Private practice vs institutional

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KHE

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I am an optometrist in a medium sized city. One of my patients, a psychiatrist in private practice came for his eye exam and I asked him how business was and he shook his head and said he was completely swamped. Two other local psychiatrists had closed up their private practices and were both working in hospitals now.

I was surprised at that. I asked him if it was possible to hire a new psychiatry graduate to help with the load and he explained that most new psychiatry grads want institutional work. He said that many practicing psychiatrists also wanted to leave private practice.

Again, I was surprised. I always knew that I wanted to be in private practice so I guess I sort of look at things through that prism but I would have thought that psychiatrists as a group would have been MORE desirous of private practice.

I guess I'm quite wrong about that.

What do you all think? Are many of you looking to have your own practices one day, or work institutional? Why or why not?
 
This opinion might be contrarian relative to much of what has been expressed on SDN in general--but I see the business of medicine as just so blasted complicated, that I really LIKE working FOR someone else, especially as in my case the "someone else" is a major non-profit multi-specialty practice. I know that there's someone else worrying about my scheduling, call backs, billing & coding & reimbursement issues, support staff, phones and computers, overseeing regulatory compliance, and making sure I have coverage to go on vacation and attend CME conferences. There are the occasional bureacratic pains, but the collegiality and security more than makes up for it. Perhaps (and only perhaps) my income might be higher in real private practice, but I'm not sure that it would be worth the effort, given all that is provided by the institution.
 
Most doctors I know have no business or human resources experience. Being a captain of a sports team, an executive office holder of a union, an owner of a business is nothing like being able to score well on a USMLE.

As most of us already know, the gauge medschools use to accept candidates and rate their performance is overwhelmingly simply by their ability to do a multiple choice test. Being able to do such a test tells me nothing of one's ability to relate to people and lead them in a profitable manner.

If anything, most people I know getting into medical school lack leadership experience, and even if you had it, the attrition process of medical school for some people tends to push these skills out of their brain and replace it with medical data.
 
I've been hearing things like this lately (mostly on SDN, but also in the "real world") and have also been wondering why.

It seems that psych is relatively well positioned for the future, with many private practices not being insurance providers and simply charging cash (although many will file insurance as a courtesy to the patient), and with the prices I've seen floating around, it seems psych docs can stand to do very well in a private practice, especially if they hire a couple other providers farther down the road.

All I can figure is that: a) the prices I've seen (200-300/hr for child) are too high or b) that its hard to keep cash paying patients. Or both.

I know there are headaches involved in running a business (I used to run a music store, recording studio, guitar lession business, and rock band...all of which required management skills as well as musical ones), but they're not so bad, especially considering the freedom it gives you.
 
I'm opening a private practice even if means making as much as a midlevel. I can't fathom being stuck in the bureaucracy of large systems any more. They do not cater to inegenuity or efficient ideas. As they increase in size they reflect the government more, and laziness ensues. I can't stand it. I'm a hard worker and strive for effeciency.

Private practice here I come. Three and a half more years.
 
Owning a practice has been a goal since before medical school. I've personally seen the treachery involved in hospital politics and don't like the way government interventions are going to dominate all hospital based practices soon. Also recognizing proceduralists still navigate the ship, I'd rather set out on my own life raft.
 
Remember that being in the private sector doesn't necessarily mean better practice. There's too many private practices out there that are actually grindhouses where doctors see patients for only a few minutes at a time, give some bogus diagnosis and give out a medication.

6 months later, Depakote, Zyprexa, Wellbutrin, Seroquel, and what have you later, the patient is no better.

Hate the state bureaucracy? I'm hating seeing private practices do the above crap. It still happens in the state, it still happens in private practice.

If you, however, are into working hard and ingenuity, there's definitely a niche for you in private practice (just remember to do good practice) but also in a bigger organization. Several organizations needs a hatchet guy to act as the big bad mothertucker and tell off lazy doctors. We had one in the state hospital who headed UR (utilization review). The guy was a former military Colonel and he knew his stuff. I had no problem with that guy reaming a few attendings here and there.
 
Owning a practice has been a goal since before medical school. I've personally seen the treachery involved in hospital politics and don't like the way government interventions are going to dominate all hospital based practices soon. Also recognizing proceduralists still navigate the ship, I'd rather set out on my own life raft.

But what if you don't like outpatient psychiatry? You'd sacrifice type of practice for venue alone?
 
Your concerns are warranted. There is a possibility over the next few years I'll discover I like a certain type of practice more than outpatient. This is a possibility. I could be content to maybe happy in a lot of specialties, even those outside of psychiatry. However, I look to the smaller details that I feel can predict longevity of a type of practice, and for me that is private practice. Michaelrack also points out the viable option of doing both.

Here is a random collection in no clear organization of thoughts I've had shaping my desire for private practice.

-colleagues. When you aren't the boss doing the hiring and firing you will be stuck with people who are lazy and incompetent. In private practice, as Whopper has aluded to the practice he might take over, you can get a staff that you change your mind set of wanting to work for you, but you wanting to work for them and give an excellent working environment. I have seen in different businesses the difference the world can be when you work with people you enjoy and want good things for. That significantly contributes to wanting to go to work long after the excitement and buzz of the work itself is gone. Life is about people. When you are employed there is less of a sense of permanency and it filters into the quality of work relations.

-Ownership. In private practice I can take ownership of my patients. I don't have to worry about others cross covering and tinkering with the ultimate medication goals or not being aware of the nuisances of a patient and setting treatment back. I will be on call 24/7 but I can handle that persistent low level stress. I also like that likelihood of being called after hours is much less than if I were in a group practice and hammered with calls/admission/refills for 24hrs straight every few days. No thanks. I'd like to spread it out which a solo private practice can do.

-Money. Cash only. I will get to choose what my value is – and not the insurance companies. I will get to choose who gets charity care and not the government or insurance companies. I can choose who gets reduced rates without worrying about which insurance contracts I just violated. I don't need to worry about over/underbilling with the government and being imprisoned as a result of it or being fined exorbitantly. It is rewarding to me to know I'm not getting screwed against my will.

-Less meetings. I have seen academic medicine from a resident perspective and observing my own schedule and that of attendings, it is filled with constant meetings. What a waste. No thanks.

-Ingenuity/technology. I can implement telepsychiatry if I desire. I can choose my own EMR or home design if I wish. I can have my own pixis machine and formulary for dispensing. I can implement email, apps, phones, websites, and other medias as much or as little as I choose without having to have meetings and meetings and discussions with institutional IT people only to get a run around of bureaucracy. I won't be limited by senior partners who have technological deficiencies because of their age and refusal to enter the technological era.

-Office. It will be designed by me. The decorations, ambiance, and overall feel will be set to my specifications rather than what the hospital is willing to give or furnish.

-Health insurance. I can choose what works for me and my future family best. I can also use HSA's to my advantage for establishing with cash only PCPs. I won't be limited by the few options an employer offers.

-Soft benefits of tax deductions for vehicles and other things.

-As much or as little vacation as I require limited by the very obvious consequences to the practice.

-Beating the rush. As the healthcare system implodes under the weight of being an unfunded mandate of nation collapsing proportions I will have already established myself in the cash/private practice arena. Most, not all physicians, will find themselves reversing the trend of being employed physicians and struggling to hang their own shingle.

-Pride/Quality. Pride of ownership. There is pride in preserving the difference in quality of practice and education when compared to midlevels. The government and insurance companies care nothing for this. This is partly related in being able to spend the time with patients, which I will do even at the cost of a lower income. However, limited overhead and efficiency in other arenas can compensate this drop. I don't have to worry about meeting quotas, I need only to practice. I won't have to label a borderline as a bipolar for the sake of getting paid. I won't have to be constricted to the DSM for diagnosing to simply get paid. I can focus on the patient and in the rare occasions where a V code or something else is more appropriate I can give that diagnosis. I will also fight harder for my patients because they are MY PATIENTS, not the universities, not the clinics, not community mental health centers, but mine.

-Investment. I can invest resources how I choose. Rather than attending a committee or drafting proposals or begging for certain things I can simply do it by taking a cut in my take home pay. If I want to purchase a TMS, I can do it. I want to buy the latest ECT machine I can do it.

-Speaking. If I want to be a speaker I can do it, and will be limited only by my conscious and not arbitrary rules of an institution.

-Not alone. Private practice isn't a lonely endeavor anymore. We have places like SDN, and even better SERMO where you can do ‘curbside' consults with other colleagues to point one in the direction for literature searches or even direct treatment.
 
You might want to consider doing part time work in an institution and private practice. That way you can still get benefits, possibly a pension and retirement package, and still get what you want in a private practice. You may also want to partner up with some other psychiatrists to reduce the overhead.

Working in an institution is also like having free advertising. It gets you place on the map and other doctors find out who you are. Where I did residency, by the time you worked there about a year, over 50% of the doctors in the county have heard of you in the county and know they can refer you patients.

I still don't know WTF I'm going to do with all the career offers I got. I got right now about 7. I just got offered another one at a very respected institution. A former mentor of mine had a meeting with me a few days ago and laid it on very thick that he wants me heading an inpatient unit at the university hospital. I know it's a good problem but it is frustrating seeing people and then having to tell them no. The only thing I do know if the private practice where I work now is not my own and I think I could do my own better, so I likely will not be at that place for too long.
 
Some good advice there Whopper. Although the locations I'm looking at won't have a University very close, and the one that does is across the state border. Retirement wise I have paranoia about the state of the economy and Wall Street that currently I don't have any 401k. I'm proverbally pocketing the money in a Folgers can. Our economy/nation is only in the eye of the storm. All I've seen in the news over the past few months is how states can't afford the size of their promised pensions. I would rather not count on the government or even an organization to be my retirement source. I'm quite capable of emulating the ant in the children's book. I still remember the stories from Depression era grandparents.

I have some friends in non-psych specialties who will be finishing the same time as myself and our current plan is to open a practice in the same building for overhead reduction. But even if that doesn't pan out, I'll start out literally solo doing it all myself until the patient panel picks up. Moon lighting funds will be saved from the upcoming years to live off of while the practice becomes self sufficient to pay the bills. I'm a fruggle, simple, miserly man who won't need much. As long as I am in the black within a few months for the business and living expenses I won't care about take home pay.

I want freedom.
 
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I'm curious as to how contractual non-compete clauses factor into this situation?

You might want to consider doing part time work in an institution and private practice. That way you can still get benefits, possibly a pension and retirement package, and still get what you want in a private practice. You may also want to partner up with some other psychiatrists to reduce the overhead.
 
Depends on the institution. Some will not let you work anywhere else. Others have a distance clause. Others don't care other than specifically mentioning to the institution where else you work.

Thiese things do make a difference. If I take the job at the university, I can't do private practice.
 
Private practice can be more constraining than an institution. Yes you are your own boss but you have more responsibilities. If you take vacation in an institution, they have to give it to you so long as you follow the rules (e.g. gave them enough advance warning). In PP, you might not be able to do these things as much as you'd like. Taking time off, if you're the only doctor in the practice, effectively shuts down the entire operation. Remember, you're responsible to the patients and the employees.

The employees are another thing. If you want to be a good boss, these people will become your responsibility, especially if they gave years of good service. You just can't pack your bags and leave if you get a better job offer. (Well I guess you can but then you're not being a good boss.) If you have employees that are loyal, do good work, and are competent, they deserve more than a boss that will only treat them as a resource.

IMHO, the job with the biggest amount of freedom is a locum tenen, but doing that decreases the odds of getting benefits. PP is what you want if you want to be in charge of a small business servicing outpatients. If you want to be in charge of something big....you can eventually build a practice into something bigger (That'll take time) or work in an institution and get into administration.
 
so the weird thing is that at my institution (large tertiary center), most the academic faculty also have a private practice on the side, so their main thing (research, inpatient training units, whatever) is balanced by a small PP, which sounds like the best arrangement. Is this kind of thing just very unusual in most places in the country?
 
so the weird thing is that at my institution (large tertiary center), most the academic faculty also have a private practice on the side, so their main thing (research, inpatient training units, whatever) is balanced by a small PP, which sounds like the best arrangement. Is this kind of thing just very unusual in most places in the country?

That is a big "no no" where I am--major academic center. I still think I would prefer to do my clinical work through the academic center to avoid the hassle of dealing with overhead, insurance, etc. But it would be nice to have the option to at least consider it.
 
It's going to likely vary depending on the local institution. Working for the state, all I have to do is tell them where else I work. Work for the university in my area-You can't do anything else without their permission, and then they'll make arrangements to work at that place by licensing you out, so technically you're still their employee wherever else you work. Work for a highly respected private institution in the area, you can't do anything outside of their organization.
 
so the weird thing is that at my institution (large tertiary center), most the academic faculty also have a private practice on the side, so their main thing (research, inpatient training units, whatever) is balanced by a small PP, which sounds like the best arrangement. Is this kind of thing just very unusual in most places in the country?

it's common in academia. although it's called private practice, it's not the same thing as private practice.
 
Interesting to see some insights into how the whole private/practice institutional debate works in your field.

Regarding working in academia and having a private practice on the side, my experience with that has been that the academic institutions don't care about it as long as you don't use your affiliation with the academic center in advertising to poach their/your own patients.

Also, I am a partner in a two doctor private practice. That was always my goal. Working for someone else was just never going to work for me, though I have done it in the past. Yes, I do get paid "last" in the sense that everyone else gets paid before me but when I get paid, I get paid more. lol.

Also, having a partner allows for vacation coverage etc. etc. so I take as much vacation as I want, when I want.

As far as dealing with overhead/insurance, I don't do that either. I delegate that to someone much better at it than I am. I just reap the benefit from it. 👍
 
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