the LOR and run as fast as you can

 

[Cello]

Thanks for the responses guys, I can't believe how many people have had a similar experience! It is pretty amazing just how much drama / politics happens in laboratories. I am really hoping the same won't happen when I am a practicing dentist.

Some member on here got a negative LOR from some dental office assistant. Something along those lines. People can be malicious. How many LOR do you have?

That is absolutely crazy! I know of an ortho resident who had someone write a bad LoR for him and he was only made aware of it when a program director whose residency he was rejected from kindly reached out to him and told him what the person had said in the letter.

I can still have four good LoRs, but it may seem strange to have so much research experience with no LoR to show for it.

 

[Cello]

I've also been in a research lab for many years and co-author of a project. I have a good personal relationship with my PI and if there was any tension with her I can comfortably go and talk to her about it. Are you comfortable enough with your PI to talk about this? If not, then get a LOR from your PhD researchers.
Honestly, if you and your PI don’t have a good personal relationship the recommendation letter can be written from anyone in this lab. It’ll probably be all the same content anyways. IMO
BTW: I was in a toxic environment in a lab for 6 months. It was hell. Get the LOR and run as fast as you can

I did go and talk with her today, and she was fuming, but mostly at the postdoc. She referred to him as an "f-ing a-hole" multiple times.

Basically, he entered the facility after hours and killed off a bunch of her research lines. He then shipped her best stuff off to his new lab. Super unethical, and from how she sounded today, may result in a lawsuit if he doesn't send it back. She is also potentially taking him off of a big paper. So much drama!

I explained that I was not made aware of anything he was doing and that he had kept me in the dark about the lines he intentionally killed off / shipped away. She calmed down a lot and told me that she just wanted me to finish up one thing in her lab and that we'll be good. I asked if she could write me a good LoR and she said not to worry about it, that it won't be a problem. I am still a bit nervous about it though to tell the truth....

 

[Chga]

I didnt necessarily get along with my PI(i dont think anyone in the lab got along with him). I trusted him to write the recommendation letter and I got interviews... so they must have been good.

 

[Faux]

Thanks for the responses guys, I can't believe how many people have had a similar experience! It is pretty amazing just how much drama / politics happens in laboratories. I am really hoping the same won't happen when I am a practicing dentist.



That is absolutely crazy! I know of an ortho resident who had someone write a bad LoR for him and he was only made aware of it when a program director whose residency he was rejected from kindly reached out to him and told him what the person had said in the letter.

I can still have four good LoRs, but it may seem strange to have so much research experience with no LoR to show for it.

Not really strange, the hours and publications speak for themselves. You generally need just need academics and a dentist LORs

 

[Cello]

Not really strange, the hours and publications speak for themselves. You generally need just need academics and a dentist LORs

Yeah, about that... The requirements seem to differ significantly by school, and the only (incomplete) list of school LoR requirements I could find dates back to 2011.

It seems the general consensus is that most schools want 2 science professors and 1 additional letter (non-science, dentist, employer, etc.)

So would it be a mistake to use o-chem professor, coordinator for volunteer program, dentist, and PI?

 

[ICUrunning]

Yeah, about that... The requirements seem to differ significantly by school, and the only (incomplete) list of school LoR requirements I could find dates back to 2011.

It seems the general consensus is that most schools want 2 science professors and 1 additional letter (non-science, dentist, employer, etc.)

So would it be a mistake to use o-chem professor, coordinator for volunteer program, dentist, and PI?

You need to research schools and their LOR requirements. Now is a good time to do so (if you decide to apply this cycle). The general consensus is correct, in my experience. Receiving LORs from science professors and a general dentist will be sufficient. You can keep your PI and volunteer LORs if the event that a school does require one or you believe they add significant weight to your application.

Here are some links to get you started:

Maryland - https://www.dental.umaryland.edu/ad...dental-surgery/dds-letters-of-recommendation/

NYU - http://dental.nyu.edu/academicprograms/dds-program/admission-requirements.html

Tufts - http://dental.tufts.edu/admissions/dmd-program/#requirements

UNC - https://www.dentistry.unc.edu/academic/dds/applicationrequirements.cfm

Midwestern - https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-dental-medicine.html

Michigan - http://dent.umich.edu/admissions/dds/prerequisites-and-requirements-admission

Ohio State - https://dentistry.osu.edu/prospective-students/doctor-dental-surgery/applicants/how-apply

UCLA - https://www.dentistry.ucla.edu/learning/questions-about-4-year-program

 

[Faux]

I'd get two science, one general class and a dentist LOR just to cover my corners.

 

[LaughingGas]

IMO, just like @Faux said safe choice of LORs would be 2 science+1 dentist (general preferably)+1 w/e, in your case, PI. I am pretty sure that would cover most, if not, all schools' LOR requirement.

 

[dds2b219]

I'm amazed by reading this forum and seeing now many toxic lab environments there are! I seriously thought mine was the only one!

 

[BidingMyTime]

I explained that I was not made aware of anything he was doing and that he had kept me in the dark about the lines he intentionally killed off / shipped away. She calmed down a lot and told me that she just wanted me to finish up one thing in her lab and that we'll be good. I asked if she could write me a good LoR and she said not to worry about it, that it won't be a problem. I am still a bit nervous about it though to tell the truth....

You mentioned that she had refused to write some other students a LOR, including a student she had fired. Based on her history, it seems likely that she would out and out refuse to write you a LOR, if she couldn't write you a good one.