Pre-med courses while in Psyc PhD?

[UhOh]

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Anybody done this (see title)/know of anyone whose done this/have thoughts on the possibility of doing this? Toying with this idea..

 

[erg923]

1. why
2. Do you think you are gonna have this kinda time?

 

[IT514]

Na, too busy with med-school level neuroanatomy and neuropathology courses...and doing research, externships, teaching, cooking dinner for my wife most nights, and playing golf now that the weather is nice.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

One of the students who started the program with me under my advisor did this, although she knew coming in she was likely headed to med school after finishing the master's. She also only had to finish one or two classes and the MCAT; the remainder of her pre-reqs were already complete.

Another student here left to attend med school around the same time, but I don't know if he actually completed any pre-med coursework while in the program.

I could see it being possible if you took the heavier-workload classes during the summer, and already had most of your requirements completed. If you're starting from scratch, I wouldn't see it happening.

 

[cara susanna]

It wouldn't be possible in my program, but YMMV.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

Anybody done this (see title)/know of anyone whose done this/have thoughts on the possibility of doing this? Toying with this idea..

I did this for one year while I was getting my PhD in neuroscience, before graduating and doing another year as just a pre-med. Not exactly what you're asking about, but close enough that I thought I'd offer my 2 cents...

It's possible, but I'll warn you that it was very challenging for me:

For one thing, it was just a LOT of school work. Just an unbelievable about of school work. Lots of commuting time for me, too, because I was taking pre-med classes at a different school from my grad school. I don't know what classes you have to take, but if you have chemistry or physics left to take then you should plan on spending 12+ hours a week just on one class after you add up lecture, lab, homework, and lab write-ups. Those lab write-ups can be a real time sucker, but it's not worth taking pre-med classes unless you're going to get all A's!

It was also a little humbling at times... I'd published five or six peer-reviewed papers in high quality journals, and here I was getting my lab reports graded by a TA who was one month out of undergrad, presumably never published a paper, sure as hell didn't know as much as he thought he did...

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If you think this is a path for you, I'd suggest that you start by just talking to your advisor and saying, "Let me begin with one class, and then we can reevaluate afterwards whether it makes sense to continue."

Also (at the risk of double-posting), you might ask for advice in the pre-med "Nontraditional" forum... there might be some people lurking there who've switched over from psychology to medicine.

Good luck!

 

[UhOh]

Thanks, all for your feedback! Hopefuldoc97239, good idea - I'll mention it to my advisor. 🙂

 

[futureapppsy2]

Thanks, all for your feedback! Hopefuldoc97239, good idea - I'll mention it to my advisor. 🙂

I'd be REALLY careful about that--it could seriously backfire, as most advisors aren't going to want to pour time and resources into a student if they explicitly know there's a good probability that the student will "jump ship" into another profession in a year or two, especially if that would mean not completing the PhD program.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

I'd be REALLY careful about that--it could seriously backfire, as most advisors aren't going to want to pour time and resources into a student if they explicitly know there's a good probability that the student will "jump ship" into another profession in a year or two, especially if that would mean not completing the PhD program.

Having an incomplete PhD isn't an option. As discussed ad nauseam on the "nontraditional" forum, med schools are extremely unlikely to accept you if you've quit a previous program. Quitting isn't an option. If you can leave with a masters degree that might be okay, but leaving with nothing makes you look like a quitter and few medical schools are going to take that risk.

futureapppsy2 has a point about telling the advisor. It's a double-edged sword. The advisor might not like the idea. Some advisors want nothing less than to create clones of themselves, and if you don't look like you're going to be a clone then you could be digging your own grave. It's possible that they might try to withdraw some of their resources, but if they've accepted you as a student then the school shouldn't allow them to force you out unless you've engaged in real misconduct or have been put on academic probation. Keep in mind, too, that grad schools don't like to have bad degree-completion rates (this gets reported during accreditation, and with a small sample of students even one non-completer can make a big difference on their percentages).

So your advisor can make things difficult for you if they don't like the plan.

But you're not going to get into med school without your advisor's help, even if you wait until after grad school to take your pre-reqs, so you have to tell your advisor at some point.

As mentioned above, leaving without the PhD isn't an option. But if you apply to medical school with a PhD and you don't have a letter of rec from your PhD advisor, that is also very likely to sink you before you even get an interview. The admissions committee is going to say "This person worked for 5+ years with someone as their personal career mentor and work supervisor, and they didn't write a letter from that person?! Must be hiding something. On to the next."

And even if you plan on taking pre-med pre-reqs after finishing your PhD, your little plans and schemes are going to reveal themselves before you graduate. Your advisor is going to ask you about internships or post-doc positions, or faculty positions, or whatever else they might think about your career plans (sorry, I'm not positive whether you're a clinical psych PhD student or experimental of some sort). And you won't be able to shrug your shoulders and say "I'm waiting to figure it out until after I graduate."

The best advice I can offer as someone who's been in a similar situation is that you are honest, open, and not demanding or entitled. Reassure your advisor that you plan to finish your PhD, that you love what you're doing, but that you've been coming to the conclusion that your heart lies in a different field. Tell them that you want to finish your PhD because you are personally committed to the project--it's important to you and you want to see it finished.

Tell them that you're committed to being an excellent student throughout your PhD work, and that you're not going to let anything compromise that. But if you're serious about med school, you're going to need those classes, so the clock is ticking. Especially if you're missing your chemistry courses. Most schools require a full year of general chemistry and a full year of organic, plus possibly some amount of biochemistry. If a school wants all of these, it's going to take you 2+ years to get them all finished, so you'll want to start ASAP.

If your advisor cares about you (or is just a decent human being) then they aren't going to treat you differently just because you don't want to be just like them. Their job as an advisor is to help you find your own path... not all advisors realize this, unfortunately, but if you talk to enough professors you'll find that many do feel this way.

If you think that your advisor is going to be the type of person who does not like this news, then you're going to have to ease them into it. If you're a clinical psychology student, you might start by talking about how excited you are about prescription privileges for psychologists. Start bringing up health psychology articles in conversation. In other words, start showing that you're interested in medicine.

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Also, I don't know if we're putting the cart before the horse here. You've said you're toying with the idea of pre-med classes. But how sure are you that medicine is right for you? Have you done much physician shadowing? (Or any?) Any medical volunteer work? You should definitely be pretty darn committed to the whole shabang before you break it to your mentor. (And before you start paying money for classes!)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A great post by hopefuldox97239, though I do want to comment on one thing....

If your advisor cares about you (or is just a decent human being) then they aren't going to treat you differently just because you don't want to be just like them. Their job as an advisor is to help you find your own path... not all advisors realize this, unfortunately, but if you talk to enough professors you'll find that many do feel this way.

I don't think this would be the case for most advisors. I don't think most advisors would take offense if their mentees choose a slightly different path within the field, though I think they would have some reservations about investing the time/effort/resources on someone who isn't going to stay in the field. I'd have serious reservations about working with a student that is not fully-invested in the training program. Part of it is about investing in the future of the field, and part of it is more practical: Is this person going to be a benefit to my work, the university, etc.

Medical school is a far different animal, so I'd recommend taking some time and figuring out what you want as a career. Day to day work is quite varied in each field, and either choice is obviously a large invest of time/effort/resources.

I went somewhat the other way when I was trying to decide between medical school and graduate school. I strongly considered an M.D./Ph.D.....but I quickly realized that it wasn't a realistic option for what I wanted. I wanted the knowledge basis that comes from medical school, but had little interest in things outside of neurology and pharmacology. They told me that I didn't have to love every rotation, but I'd be miserable for most of my training if I didn't really care for the nuts and bolts of being a physician. I think the same idea applies here.

If you do not identify with the core areas of psychology training, I think it will be a real struggle for you to start/stay in a psychology graduate program. Even students who love the field will have days where they want to run away to a beach and/or never come back. It will be that much harder if you aren't fully invested. When I'm still at the hospital and it is 8pm on a Friday, I sometimes wonder if running away to the beach would have been the better choice. 😉

 

[cara susanna]

I'm wondering why you don't just not attend grad school and then go pre-med. It seems like a waste to do all that and then just end up going to med school.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

I'm wondering why you don't just not attend grad school and then go pre-med. It seems like a waste to do all that and then just end up going to med school.

Even if this would appeal to the OP, it isn't really an option. An unfinished degree is almost always a kiss of death to your med school application.

But I hope that the OP doesn't look at grad school as a waste of time. Hopefully he/she is learning skills that will be beneficial in medicine. Hopefully, someone with a psychology background will have some good training in how to talk to people--a skill that's too often lacking in medicine!

The extra letters behind your name count for something, too. It can be helpful for residencies. I doubt a psych PhD would count for much for someone who wants to go into radiology oncology, but if you want to do a residency in psychiatry at Mass Gen or UCSF, I think that a clinical psych PhD would improve your chances!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The extra letters behind your name count for something, too. It can be helpful for residencies. I doubt a psych PhD would count for much for someone who wants to go into radiology oncology, but if you want to do a residency in psychiatry at Mass Gen or UCSF, I think that a clinical psych PhD would improve your chances!

It may not be as big of a component for residency, though when you are looking to land an attending job somewhere, being able to bring your research training and publication track record can make you stand out (in the right setting).

 

[futureapppsy2]

Even if this would appeal to the OP, it isn't really an option. An unfinished degree is almost always a kiss of death to your med school application.

But I hope that the OP doesn't look at grad school as a waste of time. Hopefully he/she is learning skills that will be beneficial in medicine. Hopefully, someone with a psychology background will have some good training in how to talk to people--a skill that's too often lacking in medicine!

The extra letters behind your name count for something, too. It can be helpful for residencies. I doubt a psych PhD would count for much for someone who wants to go into radiology oncology, but if you want to do a residency in psychiatry at Mass Gen or UCSF, I think that a clinical psych PhD would improve your chances!

IIRC, the OP is planning to start grad school this fall.

Your conceptualization of a clinical psychology PhD as a nice "add-on" to an MD and a degree where you learn "how to talk to people" kind of bugs me, to be honest. Even a first year (in school psych, not clinical), I've learned far more about evaluating EBT; statistics and research methods; differential diagnoses; administering, scoring, and interpreting cognitive and academic achievement assessments; writing and presenting assessment/case reports' and conducting and disseminating research than I have about the nebulous area of "how to talk to people" (although that is important, of course).

These programs are often exhausting and overwhelming even if you *really* want it--I can't imagine someone coming in at the outset with the intent of leaving and getting through, tbh. I know that there are people who change their minds during/after a program, but if someone is *that* unsure about this before coming in, they need to carefully reconsider starting the program at all, IMO.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

IIRC, the OP is planning to start grad school this fall.

Okay, but I wouldn't have known that looking at this post. The OP's status says "Psychology Student," which I took to imply "Psychology Graduate Student." My bad, as they say 🙂

Your conceptualization of a clinical psychology PhD as a nice "add-on" to an MD and a degree where you learn "how to talk to people" can of bugs me, to be honest. Even a first year (in school psych, not clinical), I've learned far more about evaluating EBT; statistics and research methods; differential diagnoses; administering, scoring, and interpreting cognitive and academic achievement assessments; writing and presenting assessment/case reports' and conducting and disseminating research than I have about the nebulous area of "how to talk to people" (although that is important, of course).

Yeah, I can tell you haven't learned much about how to talk to people.

Just kidding 🙂 but the skills you're talking about, a person would either learn those skills in medical school or residency, or they aren't that needed. So a clinical PhD doesn't add very much to the clinical practice of medicine other than the benefit of patient experience.

In other words, I'm not saying that a clinical PhD is an insignificant degree where you spend most of you time learning how to have a pleasant chat.

What I'm saying is that a person who leaves clinical psychology for medicine is likely to find that their patient communication skills are perhaps their biggest assets that they bring from their first career to their new career, and they'll find that many of their other skills were either redundantly trained or do not translate over into medicine.

 

[UhOh]

Thanks again, everyone, for your feedback on this! I'll just first clear up a couple of things. I'm a 2nd year grad student in a Developmental psyc PhD program getting my master's in a couple of weeks, definitely 100% committed to completing the PhD. I agree that it would have been the easier route to not go to grad school in the first place, and just have gone from undergrad to med school. Wish I would have done that, but I didn't and I'm committed to finishing out what I started, even if that means I would be older than I'd like if/when I started a MD program. If I do go the medical route, it would be a long haul and a lot of things would have to go right along the way so I could even get into a program. There are some issues that lead me to hypothesize that my advisor would really withdraw from investing himself in training me if I told him my interest in going into medicine after the PhD. It sucks because I've made this 4-year + commitment to psychology that now I feel like makes the whole med school thing inconvenient. Don't get me wrong, I really like psyc and I am committed to my training in psyc. Ever just feel like you made a huge life choice that limits other options? That's how I feel now. Sucks.

Edit: and when I say "limits other options", I want to clarify that I am very well aware that any life choice is going to limit other options. I do realize that decisions and commitments require sacrifices, and that's not what I'm complaining about. I've gladly sacrificed for my education thus far. I'm basically bitching, I guess, because I wish that I could be forever young and do many things - whatever I want that I have the ability to - and it'd all be gravy, baby 😉. Maybe irrational, yes, but I just want to do more!

 

[futureapppsy2]

Thanks again, everyone, for your feedback on this! I'll just first clear up a couple of things. I'm a 2nd year grad student in a Developmental psyc PhD program getting my master's in a couple of weeks, definitely 100% committed to completing the PhD. I agree that it would have been the easier route to not go to grad school in the first place, and just have gone from undergrad to med school. Wish I would have done that, but I didn't and I'm committed to finishing out what I started, even if that means I would be older than I'd like if/when I started a MD program. If I do go the medical route, it would be a long haul and a lot of things would have to go right along the way so I could even get into a program. There are some issues that lead me to hypothesize that my advisor would really withdraw from investing himself in training me if I told him my interest in going into medicine after the PhD. It sucks because I've made this 4-year + commitment to psychology that now I feel like makes the whole med school thing inconvenient. Don't get me wrong, I really like psyc and I am committed to my training in psyc. Ever just feel like you made a huge life choice that limits other options? That's how I feel now. Sucks.

Edit: and when I say "limits other options", I want to clarify that I am very well aware that any life choice is going to limit other options. I do realize that decisions and commitments require sacrifices, and that's not what I'm complaining about. I've gladly sacrificed for my education thus far. I'm basically bitching, I guess, because I wish that I could be forever young and do many things - whatever I want that I have the ability to - and it'd all be gravy, baby 😉. Maybe irrational, yes, but I just want to do more!

I'm confused... Your previous posts indicate that you were applying to Clinical Psych PhD programs. So, you're in a Developmental Psych PhD program, applied to Clinical Psych PhD programs (decided not to go?), and are now wanting to go into medicine? Just clarifying. 🙂

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

Thanks again, everyone, for your feedback on this! I'll just first clear up a couple of things. I'm a 2nd year grad student in a Developmental psyc PhD program getting my master's in a couple of weeks, definitely 100% committed to completing the PhD. I agree that it would have been the easier route to not go to grad school in the first place, and just have gone from undergrad to med school. Wish I would have done that, but I didn't and I'm committed to finishing out what I started, even if that means I would be older than I'd like if/when I started a MD program. If I do go the medical route, it would be a long haul and a lot of things would have to go right along the way so I could even get into a program. There are some issues that lead me to hypothesize that my advisor would really withdraw from investing himself in training me if I told him my interest in going into medicine after the PhD. It sucks because I've made this 4-year + commitment to psychology that now I feel like makes the whole med school thing inconvenient. Don't get me wrong, I really like psyc and I am committed to my training in psyc. Ever just feel like you made a huge life choice that limits other options? That's how I feel now. Sucks.

Edit: and when I say "limits other options", I want to clarify that I am very well aware that any life choice is going to limit other options. I do realize that decisions and commitments require sacrifices, and that's not what I'm complaining about. I've gladly sacrificed for my education thus far. I'm basically bitching, I guess, because I wish that I could be forever young and do many things - whatever I want that I have the ability to - and it'd all be gravy, baby 😉. Maybe irrational, yes, but I just want to do more!

That's unfortunate... everyone on my dissertation committee (including my advisor) knew where I was headed and they didn't change their support. And let me tell you something, the ³⁶Cl^- radiotracer I was using was not cheap! (Imagine a grain of salt that costs $1000!)

It really will be hard for you to get into medical school without the support of your advisor in the form of a really strong letter of recommendation, so if med school is where you think you're headed then you do have to sort this out eventually. There has to be someone you can talk to confidentially about your situation. You could ask the director of your grad program for a confidential meeting, or perhaps some other professor whom you have good rapport with.

Otherwise, (please don't do this just because I said so, but I have to say it) your option may only be to cut and run with the master's, and start building new relationships for your letters of recommendation. If you stay for the PhD, then you're going to need your advisor's blessing to get into med school.

 

[UhOh]

See below. Accidental repost.

 

[UhOh]

Yeah, you got it exactly right, futureapppsy2. Thanks for keeping tabs on me 😉. I applied to clinical programs this year, got accepted to one but then turned it down to finish up in my dev program. And I've been interested in medicine for, probably a little over a year, too (though when I was in undergrad my original plan was to do pre-med and go to med school but chose not to). But haven't seriously considered completely stopping the psyc path to pursue the medicine one. There's my academic life story as it stands 😉.

I'm confused... Your previous posts indicate that you were applying to Clinical Psych PhD programs. So, you're in a Developmental Psych PhD program, applied to Clinical Psych PhD programs (decided not to go?), and are now wanting to go into medicine? Just clarifying. 🙂

 

[UhOh]

Thanks for the advice hopefuldoc! The thing with my advisor is that, since I have demonstrated a lack of commitment to the program by applying elsewhere (even though I eventually chose to stay), I just think if I told him so short after the app process is over that eventually I'm gonna want to go into something else anyway, he would really withdraw his investment in my training. I've already seen him do this and I think it's due to my applying elsewhere. It's unfortunate but I guess I can understand from his perspective. I'm not saying he wouldn't write me an awesome letter of recommendation, he's a good person and I think he'd help me out with that. I'd just be concerned about his investment during the time I have left training with him. So I'm going to think about it and decide where to go from here. Again, I appreciate all y'all's help! 🙂

That's unfortunate... everyone on my dissertation committee (including my advisor) knew where I was headed and they didn't change their support. And let me tell you something, the ³⁶Cl^- radiotracer I was using was not cheap! (Imagine a grain of salt that costs $1000!)

It really will be hard for you to get into medical school without the support of your advisor in the form of a really strong letter of recommendation, so if med school is where you think you're headed then you do have to sort this out eventually. There has to be someone you can talk to confidentially about your situation. You could ask the director of your grad program for a confidential meeting, or perhaps some other professor whom you have good rapport with.

Otherwise, (please don't do this just because I said so, but I have to say it) your option may only be to cut and run with the master's, and start building new relationships for your letters of recommendation. If you stay for the PhD, then you're going to need your advisor's blessing to get into med school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks for the advice hopefuldoc! The thing with my advisor is that, since I have demonstrated a lack of commitment to the program by applying elsewhere (even though I eventually chose to stay), I just think if I told him so short after the app process is over that eventually I'm gonna want to go into something else anyway, he would really withdraw his investment in my training. I've already seen him do this and I think it's due to my applying elsewhere. It's unfortunate but I guess I can understand from his perspective. I'm not saying he wouldn't write me an awesome letter of recommendation, he's a good person and I think he'd help me out with that. I'd just be concerned about his investment during the time I have left training with him. So I'm going to think about it and decide where to go from here. Again, I appreciate all y'all's help! 🙂

If he's already seen you apply to one type of program elsewhere (clinical psych), it's likely that he could become less-than-enthusiastic regarding your training should he now hear about you wanting to go in a different direction (med school), with neither change being entirely related to your original field of study (developmental). It's possible that his letter of rec would be glowing, but it's also possible that he could mention this somewhat "scattered" appearance of interests.

Which does beg the question--given that clinical psych and medicine can be two disparate fields in many ways, and that both are at least somewhat different from developmental psych, have you sat down and given your career interests a careful and in-depth pondering? It sounds as though you have, but it could be worth revisiting.

If you're dead-set on medical school, and are absolutely certain it's what you'd like to do, then I agree that it MIGHT be in your best interests to "cut and run" after the master's. Both of the individuals whom I know that switched from clinical psych to medicine left after obtaining their masters, and neither seemed to have an issue gaining admittance.

 

[loveoforganic]

You're committed to the phd (I'm not exactly sure which one you're committed to, I think the clinical one). At any rate, you're committed to a phd and a very long road of training. Are you stipended/tuition wavered? If so, why don't you plan on practicing for a year or two, feeling the career out and getting a better idea if you'd be happy there, and save up some money in case you aren't, which you could use to go full time student and knock out premed reqs in a year + 2 summers (e.g. summer 1: chem 1/chem 2; sem 1: phys 1, org 1, bio 1; sem 2: phys 2, org 2, bio 2, org lab; summer 2: mcat)? It's just a huge amount of coursework to be adding to a phd workload, you wouldn't run into any issues with your adviser, and you'd get to try the career out you worked so hard for.