Preventable CVA

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varmit

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Preventable CVA but who's at fault?

Case facts are as follows:

In 1999 a 67 year old male patient has mitral valve replacement (St. Jude Mechanical #31) maze procedure and double bypass. Surgery uneventfull. Thoracic surgeon sends letter to patients primary care physician informing him of the procedures and the requirement for lifelong anticoagulation (coumadin) titerated to an INR of (2.5-3.5). Primary care physician makes note in patients chart on the anticoagulation tracking chart which was allready in use for indication of atrial fib. Physician notes the valve replacement but never changes the therepuetic range from (2.0-3.0) to (2.5-3.5). Patient goes through cardiac rehab and resumes a healthy active life for the next 4.5 years. Golf three day's week, ball room dancing, gardening, etc. During the 4.5 years post surgery primary care physician maintains patient at a subtherepuetic INR ranging from (1.5-2.0) The majority of the INR readings were below 2.0 and the physician was only testing INR levels approx every 2 months usually without dosage increases. During a visit to the physician's office in 2004 the patient and physician discussed having a screening colonoscopy and the physician agreed that he should have one since he hadn't had one in the past. The colonoscopy was scheduled with a large gastroenterology group who in turn sent the preparation instructions through the mail to the patient. The instructions stated for patient to stop coumadin 4 full day's prior to procedure unless otherwise instructed by primary care physician. Patient recieved the instructions 2 weeks prior to the colonoscopy and the next day patient goes to primary care physician's office for his INR check and his INR was 1.5 and he tells the nurse that he was instructed to stop coumadin 4 day's prior to the colonoscopy. The nurse passes the information along to the physician and the instructions back from the physician are to have patient take a double dose of coumadin following the colonoscopy. At this point the physician doesn't have any interaction with the patient. The patient stops his coumadin 4 day's prior to colonoscopy. Colonoscopy is performed with no abnormalaties found. Patient goes home and suffers a massive right side CVA the same day. Upon admission to ER his INR was 1.1 and it was determined that the stroke was caused by a thrombus on his mechanical mitral valve sewing cuff most likely from the stopping of his coumadin. Patient is eventually transferred to a long term skilled nursing facility reduced to a bed and wheel chair until his death 28 months later.

Several months following the stroke it was determined that the patient didn't have a consult with the gastro prior to them having him stop taking couamdin and his first meeting with the gastro was the morning of the colonoscopy. It was also determined that there was no communications between the gastro and primary care physician concerning any of the patients conditions. The gastro was not aware of the patients mech heart valve or coumadin until the morning of the procedure. Niether the gastro nor the primary care physician had any discussion with the patient concerning the risk's of stopping his coumadin nor did they have any discussion of bridging the patient.
 
Nope

I'm not a lawyer. The patient was my father. I have logged several thousand hours of research in the arena of anticoagulation management/perioperative anticoagulation management especially dealing with prosthetic heart valves. This is an ever increasing problem worldwide especially as the population grows and more and more patients are anticoagulated. It seems that a large majority of physicians are not up to date with current published guidelines which in itself is a dilema. Most physicians practicing today were trained prior to 1990 when the PTT test was the standard and the ptt used was 1.5 to 2.5 times the control which by today's INR standard would have been an INR of approx 5.0 to 10.0 which is why there were so many bleeding incidents related to coumadin/warfarin. That's why so many doctor's fear bleeding so much compared to thromboembolism. Spontanious bleeding while anticoagulated with coumadin/warfarin is very rare these day's. If a patient does bleed it's usually from an underlying condition. Remember, you can replace blood cells but you can't replace brain cells.

Regardless of what medical field you go into, you will be involved with a patient that is anticoagulated. Hopefully you will up to date with the appropriate guidelines.

At some point in time you should read the Seventh ACCP Conference on Atntithrombotic/Antcoagulation Management. There are also published guidelines dealing with High Bleed Risk Procedures and Low Bleed Risk Procedures such as those published by the ASGE in 1998 and again in 2002 dealing with Perioperative Anticoagulation Management.

What happened with my father isn't that uncommon these day's. Just trying to help in preventing the same thing happening to other patients.
 
i've seen this first hand --
patient who has afib and clearly a vasculopath -- stops his coumadin for 2-3 days before a dental procedure. night after the dental procedure, comes in with a TIA -- luckily for him, his dysarthria improves and he goes home...

i see him a few months later and this time he stopped his coumadin in preparation for some other minor procedure, and he comes in the night before the procedure with hemiparesis...

i'm not sure anyone is at fault...unfortunately this person has significant medical problems...

it seems like in your example, even though your father was subtherapeutic, he was in good health for years... the problem occured when he stopped his coumadin for his colonscopy -- the question then becomes should one stop the coumadin for preventive testing? how can you predict who will have a CVA when stopping coumadin for a few days?
 
I am very very sorry to hear about your father. My sympathies go out to you and your family.

It might be hard to have a helpful discussion about this on this board for a number of reasons: 1) there were a lot of people involved over a long period of time and 2) The limitations of an electronic medium to discuss an emotional, weighty, complicated M and M.

I'm curious why you posted on the EM board. We are not really experts in managing Coumadin (thank God, in the little experience I've had with this drug it seems like following INR's is like chasing a carrot). GI and FP were the services involved, right?

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss.
 
Forgot something I wanted to add. You said that spontaneous bleeding is rare, and I agree. I think what I worry about is excessive bleeding that occurs as a result of a minor trauma (so not spontaneous) - i.e. fall down on buttocks and have retroperitoneal bleed, hit head and get intracranial bleed.

I had a patient as a third year student , tharapeutic on Coumadin. My attending felt the patient was being a little lazy, not getting out of bed at all, and told me to walk the patient up and down the hall. I did. The patient fell backward onto his buttocks, got a retroperitoneal bleed, and went to the trauma ICU. It was the worst day of my medical school life. He ended up being fine, but needless to say I will never walk a patient without at least two people - 1 person on each side of the patient!
 
I can't believe you are implying in your post that older physicians are not familiar with warfarin. I find that hard to imagine considering how many patients they maintain on warfarin.

Regardless, it is very common for gastroenterologists to never meet with a patient prior to a screening exam. I believe your father failed to ask his primary care physician if he should continue taking the warfarin.

Patients undergoing surgical procedures -- including colonoscopy -- should have their warfarin and aspirin held, unless contraindicated. Even when contraindicated, there are other options to bridge the patient over (e.g., low molecular weight heparin). Something as benign as a colonoscopy could turn into a nightmare with an INR >1.7. There would be no chance of removing any polyps found at such a high INR, and if an accidental perforation occurred (a known complication of the procedure with rates reported from 0.5-1%), then bleeding could be uncontrollable. This is particularly true in an outpatient setting where most routine colonoscopies are performed. The outpatient surgical suite would not have anything available to reverse the INR.

I'm sorry to say, but I find no fault in the gastroenterologist, the primary care physician, or the cardiothoracic surgeon unless he was never told of his need for life-long anticoagulation when his heart valve was replaced. That would be unheard of as most surgeons explicitly tell patients this.
 
I can't believe you are implying in your post that older physicians are not familiar with warfarin. I find that hard to imagine considering how many patients they maintain on warfarin.

Regardless, it is very common for gastroenterologists to never meet with a patient prior to a screening exam. I believe your father failed to ask his primary care physician if he should continue taking the warfarin.

Patients undergoing surgical procedures -- including colonoscopy -- should have their warfarin and aspirin held, unless contraindicated. Even when contraindicated, there are other options to bridge the patient over (e.g., low molecular weight heparin). Something as benign as a colonoscopy could turn into a nightmare with an INR >1.7. There would be no chance of removing any polyps found at such a high INR, and if an accidental perforation occurred (a known complication of the procedure with rates reported from 0.5-1%), then bleeding could be uncontrollable. This is particularly true in an outpatient setting where most routine colonoscopies are performed. The outpatient surgical suite would not have anything available to reverse the INR.

I'm sorry to say, but I find no fault in the gastroenterologist, the primary care physician, or the cardiothoracic surgeon unless he was never told of his need for life-long anticoagulation when his heart valve was replaced. That would be unheard of as most surgeons explicitly tell patients this.

First of all Im not saying that older physicians are not familiar with warfarin/coumadin. What I'm saying is that a lot of them haven't kept up with the changes in published guidelines. Read the Harvard studies concerning physicians trained prior to 1990. Just because they are managing anticoagulation doesn't mean that they are familiar with the current guidelines. Do you really think a patient with a mechanical mitral valve should have his/hers coumadin stopped for a low bleed risk procedure? If so you need to read the current perioperative guidelines. As far as an INR >1.7 and polyp removal you need to read the studies. It depends on the size of the polyp. Current guidelines issued by the ASGE state that for low bleed risk procedures such as screening colonoscopy, perform with patient fully anticoagulated with or without mucos (sp?) biopsy. My father did go to his primary care physician about this issue and there was a miscommunication between the nurse and the doctor. As far as outpatient facility, the colonoscopy was performed at a hospital asc. I'm not getting on your case but you should research and read current publications dealing with this situation. You might be surprised how much it contradicts what you have been taught. As far as a gastroenterologist never meeting with a patient before screening colonoscopy, in most cases that's ok. If an accidental perforation occurs it's not going to matter that much as far as an INR of 1.0 or 1.7. The patient is going to bleed regardless. At least the bleeding can be stopped. If there is no perforation and no bleeding but the patient has a stroke, you can't replace brain cells. You have to look at both sides of the equation and discuss with patient and the primary care physician to make a proper decision conerning perioperative anticoagulation. Rember "first do no harm". Again not to get on your case but your making statements without being familiar with guidelines that have been published since 1998.
 
"Spontanious bleeding while anticoagulated with coumadin/warfarin is very rare these day's."

I have issue with this.

Not with the spontaneous bleeding part, I would actually agree with that.

My issue is that patients don't live in padded rooms, curled around a pillow in the fetal position while wearing a football helmet and not moving.

Patients are ambulatory and most of those folks are older. As you get older the bridging veins get stretched due to atrophy and subdural hematomas are not a rare event, even in patients who are not anticoagulated.

Throw in coumadin, heparin, plavix and even ASA then you have an almost daily occurence for me to run into one of these folks.

Not rare by any stretch of the imagination.
 
I hate to feed the troll (because trolling is what I call when you come to a board for professional interaction to find out who you can blame for your father's death), but I can't help but say a few things:

If there is an accidental perforation, it matters tremendously if the INR in 1 or 1.7. Most of the perfs that I have seen (likely because I work in the ED and not the GI lab) present hours after the scope, therefore you have hours to bleed into your belly. Or die quietly at home.

To bring this back to a topic that is relevant to an Emergency Medicine Forum. Medicine (Emergency Medicine more than some, but all types of medicine) involves a lot of pattern recognition. The importance of M.D. training involves seeing multiple presentations of the same problems and multiple problems with the same presentation.

It is easy for you (or your lawyer) to go backwards and come up with the right treatment option that would not have led to the same results. It is even possible for you to find guidelines that support what you would do. However, as someone in the trenches, I can tell you that I have seen a lot of bleeding complication and not as many thromboembolic events. I can tell you that it is pretty standard where I am to hold coumadin prior to procedures being done.

Honestly, it is nine years later and you have become a pseudoexpert on anticoagulation. If your father had died from a perf, a massive undetected cancer (because of delay in getting a colonoscopy), or a bleeding complication from his coumadin, I think you might still be here telling us how to do our jobs (as a pseudoexpert on colonoscopy or oncology instead). You problem now is not "who is at fault" but "how can I get the professional help to get over my loss"

Beriberi, but you can call me Thiamine Deficiency.

P.S. I am sorry for your loss and not insensitive to your suffering - my grandmother died shortly after a routine orthopedic procedure due to changes in her coumadin administration and faulty decision making about how to anticoagulate her.
 
Honestly, it is nine years later and you have become a pseudoexpert on anticoagulation. If your father had died from a perf, a massive undetected cancer (because of delay in getting a colonoscopy), or a bleeding complication from his coumadin, I think you might still be here telling us how to do our jobs (as a pseudoexpert on colonoscopy or oncology instead). You problem now is not "who is at fault" but "how can I get the professional help to get over my loss"

OP, I too send my condolences on your loss, it is a difficult thing to lose a close family member, and something my family and I are currently dealing with as well.

I agree with beriberi that while it is easy to research anticoagulation and become well-informed on the data, it does not lend oneself to being able to comment knowledgeably on clinical decisions. Nobody on this forum can necessarily defend any of the physicians involved as we simply don't have all the facts. But coincidingly, I think its wrong to blame them based on your research alone. Clinical decisions are complex and cannot be reduced to one simple number and desired range. Most medical decisions are the result of calculating the risks and benefits. As has been mentioned previously, there are associated risks and unforeseeable possibilities, many of which are out of our control.

Finally, to make one correction to your initial post, the INR reflects the PT, not PTT.

Again, sorry for your loss and I hope you and your family are able to experience healing soon. I also hope you find the discussion on this forum helpful and understanding of your concerns.
 
You have to look at both sides of the equation and discuss with patient and the primary care physician to make a proper decision conerning perioperative anticoagulation.
Why would we as Emergency Physicians need to do that? I think you've stumbled into the wrong forum for your concerns. We don't do elective surgical procedures. Maybe you should go try to educate the primary care and surgical folks :meanie:.
 
Do you really think a patient with a mechanical mitral valve should have his/hers coumadin stopped for a low bleed risk procedure? If so you need to read the current perioperative guidelines. As far as an INR >1.7 and polyp removal you need to read the studies. It depends on the size of the polyp. Current guidelines issued by the ASGE state that for low bleed risk procedures such as screening colonoscopy, perform with patient fully anticoagulated with or without mucos (sp?) biopsy. I'm not getting on your case but you should research and read current publications dealing with this situation. You might be surprised how much it contradicts what you have been taught. As far as a gastroenterologist never meeting with a patient before screening colonoscopy, in most cases that's ok. If an accidental perforation occurs it's not going to matter that much as far as an INR of 1.0 or 1.7. The patient is going to bleed regardless. At least the bleeding can be stopped. If there is no perforation and no bleeding but the patient has a stroke, you can't replace brain cells. You have to look at both sides of the equation and discuss with patient and the primary care physician to make a proper decision conerning perioperative anticoagulation. Rember "first do no harm". Again not to get on your case but your making statements without being familiar with guidelines that have been published since 1998.

No offense taken. I would put more merit in your diatribe if you were a physician. I am sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, it does put you in a bad situation where you center on research to support your cause and ignore research that rejects it, whether you do so intentionally or unintentionally. Likewise, any person who disagrees with you is suddenly arrogant and has an ego problem (as per your private message).
 
Hello all. I can assure you that Varmit is the “real deal” who has taken up a cause since his father’s stroke and subsequent death to try and bring the medical community in the US into the 21st century on it’s knowledge of ACT (Anticoagulation Therapy). He is a regular member of our forum www.valvereplacement.com (VR) and I encourage you all to take a look. It is a forum established for people who have or are having valve replacement or repair. We deal daily with the frustration of a medical community that still manages ACT with old information and myth. As Emergency Physicians it’s very important you have a current working knowledge of how ACT is managed. You would not believe some of the things we read from our members. We have a few sayings at VR, “Doctors fear bleeding, patients fear stroke.” And “It’s easier to replace blood cells than brain cells.” I encourage you to read the Active Lifestyles forum and see what some of our ACT members are doing and to read the Anticoagulation forum to see the knowledge that those of us that have been on ACT for years have acquired.

I also encourage you to visit www.warfarinfo.com. This is a site run by Al Lodwick. He is pharmacist and one of the premier experts in the field of ACT. He has just retired from his own Coumadin Clinic and is now spending a great deal of time traveling the country giving ACT seminars to those in the medical field. It is a generally known fact on VR that the US is behind Europe in it’s ACT management knowledge and protocol and we deal almost daily at VR with significant errors in ACT management. Most recently, one of our members was told by his doctor that he should stop warfarin for 3 days in order to get it out of his system and start all over again because his INR was not stable. I would hope you all know that stopping warfarin for 3 days puts you at an INR of a non-anticoagulated individual, 1.0. A Cleveland Clinic cardiac nurse told one of our members that he could no longer use a regular razor. We get the serious to the ridiculous every week.

As Emergency Room physicians, please know that people on ACT would much rather have a bleed stopped with fresh-frozen plasma than Vitamin K. It’s a huge struggle to get the INR to therapeutic range after Vitamin K has been used. Because it is stored in fat cells, it’s effects are much longer lasting than ffp and keeps people in the hospital longer, or on bridging longer, as they try to get the INR back in-range.

For background, I am a 49 year-old woman and have had my St. Jude mitral valve for over 16 years. I have been home testing for 5 years (my current monitor is INRatio) and I also self-dose, with the full approval of my cardiologist. (If diabetics can home test and self-dose, so can we. It’s not rocket science.) My range is 2.5-3.5, I currently take 76 mg of warfarin a week and when a dose is held, my INR drops like a rock so I never hold for anything less than 6.0 and don’t make a dosage adjustment for anything between 2.3 and 4.0. I have never had a bleed that required medical intervention (and I’ve had some pretty good falls and cuts) or a stroke. My last 6.0 was about 2 weeks ago while I was traveling in France and it’s anyone’s guess as to why. I held a dose, took half a dose, then resumed my normal dose and was at 2.7 within 3 days. My travel schedule was never interrupted. I don’t give a moment’s thought to what I eat regarding my INR, because what we eat does not have a large impact on an INR (other than the high K nutritional products). I have adult beverages regularly (not daily!), but limit myself to two – for more reasons than just my INR!

I thank you for your hospitality here. Each doctor we educate on ACT is a step in the right direction. It may not be knowledge you use daily as EP’s, but maybe someday someone will present themselves for your care and a bit of what was posted here will be recalled. Maybe one day you’ll have a patient in for something not bleeding or stroke related, but find they are on ACT and have an INR of 1.5. Maybe you’ll be able to prevent a stroke in that patient by bringing attention to the fact that they are not therapeutic and help them take steps to become therapeutic. If one person in Varmit’s father’s chain of medical care over the years had noticed that his INR was being maintained too low, his father might be with him today. You have the opportunity in your practice to make a difference in an area that you may not even think you should be too concerned about. Don’t assume that the person you are seeing, that happens to take warfarin, has a doctor that must be managing it correctly. By just running one small test, you may save a life. Unless the patient has an On-X valve and is in the trial study, anything below 2.0 is too low and needs attention. Letting a one-time patient's low INR go unquestioned because it's not what they are there to be treated for may not be your medical responsibility, but as physicians one small act of concern can make all the difference in that patient's life. It would have in Varmit's father's life.
 
No offense taken. I would put more merit in your diatribe if you were a physician.

I have to say that this is the problem that those of us that take ACT run up against all the time. We see physicians who don't bother to bring themselves up to speed with current ACT protocol and pull the "you're not a doctor" line on us. We encourage people to go elsewhere when they get that response. It can mean their life. Many people with chronic illness or issues today do bother educating themselves about their illnesses or issues. A 75 year-old may not be able to tell you about their COPD but I can assure you that many 45 year-olds will be able to go toe to toe with most physicians about their disease and demonstrate a significant working knowledge. We have a little thing called the Internet now that allows the average person to access a lot of knowledge. I know that sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You get a bad x-ray report and you hop on the internet to self-diagnose. That can be a pain for physicians and not a good thing for the individual. But those of us with chronic issues that we've dealt with for years are not in that catagory. We spend a lot of time learning about our issues. We appreciate it when the knowledge we acquire is respected.
 
i've seen this first hand --
patient who has afib and clearly a vasculopath -- stops his coumadin for 2-3 days before a dental procedure. night after the dental procedure, comes in with a TIA -- luckily for him, his dysarthria improves and he goes home...

i see him a few months later and this time he stopped his coumadin in preparation for some other minor procedure, and he comes in the night before the procedure with hemiparesis...

i'm not sure anyone is at fault...unfortunately this person has significant medical problems...

it seems like in your example, even though your father was subtherapeutic, he was in good health for years... the problem occured when he stopped his coumadin for his colonscopy -- the question then becomes should one stop the coumadin for preventive testing? how can you predict who will have a CVA when stopping coumadin for a few days?

As far as stopping coumadin for preventive testing/elective procedures there has to be communications between the physicians involved along with the patient. Depending on the indication for coumadin and the risk of bleeding, the options of just holding, bridge, or continuing while anticoagulated need to be discussed with the patient. It is a delima in predicting who will have a CVA when stopping coumadin and that's why it needs to be discussed. There is a big difference in stopping a patients coumadin when they are allready at an INR 1.5 than there would be if they are in range of 2.5-3.5 when coumadin is stopped.

I realize that most of you won't ever be directly involved in the overall anticoagulation management of the patient but you will be involved when there is an adverse event.
 
We see physicians who don't bother to bring themselves up to speed with current ACT protocol and pull the "you're not a doctor" line on us. We encourage people to go elsewhere when they get that response.

So take your own advice and go elsewhere.

I'm crying uncle. I give up. This is simply not worth my time. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.
 
First of all Im not saying that older physicians are not familiar with warfarin/coumadin. What I'm saying is that a lot of them haven't kept up with the changes in published guidelines. Read the Harvard studies concerning physicians trained prior to 1990. Just because they are managing anticoagulation doesn't mean that they are familiar with the current guidelines. Do you really think a patient with a mechanical mitral valve should have his/hers coumadin stopped for a low bleed risk procedure? If so you need to read the current perioperative guidelines. As far as an INR >1.7 and polyp removal you need to read the studies. It depends on the size of the polyp. Current guidelines issued by the ASGE state that for low bleed risk procedures such as screening colonoscopy, perform with patient fully anticoagulated with or without mucos (sp?) biopsy. My father did go to his primary care physician about this issue and there was a miscommunication between the nurse and the doctor. As far as outpatient facility, the colonoscopy was performed at a hospital asc. I'm not getting on your case but you should research and read current publications dealing with this situation. You might be surprised how much it contradicts what you have been taught. As far as a gastroenterologist never meeting with a patient before screening colonoscopy, in most cases that's ok. If an accidental perforation occurs it's not going to matter that much as far as an INR of 1.0 or 1.7. The patient is going to bleed regardless. At least the bleeding can be stopped. If there is no perforation and no bleeding but the patient has a stroke, you can't replace brain cells. You have to look at both sides of the equation and discuss with patient and the primary care physician to make a proper decision conerning perioperative anticoagulation. Rember "first do no harm". Again not to get on your case but your making statements without being familiar with guidelines that have been published since 1998.

According to the medical literature you are probably correct on anticoagulation and colonoscopy:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/b371606323165058/
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S001651070600397X
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S001651070600397X

...and there probably is a role for bridging ac:

http://nyu.library.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ijcp/2007/00000061/00000002/art00010


But it the question is---why are you posting this here for us to see? A couple of clicks above us are the internists who make these particular decisions. We as emergency physicians are not in the business of the day to day management of coumadin nor the scheduling of elective procedures.
 
So take your own advice and go elsewhere.

I'm crying uncle. I give up. This is simply not worth my time. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.


Be of good cheer, I don't intend to hang around long. This wasn't an argument or to chastise, but seen as a chance to inform upcoming physicians in an area that much of the medical community feels that the 20 year old protocol is good enough. People who deal with issues where medication means life or death, as in those of us with mechanical valves, care that the physicians we encounter in the ER or in the office have a correct understanding of the medication and it's protocol. Perhaps one day someone with a mechanical mitral valve will present themselves to you, stroking out with an INR of 1.3 and you think back to this and realize that it wasn't the valve risking their life, but the likely possibility that their ACT may have been mismanaged.

I am still hopeful that our future doctors, now in medical school, don't have the same lack of caring or concern that the attitude in the quoted post suggests. Thank you to those who gave some thought to what Varmit and I have posted here. It will only help to make you better doctors.
 
How do you think we feel?

Acknowledging that your patient may have a pretty good level of knowledge regarding their health concern does not denigrate the knowledge you acquire, nor does it intimate that we, as patients, believe you know less. But the days of patients blindly following their doctors orders are pretty much gone and I'm pretty sure most physicians in practice would tell you this. If you take questioning as an insult, you're in for a very long and unhappy career. I have had some wonderful doctors who have been more than willing to work in partnership with me and are grateful for my level of knowledge on my valve disease, and have encouraged me in my pursuit of that knowledge. It makes their discussions with me much easier, on a higher level of understanding and allow us to plan for treatment we both are invested in.
 
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