Prenup?

[KitCat]

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Should veterinarians sign them? My fiancé is pretty insistent on it, but I didn't think it was applicable to us. He makes ~60k/year. His parents ~100k. My dad ~60k. Neither of us have been married before or have children. As of now I don't plan on being a practice owner. And he would never be left with paying my direct unsub loan/grad plus loan right?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Should veterinarians sign them? My fiancé is pretty insistent on it, but I didn't think it was applicable to us. He makes ~60k/year. His parents ~100k. My dad ~60k. Neither of us have been married before or have children. As of now I don't plan on being a practice owner. And he would never be left with paying my direct unsub loan/grad plus loan right?

Prenups aren't just for people with widely different incomes. They can apply to any couple who wants to protect their assets because let's face it - you never know what life is going to throw at you and you can't predict the future. My personal opinion (and I know some here may disagree and say that prenups signify a lack of trust/faith/whatever - life experience forces me to disagree but so be it) is that a prenup is generally a good thing for any couple. People seem to take it strangely personally. A marriage is a business partnership as well as a loving relationship (and often more so).

 

[Trilt]

Agree with WTF. Why are you opposed to a prenup?

 

[missdarjeeling]

Prenups are to protect assets you're bringing into the marriage, not future assets to be acquired during the marriage. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that whether assets acquired during marriage are marital property or can be maintained as individual property will vary by state and circumstance. Your parents' incomes are irrelevant - it's my understanding that it's common for bequeathed estates to be considered individual property, and only certain actions can turn it into marital property.

I didn't have a prenup and would've been bothered by my spouse asking for one because we both went into the marriage with virtually no assets. It would have been a waste of time and attorneys' fees because there would've literally been nothing in it. To me, it's different if you actually do have something to protect in the first place. I also think it's smart for anyone buying a practice or opening a practice to do the legal background work to protect that asset and not make it marital property, but you can't just put that in a prenup when the asset is theoretical, just like you can't put hypothetical child custody agreements in writing before you even have a baby. I mean, you can, but it's going to mean absolutely nothing in court.

 

[Mad Jack]

Prenups are to protect assets you're bringing into the marriage, not future assets to be acquired during the marriage. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that whether assets acquired during marriage are marital property or can be maintained as individual property will vary by state and circumstance. Your parents' incomes are irrelevant - it's my understanding that it's common for bequeathed estates to be considered individual property, and only certain actions can turn it into marital property.

I didn't have a prenup and would've been bothered by my spouse asking for one because we both went into the marriage with virtually no assets. It would have been a waste of time and attorneys' fees because there would've literally been nothing in it. To me, it's different if you actually do have something to protect in the first place. I also think it's smart for anyone buying a practice or opening a practice to do the legal background work to protect that asset and not make it marital property, but you can't just put that in a prenup when the asset is theoretical, just like you can't put hypothetical child custody agreements in writing before you even have a baby. I mean, you can, but it's going to mean absolutely nothing in court.

The other aspect of prenups is they also divvy out different assets based on the manner in which the marriage dissolves, which holds water in some states but not others. Infidelity invalidating claims to certain assets acquired during the marriage or requiring a payout is a common one.

 

[killerleaf]

As far as the loans go, I know of one couple: she obtained the loans years before they married. They divorced, and the IRS garnished his taxes two years later because she quit paying on them. He fought it, and they finally gave in; only because she had them before they married. IRS said that if they had been married during, it would have been his debt, also. Just something to think about. And again, laws vary state by state. (the above was in Texas)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As far as the loans go, I know of one couple: she obtained the loans years before they married. They divorced, and the IRS garnished his taxes two years later because she quit paying on them. He fought it, and they finally gave in; only because she had them before they married. IRS said that if they had been married during, it would have been his debt, also. Just something to think about. And again, laws vary state by state. (the above was in Texas)

That's seriously messed up.

 

[Caiter92]

As far as the loans go, I know of one couple: she obtained the loans years before they married. They divorced, and the IRS garnished his taxes two years later because she quit paying on them. He fought it, and they finally gave in; only because she had them before they married. IRS said that if they had been married during, it would have been his debt, also. Just something to think about. And again, laws vary state by state. (the above was in Texas)

Were her loans private or federal? I thought with federal, only the person taking them out was responsible for them unless someone had cosigned or they'd consolidated theirs together for repayment. Maybe that's a recent change though.

 

[missdarjeeling]

I asked a lawyer friend about that once, and it's pretty complicated. If loan money is used jointly, like if you live with your spouse and use loan money to pay those joint living expenses, they can make the argument that the debt is marital debt since both partners benefited from it. How long you've had the debt would also matter, since the longer you've had it, the longer both spouses have benefited from the increased earning power of the degree you got from it. A lot also depends on whether the degree is considered individual or marital property. In the state where I got married, professional degrees earned during marriage are considered marital property, but the same doesn't hold in other states. So if I had stayed there and gone to school there, the degree would be marital property and the debt likely would be also. Some of this stuff may be able to be hashed out in prenups or in postnups drafted before you actually take on the loans in the first place, but anyone who's worried about that should really talk to a lawyer to find out what is and isn't doable. Just because both people sign an agreement doesn't mean it'll hold up in court years later, so consulting a good lawyer is really important.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I asked a lawyer friend about that once, and it's pretty complicated. If loan money is used jointly, like if you live with your spouse and use loan money to pay those joint living expenses, they can make the argument that the debt is marital debt since both partners benefited from it. How long you've had the debt would also matter, since the longer you've had it, the longer both spouses have benefited from the increased earning power of the degree you got from it. A lot also depends on whether the degree is considered individual or marital property. In the state where I got married, professional degrees earned during marriage are considered marital property, but the same doesn't hold in other states. So if I had stayed there and gone to school there, the degree would be marital property and the debt likely would be also. Some of this stuff may be able to be hashed out in prenups or in postnups drafted before you actually take on the loans in the first place, but anyone who's worried about that should really talk to a lawyer to find out what is and isn't doable. Just because both people sign an agreement doesn't mean it'll hold up in court years later, so consulting a good lawyer is really important.

Another reason I'm becoming less and less amenable to the idea of ever getting full-on legally married. What a huge nutsack of stupid.

 

[Caiter92]

I asked a lawyer friend about that once, and it's pretty complicated. If loan money is used jointly, like if you live with your spouse and use loan money to pay those joint living expenses, they can make the argument that the debt is marital debt since both partners benefited from it. How long you've had the debt would also matter, since the longer you've had it, the longer both spouses have benefited from the increased earning power of the degree you got from it. A lot also depends on whether the degree is considered individual or marital property. In the state where I got married, professional degrees earned during marriage are considered marital property, but the same doesn't hold in other states. So if I had stayed there and gone to school there, the degree would be marital property and the debt likely would be also. Some of this stuff may be able to be hashed out in prenups or in postnups drafted before you actually take on the loans in the first place, but anyone who's worried about that should really talk to a lawyer to find out what is and isn't doable. Just because both people sign an agreement doesn't mean it'll hold up in court years later, so consulting a good lawyer is really important.

That's good to know. And also really ridiculous.

I knew other loans could effect other people if you weren't able to pay, but I didn't realize federal worked the same.

 

[that redhead]

Should veterinarians sign them? My fiancé is pretty insistent on it, but I didn't think it was applicable to us. He makes ~60k/year. His parents ~100k. My dad ~60k. Neither of us have been married before or have children. As of now I don't plan on being a practice owner. And he would never be left with paying my direct unsub loan/grad plus loan right?

Why is he insistent on it? If under the advice of legal counsel and if he has something worth protecting in the event of your divorce, I think it's fair to sign. If you're going to be spending more money to draw up the documents with legal counsel than you even have to protect I'm not sure it's worth it. If you haven't already consulted a lawyer about it, I would do so first.

 

[pp9]

Should veterinarians sign them? My fiancé is pretty insistent on it, but I didn't think it was applicable to us. He makes ~60k/year. His parents ~100k. My dad ~60k. Neither of us have been married before or have children. As of now I don't plan on being a practice owner. And he would never be left with paying my direct unsub loan/grad plus loan right?

I don't want to be negative or nosy, but is it possible that this is something his parents are pressuring him to do? Or, perhaps he has some sort asset he hasn't told you about or that his parents have stowed away for him that he hasn't gotten yet? I don't think a prenup is a bad thing either, but I feel you should be informed as to why your fiance wants it so badly. He has a right to be protected from your debt imo, but he should tell you that himself if that's the case. If there's another reason, he should explain this to you. If I felt I didn't know where the idea of prenup was coming from, I'd feel weird about it.

I recently found out my parents-in-law to be have expressed concern to their friends/family (seriously, these people drive me crazy) that I'm only marrying my fiance because he has a good job (not that he is 'wealthy' by any means) and I need help paying my loans. I would not be surprised if his parents tell him to get a prenup. I should have seen this coming because anytime I saw them before he proposed, I'm asked "How are you going to pay those loans? Wow, you are in a loooot of debt, you're going to repay that?" Honestly, it's like one of the only things they talk about when we're visiting. Nevermind that I had more money than he did when we started dating 🙄

 

[missdarjeeling]

Another reason I'm becoming less and less amenable to the idea of ever getting full-on legally married. What a huge nutsack of stupid.

I used to think it was insane, but I've come to view it a bit differently over time. If someone's helping pay for your joint living expenses with loan money, it's only fair that you should be partly responsible for some of that debt. You're getting something out of it even if you're not the one who took out the loans to begin with. If someone's helping to put you through professional school by supporting you and covering some of your expenses, it's only fair that this should be considered when dividing assets should you divorce.

Marriage, even common law marriage in places where that's a thing, is complicated and risky. I'm all about knowing what you're getting into and making the right choice for you. One of my in-laws has been married 4 times, and jesus, I can't even imagine entertaining the thought of getting married after going through 3 divorces, much less actually doing it. No thanks. If this one doesn't work out, I'm pretty much done.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I used to think it was insane, but I've come to view it a bit differently over time. If someone's helping pay for your joint living expenses with loan money, it's only fair that you should be partly responsible for some of that debt. You're getting something out of it even if you're not the one who took out the loans to begin with. If someone's helping to put you through professional school by supporting you and covering some of your expenses, it's only fair that this should be considered when dividing assets should you divorce.

Marriage, even common law marriage in places where that's a thing, is complicated and risky. I'm all about knowing what you're getting into and making the right choice for you. One of my in-laws has been married 4 times, and jesus, I can't even imagine entertaining the thought of getting married after going through 3 divorces, much less actually doing it. No thanks. If this one doesn't work out, I'm pretty much done.

Eh, I still don't really agree. My SO/husband/whatever paying half rent or helping paying for communal food/household items is not "helping put me through professional school" - they are no different than a roommate in that regard. I would never expect a roommate to be responsible for part of my debt.

I see what you're saying though - I'm just inherently biased. I was raised in a very financially independent manner (i.e. my folks were married for over thirty years and never combined money, for example) so stuff like that automatically makes my hackles go out.

 

[Awapi]

Another reason I'm becoming less and less amenable to the idea of ever getting full-on legally married. What a huge nutsack of stupid.

We looked into other options for quite a long time because I did not think marriage was for me. We ultimately settled on marriage for the legal protections it gave. I know it varies somewhat by state, but if we had remained unmarried then there could have been a whole host of problems if something happened to one of us and someone in our family contested the living partner's rights to property/assets/etc that were in the deceased partner's name (or even jointly named, they could contest the deceased relative's half). A legal domestic partnership in our state would really only give us medical rights and we are not planning to have children so we would not have that "validity" added to our relationship in the government's eyes.

Something different works for everyone and I think you can set up a legal framework with wills, etc that will work basically as good as marriage does, but it also depends on your circumstances. We each have a person in our immediate family that we are 100% sure would try to contest the rights in the case that something happened to one of us. Speaking just for myself, my estranged father successfully took the money that my grandparents left for me for vet school despite the fact he hadn't spoken to them in 14 years and their supposedly "air tight" will done by a well respected lawyer not only left the money to me but also specifically said it should NOT go to him. I probably could have fought him on it, but it was not worth the time, money, and stress of a legal battle and the risk that I would not win. Again, everyone should make the best choice for their circumstances. Ultimately not trusting our immediate family who could assert legal rights and generally wanting to make things easier for the surviving spouse if something happened made marriage the right choice for us.

Anyway, to bring it back to the prenup, haha - I'm in agreeance with others who think the legal aspect of marriage is part "business" arrangement as much as it is about love and so a prenup is often smart for protection of both parties. If you don't have a lot of resources going into the marriage then a prenup may not be necessary but honestly it wouldn't hurt you if it meant a lot to your partner. Also, check your state laws on division of property in the event of divorce. My now-husband and I reviewed them and were happy with what the law in our state said, so we decided the prenup wasn't needed though we did consider it.