Pregnant emergencies

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DocEspana

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I'm in a very explicitly open by stating that I love posting about politics on this website, and I love arguing about politics on this website, but I am not making this post to do either of those things. If you want to go argue about the political merits of this, there may or may not be a secret place where you can do that on this website and you can ask me about it.

Now on to the meat of the matter:


For those of you too busy to read, or who have an anaphylactic reaction to the New York times, here's a quick summary: HHS rescinded a policy that explicitly stated that abortion is allowed under EMTALA if the woman's life is endangered and then posted a new policy to replace it with extreme vague wording on the topic just saying more or less "EMTALA is a thing, figure it out on your own".

For the slightly more in depth summary: In the aftermath of the Supreme Court case a few years ago that allowed states to legislate abortion rights to whatever week they so wish, it was pointed out that this could present serious issues in the community emergency medicine community with how it contradicts with the need for stabilization. So a policy position was put out by then President Biden saying that states can set the law wherever they want, but federally if a woman presents with a life-threatening pregnancy related issue to the emergency department, federal law says that you need to do whatever it takes to stabilize her, including abortion if that is what it would require.

Cool. That made sense to me. I get that the way reality plays out is always more messy. People of one mindset will look at a pregnant woman in danger and say that she's not yet in sufficient life-threatening danger to justify an abortion and still turn her away. People of another mindset will argue that this gives federal coverage to break state law based on the "whims" of the EM doc. I get it. Reality remained messy. But at least there was clear formal statement that if you felt it was justified, the federal government had your back.

The federal government just rescinded that guidance and replaced it with a incredibly vague statement that notably has no mention of abortion and instead more concisely (but less clearly) states that hospitals would still be subject to a federal law requiring them to provide reproductive health care in emergency situations.

And if you look at it a certain way, that's not materially different. But also, The specific change it made is turning a very explicit policy into one that requires quite a bit of interpretation. And interpretation is not the best way to be practicing medicine when States carry extremely heavy penalties for violation of the sort of laws.

Is anyone else worried about this? Anyone plugged into any of the emergency medicine advocacy groups and have some idea as to to if they are already crafting a comment on this? I've been connected to advocacy groups for long enough (though I'm not affiliated right this second) to know that every time something like this comes down the pipe, there is already a group chat happening within a few hours with policy statements and formal responses being crafted
 
If you don't have OB in house, you'll transfer, if you do, you'll consult them. Either way we'll still be turfing this to OB and letting them figure it out.

Yeah sounds like a nightmare situation for OB. For EM, we can just punt it to them and call it a day.

If i had a pregnant person bleeding profusely, im just going to give her blood and fluids and get her out as soon as possible.
 
I’m fairly pro choice but I never felt that this was an issue for EM
 
Also pro choice.. i think the deal here is supporting OB. I have had cases where the OB states "Please put x,y,z in the chart". IMO if you are pro life or pro choice it shouldnt matter here. Ruptured ectopic bleeding and dying should get treated to save the mom. I dont think it is controversial.
 
Has any doc been prosecuted or even sniffed around prosecution for ER/EMTALA related abortion care? I’m very far away from OB/Gyn so haven’t followed it that closely.
 
Has any doc been prosecuted or even sniffed around prosecution for ER/EMTALA related abortion care? I’m very far away from OB/Gyn so haven’t followed it that closely.
An awful lot of anecdotes of people being DCd from the ED and told to come back once their H/H has dropped a bit more. Plus a few of people just flat out having EMTALA violated and being told that they can't come to the ER for threatened abortion because they can't treat what they find and being told to go somewhere else.
 
An awful lot of anecdotes of people being DCd from the ED and told to come back once their H/H has dropped a bit more. Plus a few of people just flat out having EMTALA violated and being told that they can't come to the ER for threatened abortion because they can't treat what they find and being told to go somewhere else.
Right I believe that but it isn't really what I asked. Has any physician (or midlevel) actually been brought up on any of these new laws? Seems like it would be big national news but I admittedly could have missed it.

I could be wrong but it feels like you're at much higher risk of a malpractice issue by changing your practice and doing stuff like that than you are to actually run afoul of these new laws taking care of a legitimately sick patient. I also wouldn't think you'd even have this law come up in the case of threatened abortion but maybe you mean incomplete abortion or something?
 
I'm in a very explicitly open by stating that I love posting about politics on this website, and I love arguing about politics on this website, but I am not making this post to do either of those things. If you want to go argue about the political merits of this, there may or may not be a secret place where you can do that on this website and you can ask me about it.

Now on to the meat of the matter:


For those of you too busy to read, or who have an anaphylactic reaction to the New York times, here's a quick summary: HHS rescinded a policy that explicitly stated that abortion is allowed under EMTALA if the woman's life is endangered and then posted a new policy to replace it with extreme vague wording on the topic just saying more or less "EMTALA is a thing, figure it out on your own".

For the slightly more in depth summary: In the aftermath of the Supreme Court case a few years ago that allowed states to legislate abortion rights to whatever week they so wish, it was pointed out that this could present serious issues in the community emergency medicine community with how it contradicts with the need for stabilization. So a policy position was put out by then President Biden saying that states can set the law wherever they want, but federally if a woman presents with a life-threatening pregnancy related issue to the emergency department, federal law says that you need to do whatever it takes to stabilize her, including abortion if that is what it would require.

Cool. That made sense to me. I get that the way reality plays out is always more messy. People of one mindset will look at a pregnant woman in danger and say that she's not yet in sufficient life-threatening danger to justify an abortion and still turn her away. People of another mindset will argue that this gives federal coverage to break state law based on the "whims" of the EM doc. I get it. Reality remained messy. But at least there was clear formal statement that if you felt it was justified, the federal government had your back.

The federal government just rescinded that guidance and replaced it with a incredibly vague statement that notably has no mention of abortion and instead more concisely (but less clearly) states that hospitals would still be subject to a federal law requiring them to provide reproductive health care in emergency situations.

And if you look at it a certain way, that's not materially different. But also, The specific change it made is turning a very explicit policy into one that requires quite a bit of interpretation. And interpretation is not the best way to be practicing medicine when States carry extremely heavy penalties for violation of the sort of laws.

Is anyone else worried about this? Anyone plugged into any of the emergency medicine advocacy groups and have some idea as to to if they are already crafting a comment on this? I've been connected to advocacy groups for long enough (though I'm not affiliated right this second) to know that every time something like this comes down the pipe, there is already a group chat happening within a few hours with policy statements and formal responses being crafted

I'm not going to worry about this. This will be OB's problem.
 
An awful lot of anecdotes of people being DCd from the ED and told to come back once their H/H has dropped a bit more. Plus a few of people just flat out having EMTALA violated and being told that they can't come to the ER for threatened abortion because they can't treat what they find and being told to go somewhere else.

Threatened abortion isn't a reason to terminate a pregnancy though. It's just the waste basket term for bleeding in the first trimester.

And there isn't any treatment. Pelvic rest etc.

Extremely uncommon for a patient to be hemorrhaging in the first trimester with a viable intra uterine pregnancy.

I haven't seen a story yet of a physician being prosecuted because of some of these abortion laws. I would be interested to see the clinical case if there was one.
 
Threatened abortion isn't a reason to terminate a pregnancy though. It's just the waste basket term for bleeding in the first trimester.

And there isn't any treatment. Pelvic rest etc.

Extremely uncommon for a patient to be hemorrhaging in the first trimester with a viable intra uterine pregnancy.

I haven't seen a story yet of a physician being prosecuted because of some of these abortion laws. I would be interested to see the clinical case if there was one.
I mean I agree with the first one, but yet hospitals were turning away people a few years back right at triage as soon as the complaint was bleeding during pregnancy.

Not commenting on the medical validity as much as "it was happening", likely because legal department wasn't quick enough to give clear guidance.
 
I mean I agree with the first one, but yet hospitals were turning away people a few years back right at triage as soon as the complaint was bleeding during pregnancy.

Not commenting on the medical validity as much as "it was happening", likely because legal department wasn't quick enough to give clear guidance.

It's interesting that the reflex move would be to deny care. I would think that would lead to more potential liability from refusing to see someone in an ED setting
 
It's interesting that the reflex move would be to deny care. I would think that would lead to more potential liability from refusing to see someone in an ED setting
This is exactly what I’m saying. I don’t know all the specific laws that have been passed everywhere but I have a feeling the hysteria over it has been more damaging than whatever the actual laws are themselves. Poor guidance from the legal department is a bad excuse IMO when that’s literally what the legal department should be getting paid for.

In fact I imagine being the first person prosecuted under this junk for providing legitimate emergency medical care could be an exit strategy altogether, I bet you could retire with a book deal or two if you wanted… as long as some nutjob didn’t try to off you…
 
People like to perseverate on total outlier things and the “theoretical” what-ifs.. snooze.. I just dont get hysterical about any of this.. I work, earn a living and provide for my family.. the rest IMO is noise. My mom gets all bent out of shape about politics.. I tell her that none of this impacts her, none of this matters, just keep doing your thing and focusing on what matters. I teach my kids the same.

Daughters BF losing her mind about trump and all the freedoms they are gonna take away. I gave my kid the same advice I gave my mom.. keep your eye on the prize and stay focused.
 
Here is how it affects me. I do locums. I check state laws on abortion before applying now. I don't want to be in Idaho or Texas or Alabama and have to figure out how to fly a patient out of state because OB is telling me they can't do anything.
 
From a pro-life opinion...the life of the mother is never to be compromised. People aren't/shouldn't be coming to us for elective abortions. Regardless of what your stance is an elective AB is not an emergent thing. I sympathize with both sides. This is one of those issues where it has been "over-politicized" and we in the EM field have to do what's in the best interest of the patient. I will stand before a jury of my "peers" any day and defend that an ectopic is a life-threat to the mother and consequently the baby. I have also lived through it and had to deal with it and do not regret it.

Also, I'm in Alabama and it's not really a big issue. Do the right thing for the emergency patient.
 
"People shouldn't be coming to us for elective abortions."

Boom. There it is. Bravo.

Except we have TV shows like "THE PITT" advertising to the muggles that we are the place for that (in addition to everything else), as well.
 
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