Pre-med advice/chances thread

[Gators]

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so this might not jive with the rest of this discussion but I am wondering about a Master's degree also before perhaps pursuing MD/PhD. I have been doing research in a top research university/hospital for 3 years now and will have 2 publications and a poster at the end of this year (my senior year of undergrad). I went through a lot of family struggles and was even diagnosed with cancer during part of undergrad, so my GPA in the beginning was terrible. It's a 3.4 overall now with a 3.7 in the last 2 years since I haven't been sick (an obvious upward trend from my bad times before). My degree will be in Microbiology and I added a minor in Chemistry to be more competitive. I decided on medicine somewhat later and I didn't give myself much time to study for the MCAT so I only scored a 29R (11 Verbal, 10 Bio, 8 Physical - I choked on the first section). I honestly had no idea about MD/PhD programs until someone at my lab mentioned it to me and now I am VERY seriously interested. I obviously have the research committment done (and am still working as a paid lab tech) but I know my MCAT is lacking (I know I can do it again and get 30+) and my GPA is less than stellar. I'm getting interviews for MD programs but I'm told that these MD/PhD programs are MUCH more competitive. I've applied to one year masters programs at Georgetown and Loyola among others if I need to get another degree to be competitive but I'm really just curious to know what advice anyone has for me!

 

[seraph524]

Welcome to SDN!

First of all, sorry to hear about what happened to you 🙁

From what it sounds like, you definitely have the research experience down pat, and are definitely strong in that aspect for MD/PhD schools. Just make sure whatever you do, you maintain your involvement with research!

Unfortunately, you are right about the MCAT score...your best bet would be to retake it and score 30+ like you mentioned. Good luck on this!

As for the GPA, a post-bacc or Masters would be a nice way to bulk up on this particular aspect of your resume.

Overall, in my opinion, I think a Masters program would be a great way for you to become even more competitive while at the same time, build up the GPA and to show medical schools that you are able to handle advanced course loads. That being said, ensure that you continue to do research throughout the Masters. As you probably have read above, it seems like MD/PhD program directors view Masters programs merely as a way to pad GPA (since there are way too many Masters programs out there that are courses only, with no research or thesis requirement)...therefore you need to ensure that you keep doing research!

Best of luck to you in the future! And don't hesitate to post more questions in this forum, we all have great advice to give you!

And welcome again!

 

[seraph524]

I just caught your comment about how you are getting interviews for MD programs...are you thinking of re-applying for MD/PhD?

 

[Gators]

seraph524: yes, I am wanting to re-apply for MD/PhD programs, which is what I really want to do. I put the MD application out there this year really just because I had taken the MCAT and thought it would just be good for experience to maybe get some interviews and see how it went. If I get accepted (still waiting on 4 schools), I would make sure that I could pursue an MD/PhD there (some schools allow you to do the first year and THEN decide) before accepting.

 

[solitude]

So sorry to interrupt your discussion... but I am a pre-med student (applying this year), with 3 years research at a top university (1 publication, 1 poster) and I have just recently been introduced to the idea of MD/PhD programs by someone in my lab. I am pretty competitive for my in-state MD programs, but I am not certain my scores will qualify me for MD/PhD. My pre-med advisor joked that I should get a 35 on the MCAT to even consider it.
Is this true?? I know someone who had a 31 and is currently in a program now (though he took two years after undergrad to do significant research). I am fairly new to SDN and I am desperately looking for a place where I can talk to MD/PhD's about this kind of stuff. I could really use some advice to see if this is the right choice for me and how I can prepare for this application. Can anyone help me out?? 😳

The short answer:
no, your pre-med advisor is wrong. You absolutely, positively do not need a 35 to get into an MD/PhD program. In fact, you can get into stellar MD/PhD programs with scores below that, in the low 30s (e.g., 31).

The long answer:
every little bit helps, high MCAT scores included. It's only one component of many that is used to make a decision, and if your academics and research are stellar (nice work on the publication!) then it is somewhat devalued. There's some debate about whether it really matters whether you went to a "top university", but some people argue that if you did, and did well in your courses, then admissions committees are more apt to forgive a below-average MCAT.


FYI, the average MCAT scores at MD/PhD programs usually falls somewhere between 32 and 36, with the average being nearer to 35/36 at the so-called "top" programs.

I would also add that at this point you shouldn't be scared of the MCAT. It's likely that if you're doing well in college, and you study hard, you will do great. 36+ is not out of the realm of possibility, and it can be good insurance.

 

[Gators]

Hi everyone,
I'm relatively new to SDN and I am so glad I found this forum because I am desperately looking for some advice from people who actually know about MD/PhD programs. I am certain I would be happy in one of these programs, but I worry that I'm not competitive enough and I hate that something like this would keep me from doing what I love. I am going to bare my soul here and lay out my stats (I NEVER do this) so that I can get some good, honest advice on what I should do. Please don't sugar-coat it for me... I need your help!
So here's my situation:

I'm a 5th year senior at a top 5 research university. I stayed the 5th year to make up for a lot of things in undergrad, my GPA basically. I didn't know what I wanted to do when I entered college at 17, and then to make things worse I was told my father only had 5 years to live when I was in my sophomore year and then I was diagnosed with cancer (which was resolved and not as serious as it could have been) in my junior year. I messed up some classes during these times but have rebuilt my GPA up to a 3.7 upper division, 3.4 overall. I know this is mediocre at best (trust me, I KNOW), especially for MD/PhD, but I have to say that what I gained from my hard times is far more valuable to me than a 4.0.
My major is also difficult (Microbiology and Cell Science) and I added a Chem minor this year to make myself more competitive. I have made essentially straight A's (I got one isolated C in physics 2, because I loathed the professor... AND the material) for the past 2 years taking maximum credits of all upper level science courses and working full time in a highly-respected microbiology lab. Not to mention I have TA'ed for 3 classes, a biology lab, a pre-med course, and Organic Chem 2.

I have worked in a microbiology research lab for 3 years now, working as a paid lab technician for part of it, the rest for class credit. We do some really interesting stuff involving heart disease and bacterial infection and I recently got my first poster finished and am awaiting my first-author publication in a journal, hopefully soon. I have an AMAZING letter of rec from my PI (a pretty badass woman; I also have 4 other STRONG letters) and she would completely support me if I chose MD/PhD.

my MCAT is less than stellar. I hate to even post it here because it was such a fluke. Because of some things that happened to me, I ended up not having much time to study for it and I kinda freaked on the day of the exam (was going to cancel my score). I wasn't ready and I knew it but took it anyway. I got a 29R (11 Verbal, 10 Bio, 8 Phys) but I didn't even have time to click answers for the entire last passage on the Physical Science section. not good. I cant wait to take it again and fix this mess because I KNOW I am better than this and can score in the 30's.

in addition to all that, I have Extracurricular's out the wazoo. It's true, and it's probably my biggest selling point. I've been an officer in 10 different organizations and I've done everything from Organ donation awareness to organizing international medical mission trips. I won't go into details, but I've done a LOT of service - medical and non - which is a big reason why I got interested in medicine in the first place.

Doing an MD/PhD would combine my love of science and research with my passion of helping people in a clinical setting better than any other path I can think of. I know I want to have a career that incorporates research but I also want to take this research from the benchtop to the bedside so MD/PhD would be perfect for me. Not to mention the money issue would help me SO much.

I know I am not competitive right now, but I am taking the MCAT (and kicking it's BUTT!) in June/July and then I have a whole year to decide what to do to strengthen my app. I applied to some 1-year masters (Georgetown, Loyola, etc) to help fix the GPA issue but most of them dont involve any research at all (they are 1st year med classes) and I don't know what MD/PhD programs would think of this. I really don't want to do a 2yr masters because time and money are an issue and I already have significant research experience under my belt anyway. I also have to mention that I did apply (for the heck of it, really) to some MD programs this past year and interviewed recently. I am waitlisted at 4 schools but this is probably also because I applied VERY late (really just did it for experience). If I DID get in to one of them, I could MAYBE push for the MD/PhD acceptance (pending a good MCAT score) after the first year. If I don't get in (more likely), I don't know where I should start. CAN ANYONE HELP????

 

[BoSoxMack]

To me it seems like you would be an excellent MD/PhD applicant with the caveat of retaking the MCAT, which you are doing. As far as you GPA is concerned, I would say yours is fine for the mid tier MSTP and MD/PhD programs, especially with the trend, the difficult courses, and the extenuating (and character building) circumstances. If I were you, I would try to find a lab position (perhaps in the lab you are in now) for the next year. This will certainly be more flexible than a post-bac program. I should point out too that you will not bump up your GPA much next year since you will be missing a lot of class for interviews. Also, if you retake the MCAT and reapply this summer these grades wont even be on your AMCAS.

Overall, with a 32+ MCAT I think you would be a very good applicant.

 

[chirpingmobiles]

Gators, I'm confident you can be a competitive applicant (even at top mdphds) with your very strong research background, relevant life experience, supporting letters and passion for academic medicine. While it would certainly help to boost your stats--mostly so you don't get screened out prior to secondaries--mdphd admissions committees are mainly concerned whether you have the skills (research aptitude), motivation and vision to become a successful physician-scientist. I would focus on developing a cohesive and compelling personal narrative to convince schools you have those traits. Best of luck!

 

[Neuronix]

Hello everyone,

Gators has posted several posts in already existing, unrelated, threads and so I merged them all here. I'll leave it to you guys to make sense of them all.

 

[BoSoxMack]

Hey Gators, so my last post was a little disjointed (read 3am). ..so I want to reiterate my opinion.

I feel that these specials masters programs would be a waste of time. If you are reapplying this summer, they will have no effect on your GPA as presented by the AMCAS. Additionally, they offer no research experience (which is most important). They might even be looked down upon since these programs would not really boster your research credentials in anyway and are really designed for people who got rejected from medical school, and dont have other options. Now a two years masters degree in mol. biol. or something is a different story.

Anyway, my advice (remember just one person) would be if you are reapplying this summer/fall to find a lab position somewhere and just do some full-time research. You might even be able to get a publication or poster out of it. The lab time would certainly look better in the eyes of an MD/PhD committee than taking medical school classes and would be more beneficial to your education development in the long run.

thoughts?

 

[magwi11]

I agree. Get a better MCAT score. Maybe take one or two classes (which you should be able to find time for in a research position) and spend most of your time in the lab. If you've taken upper level classes in microbiology and cell science, a special master's program is going to only rehash much of what you've learned and adcoms will know that.

 

[Gators]

First, to Neuronix: I apologize for posting in the one other thread where I saw MD/PhD's in open discussion. I am new to this site and I could not find any other threads in the pre-med section pertaining specifically to MD/PhD programs nor did I know how to start my own thread, so I posted in your other thread. I apologize again, and I hope no one has trouble "making sense" of my posts.

To everyone else: THANK YOU SO much for the great advice!! I really am hesitant about discussing my stats when I talk about wanting to do the MD/PhD because I am completely aware of where I stand. I thank everyone so much for telling me it is not as hopeless as I might think. This is an amazing website and I am so happy I discovered this important resource.

BoSoxMack & others: Thanks so much. I am somewhat relieved to hear that you don't think I would need to do a master's program. I was told I had to do one by my pre-med adviser (the same guy that told me I needed a 35 for MD/PhD) but I agree that they can be a waste of time. His thinking was that if I did as well in a master's program as I have been doing in these last two years of undergrad, that I would be undeniable for admission. I thought it was a good idea, at first, but you are right that none of these grades will even appear on my AMCAS. In fact, I don't think I'd even have graduate transcripts to submit until December, most likely. Here is my concern though: I feel incredibly strongly that my GPA is my biggest weakness as an applicant. To be honest, I'm completely ashamed of it. It in NO way reflects my abilities and, even with an explanation of the circumstances, I still feel so awful anytime I have to submit it. Applying for MD programs last summer was absolutely gut-wrenching for me and I feel that if I don't do SOMETHING in this year off to change that, that I won't be showing any school my desire to improve my application. The past two years have been solid and I have done EVERYTHING I possibly can to challenge myself academically, but the fact is that schools have cut-off's. I worry if what I've done will be enough.
That being said, I definitely plan on destroying the MCAT this summer. I'm actually looking forward to studying for it (the RIGHT way) and giving myself enough time to get an amazing score. I'll be enrolling in a Kaplan course as well so maybe that will help. I plan on taking it in June. Hopefully, if I can do well enough, I can counter-act my GPA and won't have to worry about a Master's. If that ends up being the case, it would be EXTREMELY easy for me to get a research job for the next year. In fact, I have gotten paid by my lab before and they would have NO problem hiring me now that I would also have my degree (and a first-author publication with them).
Really, my fate is going to depend on a lot of things that will all be happening in the next few months. I am definitely taking the MCAT again, but beyond that, I really just need help forming a plan. Does anyone know of a one-year program where I could take classes AND continue doing research?? I'd really feel best if I could do both.
THANK YOU AGAIN EVERYONE!!! You all are such an incredible help to me! 🙂

 

[zuzu714]

So I know you've already gotten great advice from lots of people but I feel I need to just add one more thing....You have NO reason to be ashamed of your GPA. Sure you are a smart cookie and had things gone differently the number would be higher. But don't dare let some **** pre-med advisor make you feel badly about a 3.4. Sure it's not a 4.0, and there are people out there who may not have lived as much, had little to no stress outside of studying for the next science exam, and so gotten that 4.0, but how interesting (or prepared for the stress of the medical field) are they? Not as much.

As someone who had a 3.22 overall (3.18 science) with a *down* trend and a few Cs senior year, my pre-med advisor told me I had no chance in hell to get into medical school let alone an MD/PhD program. Except I had a 37 MCAT, lots of quality EC's, volunteer work as a ranking EMT officer in my campus squad, and most importantly killer LOR's from every person I requested one from (One program director actually said, well- we were nervous about your GPA, but the LOR's were just so glowing we just had to meet you).

Four interviews and one MD acceptance later, I think I'm doing ok (I get to be a doctor!!!!) Still waiting tho on those "high" waitlists for MD/PhD, but I'm still proud of who I am, how I got here, and my GPA that documents my life experiences instead of my intelligence.

So I guess moral of the story, keep you're chin up and don't let anyone tell you that you're not good enough, you're gonna be an awesome doctor/physician scientist! Good !!!

 

[magwi11]

Does anyone know of a one-year program where I could take classes AND continue doing research?? I'd really feel best if I could do both.

It's a little late in the game, but you can take a look here at NIH. Many labs will take IRTAs on for a one year commitment (especially given your experience). Once you're here, there are a couple options for taking classes, both through the graduate school here at NIH which offers night classes (cheap, but probably looked at not-too-highly by adcoms) and through the Science in the Evening program at the University of Maryland College Park, which offers a small selection of upper level electives in the evening. (More expensive, but also better, assuming that they offer classes that you haven't already taken). Here's their site http://scienceintheevening.umd.edu/

You might be too late to get an IRTA spot, but it's certainly worth a look around, especially since you can sell yourself with research experience.

 

[delirium81]

Magwi's IRTA suggestion is a great one. I was a post-bac IRTA at the NIH and I highly recommend it with the caveat that you can have some pretty variable experiences depending on what lab you're in. I was in one horrible lab to start but quickly found a much better one. My understanding of the IRTA program was that there's not really an application deadline, but I could be remembering it incorrectly. You basically submit your application and it goes into an online pool of applicants which PIs can puruse at their leisure if they're looking for a post-bac IRTA. However, a lot of PIs will search for applicants with a GPA cutoff, which could be a problem for you. In light of that, if you decided to apply, I HIGHLY recommend finding several PIs whose research looks interesting to you and e-mailing them. I wish I had done that from the get go. It would have saved me from ending up in a lab I really wasn't crazy about.

At any rate, sounds to me like you're a great candidate for MD/PhD programs. Good luck!

 

[magwi11]

In light of that, if you decided to apply, I HIGHLY recommend finding several PIs whose research looks interesting to you and e-mailing them. I wish I had done that from the get go. It would have saved me from ending up in a lab I really wasn't crazy about.

This is not just good advice, it's ESSENTIAL. If you're going to apply, you MUST contact the PIs that you are interested and draw attention to your application. (and delirium is right, there is no specific deadline, but the hiring process can take months) I know some labs that don't even really look into the application pool, but only consider people that express specific interest in the lab. In many of these cases, the actual written application is only a formality. One of my lab-mates knew that she had the position before she even filled it out.

Also, make sure that you talk to current IRTAs in the lab, the experience varies on a wide spectrum, from getting (multiple) 1st and 2nd author publications and having the chance to design experiments down to serving as a badly paid lab tech and learning not much at all. If you find the RIGHT place for you, it'll be great, but save yourself the trouble of ending up in the wrong place by making sure that you ask questions about productivity and authorship and job duties (and hours!) before you take a position.

Good luck.

 

[mariluz]

Hi Gators,

My UG GPA is also a 3.4 (science GPA ~3.0). My UG institution was full of pre-meds who would sulk with a 3.8, so I used to be really embarrassed by it. I wouldn't even mention to people that I was applying for MSTP. But you know, I did the best I could working full time through undergrad while dealing with family and financial problems. Not everyone has the luxury to study all the time and pay for prep courses, etc. - but it's like others have commented, it's about the gusto, the commitment, the persistence, ECs ...

.... and personal statements and LORs!!!

At every interview at least one person commented on my personal statement and/or LORs. The truth is that if I had listened to any pre-med counselor, I wouldn't be here (and I would be regretting taking them to heart).

Listen to the counselors and take their advice with 500g of NaCl ... and keep on fighting. LORs weight a significant amount, as does your personal statement.

Apply broadly and if you're interested, the NIH is a great place to get experience. Right now a lot of IRTAs are leaving for medical school, so fill out the online application ASAP (if you're interested) and contact PIs. I think the best way to search for them is through the different institutes. (The NIH website is a little scattered) 😀

zuzu hit the nail in the head. Keep your chin up and fight on. There will be many people along the way of our careers who won't believe in us and will pose obstacles for us. What's important is that we believe in ourselves!

The best of luck with all your endeavors,

mariluz

 

[Gators]

You guys are absolutely the most amazing people EVER!! I cannot tell you how much I need this good, honest advice. My resources here at school are 1) the pre-med adviser, a bitter old man who never got into med school and 2) the elitist med school admissions director who won't even let you talk to her unless you get a master's degree. It drives me crazy, because I KNOW I am such a strong candidate and I am the type of person who will do whatever it takes to get where I want to go. If it was up to these "advisers", I'd be moving to DC and busting my butt competing with Georgetown med students in a one-year master's program. They pretty much told me this was the only option that they give people, without even looking at the rest of my app and all that I've done (A LOT). I've actually already applied to the Georgetown program just because of what they said, but it is so nice to hear that a lot of you think it is unnecessary (as all my med student friends are telling me).
I am so happy that you all can share your similar stories about your GPA, etc... AND your success! I am so proud/happy for you!! You guys are the proof that there are some things that happen in life beyond our control.. but it makes us BETTER candidates, not worse. In my case, I strongly feel that I have already shown my academic abilities in the last two years. Additionally, I (like you guys) have the LOR's to prove it. My PI wrote me one of the most stunning letters I have ever seen. I also got a letter from the Organic 2 professor I TA'ed for, another one from a distinguished physician/professor I TA'ed for at the med school for 2 yrs, one from a physician I have shadowed in the ER back home since I was 16, AND a 2 PAGE amazing letter from a physician/Vice President at JAMA who has known me my entire life! I think my biggest challenge is just getting past the screening process so that people actually READ these letters.
That being said, I am definitely looking into NIH. I had planned on doing this anyway, however, I was told that the deadline already passed before I knew about it?? Maybe that was just one program? Either way, I'm 100% checking into it. I had heard of this before but I neglected to explore it because 1) I thought it was too late and 2) I was told I had to do that whole master's thing.
So basically, I think you guys have helped me form a strong plan of attack for this application cycle (or at the very least, you've given me the confidence I needed!!). I'm going to take time off to study for (and DOMINATE) the MCAT, as I originally intended. I'm going to work hard to get a score high enough to impress adcom's into reading my statement and LOR's. If that happens, I will either A) hopefully have something lined up at NIH or B) explore options through my microbiology lab or others at the (large) med school lab area while I continue to volunteer locally or at the hospital. Option B is probably not as impressive as NIH but I could get some good networking with adcom members and professors at my school, plus I wouldn't have to move (I own property here).
If the MCAT doesn't go as planned (just considering all possibilities here), well, I guess maybe a master's would be the best way to guarantee a spot in an MD program, which is most important. Besides, I'm told that a lot of med schools (my current school is one) will let you take the whole first year of classes and THEN decide to do the MD/PhD (zuzu, perhaps if you don't hear back from your high waitlist MD/PhD, you might have this option at your MD school?).
So that is the current plan. I hope that sounds good to you guys too! I think it will be best to take it step by step and wait on that MCAT to determine my options. magwi, delirium, zuzu, and mariluz... THANKYOU SO SO MUCH!!! I wish you all the best of luck in everything you do. we will all be amazing physicians someday and look back on this and laugh!! lol. 🙂

PS- zuzu do you mind if I ask what study methods you used to get a 37 on the MCAT?? Absolutely incredible score!!! congrats!! (x infinity!)