Practicing a field of medicine other then what you did residency in

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jiffywerk

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Recently I have come across many doctors who are practicing a field of medicine other then what they trained in.
- ER docs who did their training in family or internal medicine.
- dermatologists who trained in internal medicine.
- PM&R who trained in family medicine.

My question is how common is this? How easy is it to do these things nowadays? And what are the limitations to doing this (I am assuming a family medicine trained physician cannot be a surgeon)? Can it be done for most areas of medicine?
 
I've met a lot of ER docs who were trained in IM or some other specialty. I think the ability to cross over between specialties is dying... some older doctors are able to cross over because they were grandfathered in before the rules became stricter.

As far as limitations - I think it varies depending on the specialty. In general, I think there are restrictions on your scope of practice - for instance, the types of procedures that you can perform. And that means that the job market will be more restricted.
 
Recently I have come across many doctors who are practicing a field of medicine other then what they trained in.

- ER docs who did their training in family or internal medicine.
Those are internists and FPs who are currently working in EDs. Not ER docs

- dermatologists who trained in internal medicine.
Those are internists who took a weekend course in Botox or Restylane, not dermatologists.

- PM&R who trained in family medicine.
Those are FPs who (maybe) did a Sports Medicine fellowship and do some MSK stuff. Not rehab docs.

My question is how common is this? How easy is it to do these things nowadays? And what are the limitations to doing this (I am assuming a family medicine trained physician cannot be a surgeon)? Can it be done for most areas of medicine?

You are only limited in your practice by the credentials granted to you by the facility that allows you to provide services there, and you ability to get the required liability coverage in whatever state you practice in. So if you're an FP (or a pathologist or a neurologist or an endocrinologist) who really wants to be a colorectal surgeon, and you can convince a hospital and insurance company to let you cut guts, or you start your own ASC to do it...you can do it. Those things won't happen in reality but they're theoretically possible.

Practicing outside of your training is a stupid idea and rapidly fading (aside from cosmetics and other irrelevant bull***t. If you want to be an X, do a residency/fellowship in X.
 
Several of my classmates from residency are now doing ER work. But I wouldn't really say they're practicing emergency medicine. They are seeing adult patients for typical IM issues, such as chest pain, pneumonia, CHF exacerbation, gastroenteritis, etc.., doing some initial workup, then either calling the medicine residents to admit the patients or sending them home if they can be treated as outpatients. You won't ever see them doing stuff like suturing lacerations, handling anything Ob/Gyn related, seeing pedes patients, working on traumas, etc...
 
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Those are internists and FPs who are currently working in EDs. Not ER docs


Those are internists who took a weekend course in Botox or Restylane, not dermatologists.


Those are FPs who (maybe) did a Sports Medicine fellowship and do some MSK stuff. Not rehab docs.



You are only limited in your practice by the credentials granted to you by the facility that allows you to provide services there, and you ability to get the required liability coverage in whatever state you practice in. So if you're an FP (or a pathologist or a neurologist or an endocrinologist) who really wants to be a colorectal surgeon, and you can convince a hospital and insurance company to let you cut guts, or you start your own ASC to do it...you can do it. Those things won't happen in reality but they're theoretically possible.

Practicing outside of your training is a stupid idea and rapidly fading (aside from cosmetics and other irrelevant bull***t. If you want to be an X, do a residency/fellowship in X.

Agreed -- credentialing, insurance and mostly the risk of lawsuits make anyone with half a brain limit their scope of practice to things they have adequate training in. I'm sure there are some idiots who go to a week long seminar and think they can do certain procedures, but they are one bad result away from being sued to oblivion -- it's very hard to meet the standard of care set by people with advanced training you do not have so you lose every lawsuit.

It's not like you come out of med school with any level of competency whatsoever. People who practice outside of their scope are either crazy, stupid or in the case of someone who cannot finish a residency or become board eligible, out of better options.
 
Agreed -- credentialing, insurance and mostly the risk of lawsuits make anyone with half a brain limit their scope of practice to things they have adequate training in. I'm sure there are some idiots who go to a week long seminar and think they can do certain procedures, but they are one bad result away from being sued to oblivion -- it's very hard to meet the standard of care set by people with advanced training you do not have so you lose every lawsuit.

It's not like you come out of med school with any level of competency whatsoever. People who practice outside of their scope are either crazy, stupid or in the case of someone who cannot finish a residency or become board eligible, out of better options.

This sadly is not uncommon in things like cosmetic procedures. You see dermatologits, obgyne's, dentists! and other random doctors performing lipo, etc which they should not be doing.
 
Infectious disease doctors aren't the only ones prescribing antibiotics.

There are basic things every doctor who did an intern year will know, and then there are things that are out of the scope of general knowledge. I think most doctors are comfortable prescribing the basic first line antibiotics we all use when dealing with the typical bugs we see every day, but most of us would consult ID if we were dealing with something more exotic. If you wouldn't, i think most of us would agree you are walking on dangerous ground and being foolish.

So I don't really get your point.
 
How many dermatology programs give their residents enough liposuction cases to be properly trained?
 
How many dermatology programs give their residents enough liposuction cases to be properly trained?

This precisely. It's within derm's greed scope of training, but not really within their practical training. I have yet to see a dermatology program train any of their residents in liposuction. What a joke. Then we should be ok with ENTs and obgyne's doing lipo too.
 
I've also never injected Restylane. I guess that's out of the scope of a Dermatologist's practice.


The point is that SubQ tissue is a part of skin. If a Dermatologist is so inclined to learn how to do Tumescent liposuction and gets to a place where they feel confident, it's in the scope of practice.

Some Dermatologists don't prescribe Biologics to just anyone. Why? They didn't feel they get enough training during residency. Is it still under a Dermatologist's scope of practice to do so if they feel competent? Of course.

Same thing for Tumescent liposuction. Procedural Dermatology fellowships exist for a reason.

Would a non-fellow trained internist routinely read echos? Probably not...Is a Cardiologist still an internist? You get the picture.

Google search "dermatology procedural fellowship liposuction".


https://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Port...1_procedural_derm_07012010_1-YR_m08172011.pdf

I refer you to section IV.A.5. (specifically IV.A.5.d)
 
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I've also never injected Restylane. I guess that's out of the scope of a Dermatologist's practice.


The point is that SubQ tissue is a part of skin. If a Dermatologist is so inclined to learn how to do Tumescent liposuction and gets to a place where they feel confident, it's in the scope of practice.

Some Dermatologists don't prescribe Biologics to just anyone. Why? They didn't feel they get enough training during residency. Is it still under a Dermatologist's scope of practice to do so if they feel competent? Of course.

Same thing for Tumescent liposuction. Procedural Dermatology fellowships exist for a reason.

Would a non-fellow trained internist routinely read echos? Probably not...Is a Cardiologist still an internist? You get the picture.

Google search "dermatology procedural fellowship liposuction".

Not really going to go back and forth with you on this, but no, I would say it's not within a dermatologist's scope of practice. Cosmetics is really everyone's scope of practice, not dermatology's. I know that dermies like to claim it as such, but it's not really the case. And if you have not injected restylane it seems peculiar, as more and more derm programs focus on cosmetics, for whatever reason.

By your logic, just about anything is anyone's scope of practice.

Why not have ENTs then or orthopods or neurosurg then do lipo? They are all surgeons, and far more familiar and skilled at any type of surgery than a derm.

Why not have pathologists do it too? They deal with tissue and skin all day long.

What about nurses then or PAs that complete dermatology training? They can also "specialize" in this.

Or how about FPs who can now specialize in dermatology as well? Should they be diagnosing skin disease and doing lipo?

Just because it's profitable does not mean that anyone should do it is my point, and that's why many lawsuits are created-because people are greedy and would rather try to make a buck at something that they should not do vs. keeping within scope of their training and skill.
 
Not really going to go back and forth with you on this, but no, I would say it's not within a dermatologist's scope of practice.

You are more than welcome to your own opinion, and I can respect that.

Cosmetics is really everyone's scope of practice, not dermatology's. I know that dermies like to claim it as such, but it's not really the case. And if you have not injected restylane it seems peculiar, as more and more derm programs focus on cosmetics, for whatever reason.

Wikipedia definition of scope of practice: Scope of Practice is a terminology used by national and state/provincial licensing boards for various professions that defines the procedures, actions, and processes that are permitted for the licensed individual.

I could be wrong, but by your statement, it seems that scope of practice means 'right to exclusively practice'. Nuh uh...never did I project that. Scope of practice means permitted and that's what I intended. If other fields want to practice it, go for it! I in no way claim it is ONLY for Dermatologists.

By your logic, just about anything is anyone's scope of practice.

Not sure how you got to this from what I've posted. I DID provide an ACGME procedural dermatology fellowship document that states tumescent lipo is a required part of training for procedural derm fellowships. I'm not sure how much more evidence I need to provide that it should be permitted by those Dermatologists trained to perform it (not all dermatologists). This is why I originally challenged your blanket statement about Derms not doing lipo. It's just not true. I share the opinion that not all derms should be doing it, but it is under scope of practice for those Derms who are trained.


Why not have ENTs then or orthopods or neurosurg then do lipo? They are all surgeons, and far more familiar and skilled at any type of surgery than a derm.

Why not have pathologists do it too? They deal with tissue and skin all day long.

What about nurses then or PAs that complete dermatology training? They can also "specialize" in this.

Or how about FPs who can now specialize in dermatology as well? Should they be diagnosing skin disease and doing lipo?

First off, I'm not going to claim Derms are hard core surgeons. However, just as an example, MOHS surgery is a type of skin surgery. I'm not too sure of many orthopods, ENTs, or Neurosurg people who are 'far more familiar and skilled' at that.

If lipo is a documented part of any of those fields of training (as I have shown with the procedural dermatology ACGME document), then more power to them.

Just because it's profitable does not mean that anyone should do it is my point, and that's why many lawsuits are created-because people are greedy and would rather try to make a buck at something that they should not do vs. keeping within scope of their training and skill.

I completely agree.
 
Cosmetic procedures are way overrated here on these forums. There's a few plastic surgeons and dermatologists doing very well with cosmetic procedures. And everyone with money wants to see those few doctors. Then there's a lot of other people desperately trying to break in, with glamorous ads in the metro society magazines, but who are making a lot less money than you might think.

It is true that anyone can get into cosmetic procedures. But realistically speaking though, the customers are much more inclined to go to a plastic surgeon or dermatologists (and as above, typically the most famous and well established ones). And when they're paying with their own cash, they have no reason to "settle" for you.

What I have seen (in those same metro society magazines, in which every other page is seemingly an ad for doctors), is a lot of Internal Medicine and Family Medicine doctors trying to break into the sphere of anti-aging medicine.
 
I'll be a radiology resident moonlighting in urgent care in a few months. Does that make me an urgent care doctor?
 
I'm curious. As a radiology resident can you moonlight reading films?

No, not reading films, but as a regular urgent care doc. I think you have to actually be a fellow?? in order to be able to read films. But you can work in urgent care after intern year + step 3.
 
I'm curious. As a radiology resident can you moonlight reading films?

Yes you can. Usually most people don't until they are fellows. Some people have "build in" moonlighting at there programs such that they get paid a little extra reading VA studies or in house moonlighting. In those situations you are not truly solo, but you can pick up some extra cash.
 
Yes you can. Usually most people don't until they are fellows. Some people have "build in" moonlighting at there programs such that they get paid a little extra reading VA studies or in house moonlighting. In those situations you are not truly solo, but you can pick up some extra cash.

I don't think you can read films independently outside your program as a resident. Inside your program yes but otherwise I don't think you can do that.
 
I'll be a radiology resident moonlighting in urgent care in a few months. Does that make me an urgent care doctor?

Urgent care isn't a specialty. It's a relatively generalist job for people who already have a license. But its potentially a very dangerous job from a liability point of view in terms of (lack of) scope and your first priority should always be to decide when the patient needs to see someone with actual specialty expertise.

FWIW most of the radiologists I know get much cushier (and probably more lucrative) moonlighting jobs than this, babysitting scanners and evaluating contrast reactions.
 
Urgent care isn't a specialty. It's a relatively generalist job for people who already have a license. But its potentially a very dangerous job from a liability point of view in terms of (lack of) scope and your first priority should always be to decide when the patient needs to see someone with actual specialty expertise.

FWIW most of the radiologists I know get much cushier (and probably more lucrative) moonlighting jobs than this, babysitting scanners and evaluating contrast reactions.

Your sarcasm meter is on the fritz. badasshairday was joking.
 
I'll be a radiology resident moonlighting in urgent care in a few months. Does that make me an urgent care doctor?

Yes, absolutely. You should keep it to yourself, however, as most of us use the term pejoratively. 😉

sarcasm-meter-jpg.8323
 
Of course you can. Many people have done this actually, with some residents earning >200k with rad moonlighting alone during their final 2 years. But you do have to be independently credentialed, which is a long, boring process.

You are saying that a rads resident, PGY4/5 can independently read films outside one's institution with no attending coverage? I don't believe that to be the case. I may be wrong but I don't believe I am ultimately. And who in their right mind would hire a resident to read films?
 
Those are internists and FPs who are currently working in EDs. Not ER docs
Not necessarily. I know several of them (in my own ED) who are board-certified in EM, despite having *only* done an IM residency. I've discussed this with them too. We had some other guys who did IM and did not get EM board-certified, and they have had to find jobs at smaller EDs or go to urgent care.
 
I've also never injected Restylane. I guess that's out of the scope of a Dermatologist's practice.


The point is that SubQ tissue is a part of skin. If a Dermatologist is so inclined to learn how to do Tumescent liposuction and gets to a place where they feel confident, it's in the scope of practice.
So if you (hypothetical you) ding one of the epigastric vessels while doing lipo, are you going to take them to the OR to fix it, or will you panic and call a surgeon?

If someone is prepared to handle the reasonably foreseeable complications of their procedures, then I don't really have a problem with them doing it. Otherwise, I think you're playing with fire.
 
Yes, absolutely. You should keep it to yourself, however, as most of us use the term pejoratively. 😉

sarcasm-meter-jpg.8323

True! I like to call the term doc in a box for them.
They do have its use, but some of them cater to whatever the patients ask like a B$&@ for obvious reasons.
 
Not necessarily. I know several of them (in my own ED) who are board-certified in EM, despite having *only* done an IM residency. I've discussed this with them too. We had some other guys who did IM and did not get EM board-certified, and they have had to find jobs at smaller EDs or go to urgent care.

There are a group of older docs who got grandfathered into the ABEM when it formed. But that hasn't been a possible route for quite awhile. But your point is well taken.
 
You are saying that a rads resident, PGY4/5 can independently read films outside one's institution with no attending coverage? I don't believe that to be the case. I may be wrong but I don't believe I am ultimately. And who in their right mind would hire a resident to read films?

I know you're banned, but in case you're still lurking, you should know that you are dead wrong. You're so wrong that, if you weren't already, you should be banned for being so wrong.
 
There are basic things every doctor who did an intern year will know, and then there are things that are out of the scope of general knowledge. I think most doctors are comfortable prescribing the basic first line antibiotics we all use when dealing with the typical bugs we see every day, but most of us would consult ID if we were dealing with something more exotic. If you wouldn't, i think most of us would agree you are walking on dangerous ground and being foolish.

So I don't really get your point.

You proved my point. If you've studied, have trained, and dedicated yourself to do something, that is what's within your scope (within reason).

I think every internist, pediatrician, emergency physician, anesthesiologist, critical care physician, and family physician will agree that not cases involving the heart requires a fellowship-trained cardiologist, if the case is within the reasonable experience of a physician. Not all antibiotics use requires an ID consult. The label on your training certificate doesn't always define what you're capable of doing.

So the convenient one-liner that if you want to do X, you should do residency/fellowship in X isn't absolutely true at all.
 
You proved my point. If you've studied, have trained, and dedicated yourself to do something, that is what's within your scope (within reason).

I think every internist, pediatrician, emergency physician, anesthesiologist, critical care physician, and family physician will agree that not cases involving the heart requires a fellowship-trained cardiologist, if the case is within the reasonable experience of a physician. Not all antibiotics use requires an ID consult. The label on your training certificate doesn't always define what you're capable of doing.

So the convenient one-liner that if you want to do X, you should do residency/fellowship in X isn't absolutely true at all.

I actually didn't prove your point at all. We both agree that you are armed with a minimum basic level of knowledge from intern year which can help you deal with only the most basic of cases. You essentially can take care of people that really aren't that sick to start with. But you won't be able to practice for very long before you either need to step outside of that scope or send patients to someone better trained. The "label on your training certificate doesn't define what you are capable of doing" but your board certification or lack thereof sure defines what you ought to be doing.
 
So if you (hypothetical you) ding one of the epigastric vessels while doing lipo, are you going to take them to the OR to fix it, or will you panic and call a surgeon?

If someone is prepared to handle the reasonably foreseeable complications of their procedures, then I don't really have a problem with them doing it. Otherwise, I think you're playing with fire.

Again, if a person is trained properly, then they should feel safe dealing with the procedure.

Tumescent liposuction, which is what Derms can be trained in is different than traditional lipo. Since Derms aren't trained in trad lipo, I don't think they should be doing it.

Since Derms can be trained in tumescent technique, I'll assume they are trained to handle any reasonable foreseeable complication.

http://reference.medscape.com/medline/abstract/7743109
 
So if you (hypothetical you) ding one of the epigastric vessels while doing lipo, are you going to take them to the OR to fix it, or will you panic and call a surgeon?

If someone is prepared to handle the reasonably foreseeable complications of their procedures, then I don't really have a problem with them doing it. Otherwise, I think you're playing with fire.

Again, if a person is trained properly, then they should feel safe dealing with the procedure.

The ability to handle complications is not a relevant guiding principle in the context of this discussion. Many procedures should/can only be done with appropriate back-up available, but that doesn't mean the person doing the procedure is inadequately trained, licensed, certified, or credentialed. I'm thinking chiefly of endovascular procedures that require surgical back-up (IR doing vascular work but needing vascular and/or neurosurgery around in order to do so), but I'm sure others can think of additional examples.
 
The ability to handle complications is not a relevant guiding principle in the context of this discussion. Many procedures should/can only be done with appropriate back-up available, but that doesn't mean the person doing the procedure is inadequately trained, licensed, certified, or credentialed. I'm thinking chiefly of endovascular procedures that require surgical back-up (IR doing vascular work but needing vascular and/or neurosurgery around in order to do so), but I'm sure others can think of additional examples.

I know hospitals that don't allow certain procedures to be done after 5 pm without coordinating with surgery. You may be perfectly trained in the procedure but next to useless when things go awry.

However, a board certified person generally is trained and experienced not just in the procedure but in the post procedural management, while the person without those credentials likely isn't. Each specialist knows how to handle and is better prepared for his known complications and emergencies better than the generalist who thinks after a weekend seminar that he can do, say, a routine liposuction, biopsy or a colonoscopy at his office.

(In fairness to IR, surgeons call them as backup help, to stop bleeds they can't get to, or to put in drains for post op complications, a lot more than the reverse).
 
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The ability to handle complications is not a relevant guiding principle in the context of this discussion.

Correct. My urology colleagues like to joke that gynecologists only perform four procedures: 1) Abdominal hysterectomy; 2) Vaginal hysterectomy; 3) Cut the right ureter; 4) Cut the left ureter. 😉

Surgeons, like cops, should never go in without backup.
 
Correct. My urology colleagues like to joke that gynecologists only perform four procedures: 1) Abdominal hysterectomy; 2) Vaginal hysterectomy; 3) Cut the right ureter; 4) Cut the left ureter. 😉

Surgeons, like cops, should never go in without backup.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
I think the problem occurs when complications (such as dinging the epigastric vessels) happen during office procedures, and a quickly available backup (like a surgeon) isn't nearby. It's not all procedures in the main OR with a bevy of general surgeons in the nearby ORs.
 
First off, I'm not going to claim Derms are hard core surgeons. However, just as an example, MOHS surgery is a type of skin surgery. I'm not too sure of many orthopods, ENTs, or Neurosurg people who are 'far more familiar and skilled' at that.

Glad you aren't claiming they are hard-core surgeons. I'm gonna claim they aren't surgeons at all. Mohs surgery being done by derms does not make you a skin surgeon. Mohs, by the way was a general surgeon.
 
Glad you aren't claiming they are hard-core surgeons. I'm gonna claim they aren't surgeons at all. Mohs surgery being done by derms does not make you a skin surgeon. Mohs, by the way was a general surgeon.

Not in a gen OR with gen anesth or focus of training during residency...blah blah blah. Yah, had this discussion already with med school friends going into 'real' surgery, for whatever that's worth.

Appreciate your opinions. As long as they are happy with their life I guess it doesn't t matter what they are classified as...and staying ot, doing what is within their training.
 
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^ Oh, man. You edited your post.

I was gonna say that everyone knows a Mohs surgeon's surgical skills are only skin deep. 😉

1218919563680yc0.jpg
 
I have always tried to educate residents in what MD stands for federally and locally. Federally, there is no restriction to what you can and can not do when you have MD (or DO) behind your name. It states that after 1 year of training, in most states, you have the right to practice medicine on your own. The government never specifies what you have to practice and what training. That actually gives you the ability to have a transition year and then go out and open a clinic and do whatever you want to. Now, doing something like that would put you at huge risk at law suites and losing you license. However, if you wanted to go and do liposuction after a transition year by opening a private clinic, most states will allow it. As an EM doc, I have received sign out from IM docs, FP, peds, even a plastic surgeon in a couple of the small rural EDs where they just want a body in there to keep it open. I asked the plastic surgeon what he would do if he had to intubate someone. He said he would have respiratory do it. I then asked what if they couldn't get it? Has he ever done a crich or been trained on how to do one? I listened to a deposition of a FP doc who did not have the training for rapid sequence intubation literally cry about how he killed a child because he sat and watched as the child slowly stopped breathing and then couldn't intubate him in the end (he had to wait until he could attempt intubation with versed and things).

Most larger facilities require you to be trained and then later to be board certified in your specialty to reduce risk to the hospital but sometimes these smaller ones don't have a choice and just need warm body in the position. You can dabble all you want in any specialty, the federal government allows it once you have the MD, DO or whatever. But you take on huge liability because they will hold you to the standard of that specialty, not yours.
 
I have always tried to educate residents in what MD stands for federally and locally. Federally, there is no restriction to what you can and can not do when you have MD (or DO) behind your name. It states that after 1 year of training, in most states, you have the right to practice medicine on your own. The government never specifies what you have to practice and what training. That actually gives you the ability to have a transition year and then go out and open a clinic and do whatever you want to. Now, doing something like that would put you at huge risk at law suites and losing you license. However, if you wanted to go and do liposuction after a transition year by opening a private clinic, most states will allow it. As an EM doc, I have received sign out from IM docs, FP, peds, even a plastic surgeon in a couple of the small rural EDs where they just want a body in there to keep it open. I asked the plastic surgeon what he would do if he had to intubate someone. He said he would have respiratory do it. I then asked what if they couldn't get it? Has he ever done a crich or been trained on how to do one? I listened to a deposition of a FP doc who did not have the training for rapid sequence intubation literally cry about how he killed a child because he sat and watched as the child slowly stopped breathing and then couldn't intubate him in the end (he had to wait until he could attempt intubation with versed and things).

Most larger facilities require you to be trained and then later to be board certified in your specialty to reduce risk to the hospital but sometimes these smaller ones don't have a choice and just need warm body in the position. You can dabble all you want in any specialty, the federal government allows it once you have the MD, DO or whatever. But you take on huge liability because they will hold you to the standard of that specialty, not yours.

While I don't disagree with your overall point, I'm not sure singling out the plastic surgeon as the one most useless in an EM procedural setting is going to ring true for everyone here. Some of us have worked places where the EM doctors call the surgery resident on call to do or supervise most of their lines, tubes and procedures. Depends on the facility -- I think you weaken your point when you attack a specialty based on a single doctor, who actually probably did learn some of the things you were asking about in his specialty, whether he admitted to it to you or not. I think the surgeon might certainly be a weaker diagnostician once he got past the surgical vs nonsurgical decision point, but from what I've seen that's really who I'd rather have doing the procedures.
 
As an EM doc, I have received sign out from IM docs, FP, peds, even a plastic surgeon in a couple of the small rural EDs where they just want a body in there to keep it open. I asked the plastic surgeon what he would do if he had to intubate someone. He said he would have respiratory do it. I then asked what if they couldn't get it? Has he ever done a crich or been trained on how to do one? I listened to a deposition of a FP doc who did not have the training for rapid sequence intubation literally cry about how he killed a child because he sat and watched as the child slowly stopped breathing and then couldn't intubate him in the end (he had to wait until he could attempt intubation with versed and things).

Most larger facilities require you to be trained and then later to be board certified in your specialty to reduce risk to the hospital but sometimes these smaller ones don't have a choice and just need warm body in the position. You can dabble all you want in any specialty, the federal government allows it once you have the MD, DO or whatever. But you take on huge liability because they will hold you to the standard of that specialty, not yours.

I agree in general with what you are saying-especially in urban areas. In rural areas, there is a little more latitude in practicing beyond your specialty- standard of care is a local matter. Regarding your example of the FP who couldn't do the intubation- if he hadn't of been there and if the ER had to close down, the most likely outcome for that child is that he would have died on the way to the big city ER. At least he had a chance with the FP struggling to intubate him.
 
I agree in general with what you are saying-especially in urban areas. In rural areas, there is a little more latitude in practicing beyond your specialty- standard of care is a local matter. Regarding your example of the FP who couldn't do the intubation- if he hadn't of been there and if the ER had to close down, the most likely outcome for that child is that he would have died on the way to the big city ER. At least he had a chance with the FP struggling to intubate him.

Although we might wonder whether that child couldn't be ventilated with a bag-mask or at least an LMA...

As I'm just starting out in an IM program which tends to be a lot more procedural than most (no cardio fellows!), I should have much more robust procedure training than the IM residents at my home school's program. They can go the whole first year without doing a BMA and many will avoid ever placing a chest tube. By the end of 3 years I'll have had a very different experience and be a lot more comfortable with a lot more procedures, even though the theoretical "scope of practice" is identical. I do think that anyone who is uncomfortable with something like intubation will call for help first, but shouldn't every physician working in acute care - especially with kids - have completed ACLS/PALS?
 
I have always tried to educate residents in what MD stands for federally and locally. Federally, there is no restriction to what you can and can not do when you have MD (or DO) behind your name. It states that after 1 year of training, in most states, you have the right to practice medicine on your own. The government never specifies what you have to practice and what training. That actually gives you the ability to have a transition year and then go out and open a clinic and do whatever you want to. Now, doing something like that would put you at huge risk at law suites and losing you license. However, if you wanted to go and do liposuction after a transition year by opening a private clinic, most states will allow it. As an EM doc, I have received sign out from IM docs, FP, peds, even a plastic surgeon in a couple of the small rural EDs where they just want a body in there to keep it open. I asked the plastic surgeon what he would do if he had to intubate someone. He said he would have respiratory do it. I then asked what if they couldn't get it? Has he ever done a crich or been trained on how to do one? I listened to a deposition of a FP doc who did not have the training for rapid sequence intubation literally cry about how he killed a child because he sat and watched as the child slowly stopped breathing and then couldn't intubate him in the end (he had to wait until he could attempt intubation with versed and things).

Most larger facilities require you to be trained and then later to be board certified in your specialty to reduce risk to the hospital but sometimes these smaller ones don't have a choice and just need warm body in the position. You can dabble all you want in any specialty, the federal government allows it once you have the MD, DO or whatever. But you take on huge liability because they will hold you to the standard of that specialty, not yours.

It's not like EM is master of the airway. There have been times someone needed to be intubated in the ED and an Anesthesiologist had to be called.
 
It's not like EM is master of the airway. There have been times someone needed to be intubated in the ED and an Anesthesiologist had to be called.

Ahem. And there have been times when I was called to PACU by anesthesiologists to help them out too. In my area specifically and at many community hospitals in general there is no anesthesia back up for the ED. Once you get away from academic institutions this ego based specialty urinating contest just falls by the wayside. No one has time for it. I don't want to do their job and they don't want to do mine.

The best way to look at this is that anesthesiologists are the masters of the airway in the OR and EM are the masters in the ED. We support each other when necessary.
 
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